5513 white lettering original dial?

[WatchWalker]

This morning I had a very interesting discussion with regards to my 5513. I have strong reason to believe that this watch was never restored, except for me having replaced the plexiglass and some essential service.

I was meeting someone from a famous auction house and she was really surprised to see the dial of this 5513. At first she thought it was restored because of overall condition and the fact that the lume is still very functional. It takes several seconds to fade when charged.

I bought this watch however in really untouched condition and it was so scratched that it wouldn't have made any sense to relume the dial. And besides that, this watch was not sourced from a collector but a private person who was totally not into watches. We both used loupes but could not find a certain outcome. If any of you have the Mondani Submariner book, look at page 65 and you'll see exactly same 5513 with white lettering. My watch also has the original 7206 bracelet with 80 end links.

Can anyone shine a light on the authenticity of this watch, in particular the dial? Attached is an image I took today. I can't upload larger images here, sorry.

[cajuntiger]

It is very common to find pristine dials under a scratched up crystal. Rolex was the master of sealing up watches...especially the 5513. Most found have perfect dials under beat up crystals.

All of my 5513's look the same, one owner watches with original dials that look new.

Just keep in mind "restoring" a watch doesn't necessarily mean replacing the dial. Re-polishing the case, replacing hands, crowns and bezel inserts are the most common service items done by Rolex during standard service. Your insert may have been replaced and likely the crown too. The hands look great though.

Yours is a beauty...enjoy.

What is the year? The serial number will help (first few digits). Its not uncommon for a 67 to glow briefly after being charged by a bright source.

[WatchWalker]

Originally Posted by cajuntiger

It is very common to find pristine dials under a scratched up crystal. Rolex was the master of sealing up watches...especially the 5513. Most found have perfect dials under beat up crystals.

All of my 5513's look the same, one owner watches with original dials that look new.

Just keep in mind "restoring" a watch doesn't necessarily mean replacing the dial. Re-polishing the case, replacing hands and crowns are the most common service items done by Rolex during standard service.

Yours looks like a beauty...enjoy.

What is the year? The serial number will help (first few digits). Its not uncommon for a 67 to glow briefly after being charged by a bright source.

Thank you for your response. It's a 1967, serial 1738xxx. A video file is too large to upload but I made this lume pic. Super bright and green which lasts for about 30 seconds.

[Rebel]

Stunning watch.

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by WatchWalker

Thank you for your response. It's a 1967, serial 1738xxx. A video file is too large to upload but I made this lume pic. Super bright and green which lasts for about 30 seconds.

That is correct for a 1967 5513

I bought this 1967 5513 from the original owner's son. His dad was a mechanic and wore the watch every day. It looked like he used it as a tool to repair engines. I could barely see the dial when I found it. This is why Rolex subs are so desirable...after a spa treatment by Bob Ridley it looked like this:

[WatchWalker]

Mine was also in a very "mature" condition...

So I was really positively surprised when I saw the dial in full glory...

[1675-David]

that's a great mf 5513 with the correct insert, well done, mine also glows when charged... I have a later insert and new pip bye the way!

[WatchWalker]

Great watch too! May I ask how you can recognise my watch has the right insert? The pip for sure looks pretty old as well.

[1675-David]

as the name suggests the 5 in the 50 is long, the rounded lower section is longer in this version than in other versions, the "long 5" version is correct for mid 60's gilt subs as well as early matte dials and very early 1680 red Subs.. a google image search for long 5 insert with turn up lots of examples similar to yours... just wish I had one on my own!!

[cajuntiger]

You would be surprised what you can find under a messed up crystal...I found a perfect 5512 under this:

[Rolexator]

Awesome Meters First! Congratulations!

The so called "expert" from that famous auction house should have known better though...

[seattleal]

Found this one on another watch forum. Fortunately, the old crystal was clear enough to see it was more than just a MF 5513, it was a gilt 5513 priced as a beat-up MF. After a trip to LAWW, it now looks like the 2nd pic.

[spoilsofwar01]

so pleased that I found my 5513, 1968 when I did, its seen life an has a few marks to show the passage of time, and its for keeps.

[WatchWalker]

Today I received another reaction from same auction house. They are still suggesting the dial was restored. Here's what they wrote "The indexes’ shape (round, triangle and rectangles) is not defined the way Rolex was doing it at the time. The luminous material is also not reacting the way it should for a watch of this age. The insert of the bezel is a later addition (service bezel)."
As I mentioned above, I bought the watch in extremely worn condition so I see no reason why previous owner would ever have the dial restored? And how can anyone identify the bezel as a service version since some of you mentioned the bezel looks period correct?
Regarding the lume, apparently this is not so weird for a 1967 watch. Am I fooling myself here since I dare not to compete with the expertise of a (very well known) auction house.
Any "experts" here who can tell more? For the record, I don't seek to sell this watch, just more and more curious about the authenticity of it.

[swish77]

Which auction house are we talking about? I work with all of the major auction houses in the art world, and I can tell you they sometimes don't know what they're doing and are often ignorant.

As for your Sub ... here's an old thread on the relevant topic:

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=386318

[WatchWalker]

Originally Posted by swish77

Which auction house are we talking about? I work with all of the major auction houses in the art world, and I can tell you they sometimes don't know what they're doing and are often ignorant.

As for your Sub ... here's an old thread on the relevant topic:

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=386318

Thanks for the reaction! I clearly prefer not to mention the name of this auction house since my purpose is not to bash any auction house but rather find out more about my watch. It is one of the top 3 worldwide known auction houses for watches though, hence I take their opinion pretty serious.

The thread you shared is to the point and I already read it earlier. It could explain the strong lume. But I still don't understand what would make my dial a restored one, based upon the shape of the indexes? Or how to identify a service bezel insert?

[1675-David]

You'll find a fairly comprehensive article about the meters first dial here written by our esteemed member BEAUMONT MILLER II

http://www.5513mattedial.com/MetersFirst.html

[swish77]

Originally Posted by WatchWalker

Thanks for the reaction! I clearly prefer not to mention the name of this auction house since my purpose is not to bash any auction house but rather find out more about my watch. It is one of the top 3 worldwide known auction houses for watches though, hence I take their opinion pretty serious.

The thread you shared is to the point and I already read it earlier. It could explain the strong lume. But I still don't understand what would make my dial a restored one, based upon the shape of the indexes? Or how to identify a service bezel insert?

I stand by my previous statement about the auction house(s). Don't rely on them for any accurate information, and don't assume your dial has been restored, unless there are other telltale signs. To my eyes and in the photo anyway, the shape of the hour markers looks fine, and the tritium glow seems to be consistent with other Subs from that time period. If you have doubts, perhaps post some macro shots of the tritium, or take it to a local vintage expert to loupe it.

As for the insert, there are many threads and photos comparing the styles through the years. I'd dig into that, and I certainly wouldn't rely on an auction house as my sole source of information.

[05carbondrz]

Originally Posted by swish77

I stand by my previous statement about the auction house(s). Don't rely on them for any accurate information, and don't assume your dial has been restored, unless there are other telltale signs. To my eyes and in the photo anyway, the shape of the hour markers looks fine, and the tritium glow seems to be consistent with other Subs from that time period. If you have doubts, perhaps post some macro shots of the tritium, or take it to a local vintage expert to loupe it.

As for the insert, there are many threads and photos comparing the styles through the years. I'd dig into that, and I certainly wouldn't rely on an auction house as my sole source of information.

I agree with this,Auction Houses like to act like Experts but rarely are.