White GMT Pan Am

[powerfunk]

People were discussing the new "Steel Rolex" book, so I was poking around their site and found this. The center line touches the "N" in "PAN" here too. Perhaps just a logistical engraving decision? In any case, nice photos.

[Mr. Doug]

given the sophistication of CNC milling machines in the early 80s, the logo could have easily been slightly "off". I don't imagine that Rolex did them in-house. My Uncle was the CFO of Pan-Am about that time. I'll aks him if he remembers anything about it. He's got a lot of cool photos from back then...perhaps one of them has someone wearing their watch?

[77T]

Originally Posted by Mr. Doug

given the sophistication of CNC milling machines in the early 80s, the logo could have easily been slightly "off". I don't imagine that Rolex did them in-house. My Uncle was the CFO of Pan-Am about that time. I'll aks him if he remembers anything about it. He's got a lot of cool photos from back then...perhaps one of them has someone wearing their watch?

1980's? - these were made in the '50s

[T. Ferguson]

Interesting that the highly collectible version is that of the ground crew and not the flight crew version. Were there just fewer of them made or is it more desirable due to the uniqueness of the white dial?

[Mr. Doug]

Originally Posted by 77T

1980's? - these were made in the '50s

As soon as I saw that, I went back to fix it and then got a phone call. Finger slip on the keypad.

I think by "ground crew" they meant "office staff". The pilots for Pan-Am wore white hats, while other airlines wore black. IIRC, it was explained to me that the white dial was for "desk pilots".

I believe Jack was there from 65 to 82, so I'll find out what he knows. He'd getting "up there" so he may not be of much help.

[mdw3]

Just imagine what these might be worth if any of them were real!

[Kingair]

Originally Posted by mdw3

Just imagine what these might be worth if any of them were real!

Let me guess . . . between $ 200K to $ 500 K . . . ?

HAGOne

[Robi74]

Naaa, we would have seen one by now if there where real! They are all fake until we see one and when rolex gives us proof that they where made but until then they are all home made fakes!

Example, take a look at this guy. The hole watch is gen, even the blackdial was gen before he hade it refinished (painted, by a compnay in Usa) White, now the dude says he has a gen panam hahah. Im telling you all, there are some crazy people out there!!!

[Pete17]

Originally Posted by amvd

I have been flying over the forum and I wonder why I have never seen pics or commentsof the white gmt Pepsi bezel that I saw on the web. Does anyone one one?
Do you have real pics? Not the web ones

There's a good reason you don't see any.....
Lots of heated debate on these and some very debatable dials in existence.
IMHO the jury is still out on these.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pete17]

Originally Posted by conrail

Interesting, I don't think I've seen that book before. Have those authors ever explained where they got the picture for their book?

A great book but a bit outdated these days due to the wealth of progress in vintage model research over the past 10 yrs.
The pics are computer generated. Not pics of real watches.
A good guide but not 100% accurate.


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[marcello pisani]

altough 100 % correct is not matched to a Pan-AM case/back ( I know the full story of this dial and the present Italian owner is a friend of mine )
about these Pan-Am GMTs : I have seen one on an early 1675 PCG with a special "silver " dial ( glossy not satinated , same kind you have in a very few 6610/1016 ) : I have a picture in my records and will share as soon as I found it !
in any case they are extremely risky watches : personally I would not touch one of them without a confirmation from Geneva about the case ...

[Pete17]

Good advice Marcello!
I totally agree. A very risky proposition.

Sent from my Droid.

[marcello pisani]

to engrave a back .... maybe on a case sold to Singapour ( for example ) ...
as untill now nobody knows ( besides Rolex ) :
1) if the case number ( or the last 3 digits ) must be engraved in the back-inside :
2) which are the standard pattern , style of the engravings
3) which kind of tools have ben uised for back-egravings ( drilling machine , pantograph ... ) and who has done those damned engravings ( Rolex or Pan-Am ? )
4) which models have been used : 1675, 6542 or both ??? and which are the correct ranges of case numbers ????????
in mho untill now it's a complete " casino " ...

[marcello pisani]

are you sure that "PAN-AM" must be engraved only in the outside of the back ???????????????
LLOOLLL

[joe100]

As I've said before, I'm skeptical at best. I have to see confirmation from Rolex and that isn't likely. They let a rather famous watch auction house sell a fake knowingly. Even included a very ambiguous letter neither confirming not denying authenticity. Seriously though, the provenance should have been investigated further. it turned out to be a guy in Japan made it as an art piece. Heck, we can't even get confirmation the all-red GMT hand on the 1675 was an original Rolex part which left the factory like that. They will service an all-red since the part is original but won't comment on whether it was repainted.

[powerfunk]

Interesting. Sounds like White GMT's are the new Mayer Dials.

[marcello pisani]

we have no pattern of how these watches should be ...
this the same shit ( please forgive this rough term ) happened a few years ago with some 5513 with Marine Nationale engravings in the back-outside .. with cases sold to Spain , Switzerland or Sweden
by the way I have seen and checked with my eyes one of them and the engravings ( drilled ) looked brand new.
this doesn't obviously mean that all 5513 with MARINE Nationale engravings are fake .. but just that the provenance ( confirmation ) is really necessary ..

[Kingair]

Thanks for the info Marcello

We'll when money is involved . . . people do all kind of things . . . sadly

HAGOne

[T. Ferguson]

Interesting, so the white dial PanAm GMT may be just a mythical "white whale"? Or is it a case where it's fairly well believed they were made at one time, but there were so few made that none are around (in circulation) anymore, so the ONLY ones we see appear to be fakes - and now we are not sure they ever existed to begin with?

[datejust24]

if those are fakes...they are damn good.

[marcello pisani]

1) if the " white " dial is original or not
2) if the case has been sold to Pan-Am or not.
so at the moment I know that at least one " white " dial for 6542 has been produced by Rolex ( the one posted by Stefano Mazzariol in his blog ,
that however doesn't come from the States and has a matt finish ).
in the past Rolex dials were usually produced in batches no lower than 10 pieces, but sometimes ( as for the "white " 6205 ) even in 1 or 2 pieces only.
the other question is the case : maybe Pan-Am got some GMT or maybe not :
untill we can't find a case " confirmed " we have just a sort of "self-delivered"
watch .. something like the back-engraving : < Marcello is very skinny > ( while
my weight is around 260 lbs. ) .. with the very same collecting value.