Experts Help on this red sub.

[SubKing]

it would be nice to know about the box, if anyone can confirm? based on what everyone is saying, 8 to 9k is the going rate? I never see them in this condition going for those prices.. So from what I see, it seems red subs have jumped a lot in price..

I cannot even find a nice one, let alone a good price 8 to 9k.. VRF is very slim pickings these days. I cannot tell you how many times I have placed a WTB for red subs or other parts and no one responds..

To me, in the last year, the vintage market has severely dried up. Which would explain the prices.. I mean Andrew shear asking almost 17k for a ft first red sub with updated bracelet seems pretty high to me for what it is, regardless of papers or box.

[007Sub]

I'm sorry to sat that im not convinced the dial wasn't re-lumed. Those plots look too evenly yellow to me... usually on patina this yellow there are some very minuscule black/grey dots (see photo of the gent's right below yours)... I think the dial is real... just possibly re-lumed/painted. I may be wrong though...

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by 007Sub

I'm sorry to sat that im not convinced the dial wasn't re-lumed. Those plots look too evenly yellow to me... usually on patina this yellow there are some very minuscule black/grey dots (see photo of the gent's right below yours)... I think the dial is real... just possibly re-lumed/painted. I may be wrong though...

can anyone confirm this dial once and for all? I'm about to pull the trigger on this watch and just want to make sure everything is original on it before I make a move.
any solid advise would be great.

[007Sub]

Originally Posted by SubKing

can anyone confirm this dial once and for all? I'm about to pull the trigger on this watch and just want to make sure everything is original on it before I make a move.
any solid advise would be great.

Here is what I might do... if you are near a RSC, and the seller offers a return policy.. buy the watch and then bring it to RSC and ask them if they can confirm the authenticity and give you an insurance evaluation... (it will cost you $150, but its worth it for the piece of mind.). If the buyer doesn't offer a return policy then wait it out and fine another that doesn't raise ANY questions. 13k is too much money to have ANY doubt IMO. Just my 2 cents...

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by 007Sub

Here is what I might do... if you are near a RSC, and the seller offers a return policy.. buy the watch and then bring it to RSC and ask them if they can confirm the authenticity and give you an insurance evaluation... (it will cost you $150, but its worth it for the piece of mind.). If the buyer doesn't offer a return policy then wait it out and fine another that doesn't raise ANY questions. 13k is too much money to have ANY doubt IMO. Just my 2 cents...

not near any RSC. the seller offers the standard 48 hour return policy, so I am kind of depending on everyone here to tell me for certain. JED where are ya??

[cruvon]

I would go with Marcellos feel that it's not a relume though do take advice from others too. I think its the lighting, if you see the lume in sunlight and zoom on to it, you will see a porous like tritium surface on the markers. I doubt a relume job can ever look so good.

[Vincent65]

I'm fairly certain that dial is in original condition - no re-paint/lume job on that one, IMHO

[Beaumont Miller II]

Has anyone asked whether the tritium hour plots glow?

[SubKing]

I don't know if they glow. I would only assume they don't if the dial is original.

Can anyone speak on behalf of the box set? Is it era correct? I have seen so many different ones.

[marcello pisani]

" Vintage Rolex stuff is not for all " ... LLOOLLL
in any case if you want " a more solid advice " about the reluming ( as I think you now agree that the dial is 100 % original ) please show us bigger pics of the dial ....

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

" Vintage Rolex stuff is not for all " ... LLOOLLL
in any case if you want " a more solid advice " about the reluming ( as I think you now agree that the dial is 100 % original ) please show us bigger pics of the dial ....

those are the only pictures I have. The watch is not mine yet.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

I saw the short stroke "E" also. Agree about the "B" as well. I have seen original examples that looked worse. I try to remember that it was the 70's, and quality control was not always great. Remember the 70's...bell bottom jeans, long hair, and the Ford Pinto. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with bell bottom jeans and long hair. The Pinto, however... . Otherwise it looks ok to me.

John, I do remember the Vega! What is a Pinto!

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by springer

John, I do remember the Vega! What is a Pinto!

[Michael M.]

Box is correct Watch looks a-okay....probably a 9500-10000 watch.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Box is correct Watch looks a-okay....probably a 9500-10000 watch.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Box is correct Watch looks a-okay....probably a 9500-10000 watch.

would you consider 9500 to 10k a fair deal for a watch in this condition?

[Michael M.]

Originally Posted by SubKing

would you consider 9500 to 10k a fair deal for a watch in this condition?

Yes

[CaveDiver]

Like marcello stated.. To be sure ask for a high res picture of the dial in better light. Seller should not have a issue with that request... A high res picture will also clear up if the lume has flaked off some the plots... Either way, watch looks nice... The A.S. watch seems pricey to me,,but can't blame him,,never know who may have a pocket full of extra cash..

[springer]

Having speckles on the markers means nothing more than "there are black speckles on the markers." It has nothing to do with a dial being relumed. It is just a contaminant, dirt or debris. If the dial glows, it has been relumed. Because the markers are yellow does not mean it is relumed but instead indicates the dial plots have turned to a yellow patina.

Ask the seller if it glows. If you can't get a straight answer, then look elsewhere. Below are a couple of dials from my 1680's. Notice they are not speckled, do not glow and have not been relumed.

jP

[CaveDiver]

Originally Posted by springer

Having speckles on the markers means nothing more than "there are black speckles on the markers." It has nothing to do with a dial being relumed. It is just a contaminant, dirt or debris. If the dial glows, it has been relumed. Because the markers are yellow does not mean it is relumed but instead indicates the dial plots have turned to a yellow patina.

Ask the seller if it glows. If you can't get a straight answer, then look elsewhere. Below are a couple of dials from my 1680's. Notice they are not speckled, do not glow and have not been relumed.

jP

John, the second one you posted asking what is noticed about it a while back. What were you checking to see what would be noticed other than the insert from a earlier period?
Thanks

[springer]

Originally Posted by CaveDiver

John, the second one you posted asking what is noticed about it a while back. What were you checking to see what would be noticed other than the insert from a earlier period?
Thanks

They have both been sold. When I posted the thread you are referring too, I wanted to see how many OPF's would come out of their shell and respond. Regarding the inserts, both inserts are original and correct.

We know who they are now!

[Robbyvm]

John,

what is an OPF ?

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by springer

Having speckles on the markers means nothing more than "there are black speckles on the markers." It has nothing to do with a dial being relumed. It is just a contaminant, dirt or debris.

jP

that's right !

[Vincent65]

On the subject of glowing, I don't think it's definitive at all that if it glows it's been re-lumed or replaced. All my old tritium dials still glow a little (1966, 1970 and 1990), the oldest more than the newest, actually. All original and untouched - not relumed.

[marcello pisani]

if you put exausted indexes under a source of energy ( a lamp or something like this ) the dead beaten tritium is " excited " so that the index can glow for a short time ( from a few minutes to some hours )

[Mark020]

My 6536/1 stills glows :-)

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by Mark020

My 6536/1 stills glows :-)

the " persisting glow " also depends if there is radium or tritium in the mixture :
just for a quick example .. half life of radium is 1600 years , while in tritium only 12,5 ....

[cruvon]

My understanding on the glow is that it is because of the phosphor content reacting with radium or tritium that causes it to glow. Most vintages have very weak phosphor content after all these years so they no longer glow or even if they do glow, they glow very feebly for a little while. Radium or Tritium is just the fuel that makes phosphor glow, not much help if the phosphor itself is dead or near dead. But maybe there is another technical explanation for that. I have also heard that the feeble glow(seen in some GMT's possibly because of the excess phosphor content) is a different colour to the modern luminova glow.

Anyone has a picture of the tritium glow on vintages?

[007Sub]

Originally Posted by springer

Having speckles on the markers means nothing more than "there are black speckles on the markers." It has nothing to do with a dial being relumed. It is just a contaminant, dirt or debris. If the dial glows, it has been relumed. Because the markers are yellow does not mean it is relumed but instead indicates the dial plots have turned to a yellow patina.

Ask the seller if it glows. If you can't get a straight answer, then look elsewhere. Below are a couple of dials from my 1680's. Notice they are not speckled, do not glow and have not been relumed.

jP

This is largely incorrect. I have an original dial from '68 and the lum plots still glow for a few seconds after bright light exposure. Now in most cases they wont but it is possible for original tritium lum to last longer than others... not sure why. I have a sub from '82 that doesn't glow at all.

That said, the speckles are almost always present on any vintage tritium plot if you look closely enough under a loop. Maybe there are a few examples where there is none, but I would be find a watch that is over 35 years old to be very suspect if the lum color was 100% uniform under a loop. Ask any vintage tech expert that works on them and I'm sure they would tend to agree. Under extreme magnification it should look like sand... somewhat gritty... not smooth.

I think this yellow lum personally looks a little odd to me. But the one thing I can confirm with certainty is that whether or not it glows after light exposure should NOT be a determining factor (unless it glows bright for an extended period of time i.e. more than 30 seconds).... Note that people painting these dials know they shouldn't glow... thus they could just use the "correct" hue of vintage.

[007Sub]

Originally Posted by cruvon

My understanding on the glow is that it is because of the phosphor content reacting with radium or tritium that causes it to glow. Most vintages have very weak phosphor content after all these years so they no longer glow or even if they do glow, they glow very feebly for a little while. Radium or Tritium is just the fuel that makes phosphor glow, not much help if the phosphor itself is dead or near dead. But maybe there is another technical explanation for that. I have also heard that the feeble glow(seen in some GMT's possibly because of the excess phosphor content) is a different colour to the modern luminova glow.

Anyone has a picture of the tritium glow on vintages?

I have a pic of tritium glow on a vintage following a brief intense flash exposure in the dark... granted this is immediately after the light exposure and fades quickly. But is still surprisingly bright for a '68 sub.