Please school me on PP and AP

[Tonyfsu21]

What's the big deal w/ Patek & AP? Why are they so coveted? I guess I just don't get it. I would take my 116619LB any day of the week over anything either of those two brands puts out. Am I missing something? Neither is as functional as my submariner.... With that being said, someone please sell me on either brand because I'm open to expanding my collection but I just need to feel good about it. Nothing says "satisfaction" like a PM Rolex Sub IMHO.

[MCO1]

I don't own one but I respect both as great pieces of horology. Rolex is like Mercedes and PP and AP are like Rolls Royce different ownership experiences. I cannot sell you on the brands because I will probably never have the desire to actually own one myself. I am quite content admiring them from afar and wearing my Rolexes without fear of damage or service costs.

The same question could be asked about Rolex from a Tag, Longines or Oris owner. I guess it is all about what we value and prefer.

[Heff]

It's just your personal taste brother. I am personally not a fan of AP, and there are a few Pateks that I do like, but it's all personal preference. Rolex by far interests me more than any other brand as well.


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[GB-man]

Go try some on in person at Bal Barbour. They may sing or they may not. End of story.

[jon_jon]

Rolex makes excellent watches and so do PP and AP.

Rolex is best known for making durable sports watches. The Sub is an iconic watch and the WG version is a fabulous watch.

Historically Patek has made highly complicated watches and simple dress watches. If you look at their perpetual calendar chronograph or their Grandmaster Chime, very few watch manufacturers can claim they are able to manufacture a watch at that level.

However Patek realized that their clients change with time and people's interest in watches change as well. They wanted to expand their client base and began producing sports watches with the Nautilus and Aquanaut. This provided an entry way for people who would have never considered a Patek before. Thierry Stern, president of Patek Philippe, states that a generation ago, people considered a simple Calatrava as their first Patek, but today it is a Nautilus or an Aquanaut. Many people will be happy with staying with the Nautilus/Aquanaut, but others will begin to appreciate the more complicated pieces and expand their Patek collection by adding an annual calendar, perpetual calendar or even a minute repeater.

I know this is a brief summary, but I hope it was helpful in introducing you to the brand. Patek is not for everyone, but Patek collectors are as passionate about their watches as Rolex collectors are and for a very good reason.

[greatmattsby]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

Rolex makes excellent watches and so do PP and AP.

Rolex is best known for making durable sports watches. The Sub is an iconic watch and the WG version is a fabulous watch.

Historically Patek has made highly complicated watches and simple dress watches. If you look at their perpetual calendar chronograph or their Grandmaster Chime, very few watch manufacturers can claim they are able to manufacture a watch at that level.

However Patek realized that their clients change with time and people's interest in watches change as well. They wanted to expand their client base and began producing sports watches with the Nautilus and Aquanaut. This provided an entry way for people who would have never considered a Patek before. Thierry Stern, president of Patek Philippe, states that a generation ago, people considered a simple Calatrava as their first Patek, but today it is a Nautilus or an Aquanaut. Many people will be happy with staying with the Nautilus/Aquanaut, but others will begin to appreciate the more complicated pieces and expand their Patek collection by adding an annual calendar, perpetual calendar or even a minute repeater.

I know this is a brief summary, but I hope it was helpful in introducing you to the brand. Patek is not for everyone, but Patek collectors are as passionate about their watches as Rolex collectors are and for a very good reason.

I went the traditional route and got the calatrava first. The nautilus was second as a daily driver PP. I remember distinctly the feeling when I first put the calatrava on my wrist..."this is a whole new level".

[NoVaSubowner]

A WG sub is a great watch, and one I have thought about in the past. Nothing beats a Rolex for simple durability.

But if you ever get a chance, hold a SS Sub or any other Rolex and a SS Patek (if you can find one) Or a RO 15400 and honestly tell me you can't feel the difference. The level of finishing and overall feel are on another level.

Even my Rolex AD was admiring my Aquanaut the last time I was in his shop.

[nyc2la]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

Rolex makes excellent watches and so do PP and AP.

Rolex is best known for making durable sports watches. The Sub is an iconic watch and the WG version is a fabulous watch.

Historically Patek has made highly complicated watches and simple dress watches. If you look at their perpetual calendar chronograph or their Grandmaster Chime, very few watch manufacturers can claim they are able to manufacture a watch at that level.

However Patek realized that their clients change with time and people's interest in watches change as well. They wanted to expand their client base and began producing sports watches with the Nautilus and Aquanaut. This provided an entry way for people who would have never considered a Patek before. Thierry Stern, president of Patek Philippe, states that a generation ago, people considered a simple Calatrava as their first Patek, but today it is a Nautilus or an Aquanaut. Many people will be happy with staying with the Nautilus/Aquanaut, but others will begin to appreciate the more complicated pieces and expand their Patek collection by adding an annual calendar, perpetual calendar or even a minute repeater.

I know this is a brief summary, but I hope it was helpful in introducing you to the brand. Patek is not for everyone, but Patek collectors are as passionate about their watches as Rolex collectors are and for a very good reason.

Well said, and this is the path I took as I entered the world of Patek. The 5712/1a was my first and then I slid down the slippery slope to more complicated pieces.

I think a collection of Patek and Rolex is a perfect collection. They work very well together.

[Tonyfsu21]

Thanks for the info. I'm going to go try both brands on and compare to my Rolex. I just can't imagine anything more perfect than a Submariner.

[brmeyers]

Hey Tony,
Man you live close to a Watch Mecca!!
Like Tom said go to Bal Harbour and visit AP Boutique, Some patek dealers, Rolex, and others.
For hard to find pieces (like Patek), if you look on Chrono 24 and other places, you will also find many resellers in your area.
Personally most of my watches have been Rolex, because I love sports watches, but I love the Nautilus and Aquanaut lines in all their iterations.
So I currently have the 5711 for a second time, and looking to aquire an aquanaut for a second time as well.
AP I love the ROO series, but I have 6-1/3 inch wrists so my favorite APs just don't work for me.
So I personally gravitate lately to Rolex and Patek, but always looking and trying APs to perhaps find one I love that fits.

And I agree the Submariner is just perfect... It was my first luxury watch and I have now had 6 different versions of it (3xSS, WG, TT and currently YG).
I would recommend that first myself if you like sports watches.
Black SS sub and WG Sub are both so versatile. Hulk dial is one of my favorites but not quite as versatile color-wise.

[Hollister]

Originally Posted by Tonyfsu21

What's the big deal w/ Patek & AP? Why are they so coveted? I guess I just don't get it. I would take my 116619LB any day of the week over anything either of those two brands puts out. Am I missing something? Neither is as functional as my submariner.... With that being said, someone please sell me on either brand because I'm open to expanding my collection but I just need to feel good about it. Nothing says "satisfaction" like a PM Rolex Sub IMHO.

What's the big deal with a gold Rolex? Functionally, it's no better, and is if anything slightly worse than my steel Rolex. I guess I just don't get it. I would take my 16610 any day of the week over any PM Sub. Nothing says "satisfaction" like a steel Rolex Sub IMHO.

PP and AP are in a different league from Rolex, and even a gold-cased Rolex is still only a Rolex.

[Tonyfsu21]

Originally Posted by Hollister

What's the big deal with a gold Rolex? Functionally, it's no better, and is if anything slightly worse than my steel Rolex. I guess I just don't get it. I would take my 16610 any day of the week over any PM Sub. Nothing says "satisfaction" like a steel Rolex Sub IMHO.

PP and AP are in a different league from Rolex, and even a gold-cased Rolex is still only a Rolex.

I understand your point. I have had the Hulk, the Sub C and several other SS Rolex references. I have also had the pleasure of owning the Sub in YG and WG. The weight of PM makes an already superb and functional watch very special IMHO. There's plenty of things you can argue all day long but one of them you cannot argue is the "Iconic" Submariner's functionality regardless of the metal.

[kneedeep]

All 3 brands have a rich, deep and interesting history despite their age differences. All are capable of making timepieces that record the passage of time with 99.995% or better accuracy. Pretty much all the rest is subjective and driven by lifestyle and budgets.

[Tonyfsu21]

Originally Posted by kneedeep

All 3 brands have a rich, deep and interesting history despite their age differences. All are capable of making timepieces that record the passage of time with 99.995% or better accuracy. Pretty much all the rest is subjective and driven by lifestyle and budgets.

Good point. Where does Richard Mille fit into this? Is the general consensus that this brand is a fad? I like the aesthetics of the majority of the RM references but the price point is a whole new level. Not sure I'm that committed.

[Hollister]

Originally Posted by Tonyfsu21

I understand your point. I have had the Hulk, the Sub C and several other SS Rolex references. I have also had the pleasure of owning the Sub in YG and WG. The weight of PM makes an already superb and functional watch very special IMHO. There's plenty of things you can argue all day long but one of them you cannot argue is the "Iconic" Submariner's functionality regardless of the metal.

I have three steel Subs - a 16610, a 5513 and a 1680. I don't personally see the value in a gold Rolex because the gold seems redundant, almost inappropriate on a mid-tier watch like a Rolex.

Instead of getting (say) two or three gold Rolexes, I have a couple of Pateks and an FP Journe in platinum. Each of these was less expensive than the RRP of a new gold Rolex (the FPJ was preowned).

There's no point in arguing about who has the "correct" watch-buying philosophy, because there isn't one. You like gold Rolexes, I don't. I like haute horology, you don't.

[Busyboy]

I consider myself fortunate enough and lucky enough to of had a few of each. But they all appeal for different reasons at different times.

I think the market is tiered cleverly to always allow further aspirations...

If you're hungry you can have chips, Or you can have mash, or waffles or sauté or even gratin... Its just potato... Its the same sustenance... But depending on the garnish, the chefs name, the effort he puts in, and the kudos of the establishment you're dining in- the price varies hugely..

[Defiancekofb]

Originally Posted by Tonyfsu21

Thanks for the info. I'm going to go try both brands on and compare to my Rolex. I just can't imagine anything more perfect than a Submariner.

I once thought as you did, then I started to go to local watch meets and got the chance to be hands on with PP & AP watches up close. AP is definitely on a similar level to Rolex if you want the Cache, it has a distinctive look and a RO on the bracelet has an incredible bling factor. Once you see the bracelet and octagonal bezel, you know it's an AP. Just like when you see a Submariner and oyster bracelet, you know it's a Rolex. Patek is very under the radar with the majority of it's pieces, you either know what it is or you don't. But with Patek the mechanically accuracy is bar none to AP and Rolex. My AP runs within COSC spec, but my Patek is almost as accurate as a Grand Seiko Spring Drive, and keep in mind the Patek is 100% mechanical movement while the Spring Drive is a hybrid mechanical/battery movement.

[kneedeep]

Originally Posted by Tonyfsu21

Good point. Where does Richard Mille fit into this? Is the general consensus that this brand is a fad? I like the aesthetics of the majority of the RM references but the price point is a whole new level. Not sure I'm that committed.

I can't speak to RM but many on here can. The look is definitely unique and appealing to many.

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by Defiancekofb

But with Patek the mechanically accuracy is bar none to AP and Rolex. My AP runs within COSC spec, but my Patek is almost as accurate as a Grand Seiko Spring Drive, and keep in mind the Patek is 100% mechanical movement while the Spring Drive is a hybrid mechanical/battery movement.

Battery? Really?
Freudian slip perhaps?

As for mechanical accuracy – many movements of all types can be regulated to achieve excellent timekeeping.

[Defiancekofb]

Originally Posted by PJ S

Battery? Really?
Freudian slip perhaps?

As for mechanical accuracy – many movements of all types can be regulated to achieve excellent timekeeping.

All movements can achieve +2/-2 seconds a day benchmark for a fully mechanical movement?

My 15400 varies about +7/-7 seconds a day sometimes even worse and my BLNR about +6/-6 seconds a day solid. My 5167 is tops +3/-3 a day. Don't get me wrong, AP is a lot of flash, but accuracy is not one of their strong points, neither is lume strength.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Defiancekofb

All movements can achieve +2/-2 seconds a day benchmark for a fully mechanical movement?

My 15400 varies about +7/-7 seconds a day sometimes even worse and my BLNR about +6/-6 seconds a day solid. My 5167 is tops +3/-3 a day. Don't get me wrong, AP is a lot of flash, but accuracy is not one of their strong points, neither is lume strength.

My Rolexes and AP's run within 2 seconds a day...Can't say I've ever had any run 6 or 7 seconds off other than my vintage pieces.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

Rolex makes excellent watches and so do PP and AP.

Rolex is best known for making durable sports watches. The Sub is an iconic watch and the WG version is a fabulous watch.

Historically Patek has made highly complicated watches and simple dress watches. If you look at their perpetual calendar chronograph or their Grandmaster Chime, very few watch manufacturers can claim they are able to manufacture a watch at that level.

However Patek realized that their clients change with time and people's interest in watches change as well. They wanted to expand their client base and began producing sports watches with the Nautilus and Aquanaut. This provided an entry way for people who would have never considered a Patek before. Thierry Stern, president of Patek Philippe, states that a generation ago, people considered a simple Calatrava as their first Patek, but today it is a Nautilus or an Aquanaut. Many people will be happy with staying with the Nautilus/Aquanaut, but others will begin to appreciate the more complicated pieces and expand their Patek collection by adding an annual calendar, perpetual calendar or even a minute repeater.

I know this is a brief summary, but I hope it was helpful in introducing you to the brand. Patek is not for everyone, but Patek collectors are as passionate about their watches as Rolex collectors are and for a very good reason.

Well put. The grand complications, for me the Perpetual Calendar Chronos in particular, are where Patek really comes into its own but they are at quite significant price points and need time for most people to get comfortable spending that kind of money on just a single watch, just as for most of us a SS Rolex was the gateway towards an eventual PM one, as most don't buy a PM out of the gate even if a few years later they own 3 or 4 of them as I did.

So the sports models serve this function as well as being an end goal in itself if you like the Genta designs, which are more polarising than traditional round Rolex ones, and for those that don't like the designs this is a financial Godsend.

[Defiancekofb]

Originally Posted by HL65

My Rolexes and AP's run within 2 seconds a day...Can't say I've ever had any run 6 or 7 seconds off other than my vintage pieces.

Hmm maybe time for warranty work claim. It has been worst at times like almost 12 seconds with the 15400.


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[ezinhk]

Originally Posted by Tonyfsu21

What's the big deal w/ Patek & AP? Why are they so coveted? I guess I just don't get it. I would take my 116619LB any day of the week over anything either of those two brands puts out. Am I missing something? Neither is as functional as my submariner.... With that being said, someone please sell me on either brand because I'm open to expanding my collection but I just need to feel good about it. Nothing says "satisfaction" like a PM Rolex Sub IMHO.

If you had to ask this question, then you might already have the answer...no big deal really

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by Defiancekofb

All movements can achieve +2/-2 seconds a day benchmark for a fully mechanical movement?

My 15400 varies about +7/-7 seconds a day sometimes even worse and my BLNR about +6/-6 seconds a day solid. My 5167 is tops +3/-3 a day. Don't get me wrong, AP is a lot of flash, but accuracy is not one of their strong points, neither is lume strength.

My point was that it’s regulation which can make a difference more than movement cost – many non-COSC run-of-the-mill ETA movements can be regulated to run well within -4/+6.

It is well known (or should be, as I’ve mentioned it a few times previously) that Audemars Piguet’s 3120 (as fitted to the RO and ROOs) is set at production to be within -1/+10, but if the buyer wants it more finely tuned, then they can ask the APSC to regulate it FOC.
That approach must allow them to crank out the 35-40K pieces they produce each year.

[1William]

I have never owned a PP or AP but I admire the looks of several and the history of both brands. I agree with you about Rolex and am a huge fan and currently own five. For me, Rolex blends design, fit, finish and cost as well as anyone in the watch market. Add in reasonable service times and how most of the more desirable watches hold value and it is just where I want to be.

[cmcm3]

Crystal ball to two years from now...

Originally Posted by Tonyfsu21

Incoming! Just picked up my 5711 and love it!!!

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by Hollister

What's the big deal with a gold Rolex? Functionally, it's no better, and is if anything slightly worse than my steel Rolex. I guess I just don't get it. I would take my 16610 any day of the week over any PM Sub. Nothing says "satisfaction" like a steel Rolex Sub IMHO.

PP and AP are in a different league from Rolex, and even a gold-cased Rolex is still only a Rolex.

Theoretically at least, gold is the more corrosion resistant metal...

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by 1William

I have never owned a PP or AP but I admire the looks of several and the history of both brands. I agree with you about Rolex and am a huge fan and currently own five. For me, Rolex blends design, fit, finish and cost as well as anyone in the watch market. Add in reasonable service times and how most of the more desirable watches hold value and it is just where I want to be.

^^This makes sense.

Rolex dominates the sports watch market, and IMO rightfully so, for many of the above reasons. Especially in stainless steel, it's an iconic rugged and dependable timepiece that practically defines the market.

Traditionally PP has been a more refined dress watch, known for both simple elegance and superbly implemented complications. As such it has also defined that market. Patek sports watches and Rolex precious metal watches are to me equally contradiction and antipole.

Ideally a balanced collection would include both. A stainless Rolex and a gold (or platinum!) Patek. Apples to oranges comparison at best.

[JP Chestnut]

Originally Posted by NoVaSubowner

A WG sub is a great watch, and one I have thought about in the past. Nothing beats a Rolex for simple durability.

But if you ever get a chance, hold a SS Sub or any other Rolex and a SS Patek (if you can find one) Or a RO 15400 and honestly tell me you can't feel the difference. The level of finishing and overall feel are on another level.

Even my Rolex AD was admiring my Aquanaut the last time I was in his shop.

This is so true. I've had tons of Rolex, iwc, omega, etc level watches and never really considered AP or PP due to the cost of ownership (not just the high prices, but the frequency/cost of service is high). A couple years ago one of my buddies bought an AP ROC - I was blown away. The finishing is clearly and obviously MUCH better than a Rolex. It can't be seen in pictures.

OP - buy what you like. Don't get "sold" something by people on the forums. That's an expensive mistake.