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Old 24 January 2021, 06:31 PM   #31
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^^^ this
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Old 24 January 2021, 10:21 PM   #32
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The same design has gone from $900 to $5,500 in 3 years. Good for Ming, but hard for me to see the value or interest anymore.
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Old 24 January 2021, 11:20 PM   #33
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The same design has gone from $900 to $5,500 in 3 years. Good for Ming, but hard for me to see the value or interest anymore.
movement has slightly improved but i agree.
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Old 25 January 2021, 02:34 AM   #34
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I went from loving the 27.02 on initial release of the details, to being disappointed to learn there was no lume. And then I thought how I would wear this watch, and realized there will be maybe 1 in 1,000 times I look at the time and will wish it was lumed. So, I tried to get one on the first round of the sale and got lucky as one of the transactions that went through. I got an email the other day confirming an estimated late November 2021 delivery date, so I’m excited for my first Ming.

This will go into the category of “dressy” watch in my collection...I’ll get a couple of the different straps to make it more casual (definitely something in an orange tone) but overall it isn’t going to take time away from my sports models.
Congrats! I agree with you in that the 27.02, of all Ming watches, is the one to NOT have lume, particularly because it was meant to be an extra-thin "dress" piece. It's an interesting way of framing the watch because I feel that Ming watches, by design, don't have the "traditional" dressy feel—like 1960s, 1970s, gold, 2 or 3 hand classic dress watches by PP, VC, JLC, etc—even the 27.01/02, his dressiest pieces yet.

I think it's the result of him staying true to what Ming is: a modern watch company with its unique design language. They're not trying to be something they're not (by trying to make it like a calatrava-type watch), all the while, thinking of transferring some of the elegance of what an extra-thin watch used to mean.

There are plenty of other Ming models with lume (most, if not all), and all the better for it since they're really cool. But also very cool that you were able to see through to how this watch—created today but thinking to the past—can really shine without lume!

S
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Old 25 January 2021, 03:47 AM   #35
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movement has slightly improved but i agree.

Way more than the movement has been upgraded.


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Old 25 January 2021, 04:59 AM   #36
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Way more than the movement has been upgraded.


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I agree. I've had both a 17.01 and an 18.01. They've come a long way in terms of build quality, finishing and lume.

Has the overall aesthetic remained the same? Yes. But that's why I love Ming. They're staying true to their core design identity, while also constantly innovating in this space with new materials, new engineering methods and also new movements.
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Old 26 January 2021, 10:21 AM   #37
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The same design has gone from $900 to $5,500 in 3 years. Good for Ming, but hard for me to see the value or interest anymore.
Definitely not the same design. Similar design philosophy and identity, yes. But the $5,500 27.02 has a completely reworked "open" movement with Swarz-Etienne, which is a massive upgrade from the Sellita in the $900 17.01.

Beyond the movement, the 27.02 is an extra-thin at 6.9mm with display back, more complex case design and finish, and gradient sapphire dial with guilloché.

$5,500 is definitely a lot more than the $900, and definitely up there with IWC and other established brands. But if other major brands released something of a similar spec ("openworked" display movement, gradient sapphire and guilloché dial, multiple case finishes, less than 7mm thick), it would probably be offered at a higher price even if they manufactured it at scale. Only thing I'm uncertain is the overall finish, but I've heard from Ming owners that it has gotten pretty good.

Overall, the watch did sell out in a matter of minutes, so I think they priced it strategically and to the liking of buyers.

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Old 26 January 2021, 01:52 PM   #38
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Overall, the watch did sell out in a matter of minutes, so I think they priced it strategically and to the liking of buyers.
S
Don’t know if the pricing strategy makes sense. Just because they sold out doesn’t mean much nowadays given it was a limited run of 200-300 pieces. With the amount of Hodinkee hype backing Ming they could sell 300 pieces of almost anything, even a $6,000 travel clock
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Old 26 January 2021, 07:30 PM   #39
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At first glance I liked the 27.02. But I was disappointed when I've read it doesn't have a genuine guilloché, only a stamped guilloché pattern.


I've managed to order a 27.01, can't wait to get it.
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Old 26 January 2021, 07:37 PM   #40
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Definitely not the same design. Similar design philosophy and identity, yes. But the $5,500 27.02 has a completely reworked "open" movement with Swarz-Etienne, which is a massive upgrade from the Sellita in the $900 17.01.

Beyond the movement, the 27.02 is an extra-thin at 6.9mm with display back, more complex case design and finish, and gradient sapphire dial with guilloché.

$5,500 is definitely a lot more than the $900, and definitely up there with IWC and other established brands. But if other major brands released something of a similar spec ("openworked" display movement, gradient sapphire and guilloché dial, multiple case finishes, less than 7mm thick), it would probably be offered at a higher price even if they manufactured it at scale. Only thing I'm uncertain is the overall finish, but I've heard from Ming owners that it has gotten pretty good.

Overall, the watch did sell out in a matter of minutes, so I think they priced it strategically and to the liking of buyers.

S

At the same point, it's "just" a modified ETA movement with a stamped dial that overall looks pretty similar to the $900 OG.

I understand that there are fans of the watch, so, good for them.
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Old 26 January 2021, 08:59 PM   #41
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Don’t know if the pricing strategy makes sense. Just because they sold out doesn’t mean much nowadays given it was a limited run of 200-300 pieces. With the amount of Hodinkee hype backing Ming they could sell 300 pieces of almost anything, even a $6,000 travel clock

I’d agree.
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Old 27 January 2021, 12:35 AM   #42
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Don’t know if the pricing strategy makes sense. Just because they sold out doesn’t mean much nowadays given it was a limited run of 200-300 pieces. With the amount of Hodinkee hype backing Ming they could sell 300 pieces of almost anything, even a $6,000 travel clock
How do you mean? From Ming and the buyer's perspectives, doesn't it "make sense" if they priced the watch to their liking (cost, profit margin, etc.) along with finding enough people who agree with their pricing enough to sell out? Isn't that the ultimate sweet spot? Sure, not everyone will think it's worth $5,500, and surely, there are those who would've gladly paid more, but I think it makes sense because they priced it and people bought it (all of it).

I understand that maybe not all think it's worth the $5.5k, but enough people did, and from an economics point-of-view, seems like a home run to me. Scarcity is a legitimate factor in pricing and economics, and I'm sure they were well aware of that, as are buyers.

What Hodinkee hype are you talking about? Did they do a special feature on Ming watches? From what I've seen, they've did the standard "Introducing" and "Hands on" just like they do for pretty much any other releases. Also, Hodinkee published the "Introducing" article after Ming did their 2nd batch release, which also sold out in minutes. I think people were eager to get their hands on it regardless of Hodinkee. Maybe they got extra coverage from GPHG nominations/win, but just because it appeared on Hodinkee doesn't mean that there is Hodinkee hype...

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Old 27 January 2021, 01:19 AM   #43
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At the same point, it's "just" a modified ETA movement with a stamped dial that overall looks pretty similar to the $900 OG.

I understand that there are fans of the watch, so, good for them.
I do agree. When you look at the components separately, it doesn't seem like much. However, the PP 5070 or VC Cornes de Vache or Omega cal 321 were modified Lemania movements. Also, there were iterations of the AP ROO that had stamped dials, and the newer Patek 6007A has a stamped guilloché dial center.

By these examples, I'm certainly not saying that Ming is in the same caliber as a PP or a VC. However, I do think Ming's strength is delivering an overall vision. They don't try to (and they really can't at this point as a microbrand with limited resources) make an in house movement when they know it'll be mediocre at best. They don't try to make their own dials or go for machined turned dials. But some of the best watch companies in the world do that because perhaps they found it a necessary process, at that point in time, to produce and deliver a vision. In the same way, I can see that Ming, with whatever resources they have, are trying to partner with the best they can (Schwarz-Etienne)—sort of like how Patek had Stern produce their dials—to create an overall package.

As you said, there are fans, and more people than not who would pay $5,500 for a 2-hand microbrand, and I do wonder why that's the case and what they're doing right.

Is it a modified ETA? yes. Is it a outsourced, stamped dial? yes. On paper is it appealing? Not necessarily. And the price jump does seem drastic for a watch that looks similar to its predecessors.

I completely respect your opinion and agree with your facts. But I do want to point out that this is an industry in which the details can make all the difference. And those details (the differences that distinguish "pretty similar" from "exactly the same") may be the deciding factor for the success/failure of a brand/watch. For watch companies, the cost to marginally improving those details can be quite high.

At the end of the day, it seems like the point is about whether people recognize why it jumped from $900 to $5,500 for a seemingly similar watch. People who do understand the reason behind it (and like it) were ok with buying it. Just saying that there's more in the details than what's obvious on paper

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Old 27 January 2021, 01:23 AM   #44
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Yes, what "Hodinkee hype"? All I see is standard coverage when a new release is coming out. Just like EVERY. OTHER. BRAND. Can you actually cite why you are saying this, or are you just making this up?

And it's just a modified ETA movement? Do you have any idea what goes into that modification which results in the end product? The research? The materials/finishing? The assembly? The movement in the 27.02 is much more advanced than the earlier models which certainly lends itself to some level of premium. I can't say if the premium is "justified", as I don't know that much about movement manufacture. But what I probably can say is this is no less atrocious than Patek milking the 324 movement for each and every watch they produce.
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Old 27 January 2021, 01:36 AM   #45
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How do you mean? From Ming and the buyer's perspectives, doesn't it "make sense" if they priced the watch to their liking (cost, profit margin, etc.) along with finding enough people who agree with their pricing enough to sell out? Isn't that the ultimate sweet spot? Sure, not everyone will think it's worth $5,500, and surely, there are those who would've gladly paid more, but I think it makes sense because they priced it and people bought it (all of it).

I understand that maybe not all think it's worth the $5.5k, but enough people did, and from an economics point-of-view, seems like a home run to me. Scarcity is a legitimate factor in pricing and economics, and I'm sure they were well aware of that, as are buyers.

What Hodinkee hype are you talking about? Did they do a special feature on Ming watches? From what I've seen, they've did the standard "Introducing" and "Hands on" just like they do for pretty much any other releases. Also, Hodinkee published the "Introducing" article after Ming did their 2nd batch release, which also sold out in minutes. I think people were eager to get their hands on it regardless of Hodinkee. Maybe they got extra coverage from GPHG nominations/win, but just because it appeared on Hodinkee doesn't mean that there is Hodinkee hype...
I meant I don't think it makes sense from a longer term business perspective. Short term, yes, Ming just made, or maximized, their revenue. And of course buyers are happy. However, successful luxury brands never double or triple their price point, much less 6x, in such a short period. Rolex could double the MSRP of every single watch in their catalogue without much impact on volumes sold and increase total revenue. But instead they rather increase prices by 5-10% per year. There's a reason for that and it's not because they're feeling charitable.

People say the new Ming is a better watch, etc. Sure, I don't know. But no way is it 6x better by any assessment, even qualitative. While Ming enthusiasts aren't too bothered by the price hike, a lot of potential new customers were put off. So, in my opinion, Ming's pricing decision doesn't make sense because they're growing revenues by putting through a massive price increase on a small group of loyal Ming enthusiasts. I would have thought that a more moderate price increase to help grow their customer base so that in 10, 20, 30 years time they could have a following of tens of thousands of customers who they can charge +10% per year would have been smarter.
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Old 27 January 2021, 01:50 AM   #46
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Yes, what "Hodinkee hype"? All I see is standard coverage when a new release is coming out. Just like EVERY. OTHER. BRAND. Can you actually cite why you are saying this, or are you just making this up?
I think it's rather ridiculous to claim I'm making up the Ming hype. Should I start providing a bibliography before commenting now? There was an article in Hodinkee recently on this Ming release that was very positive, mentioning how it was already sold out, along with every other Ming (which sounds pretty hype-y to me). Do you actually think it's a stretch to say there is hype around Ming? Or are you just upset some people don't share your taste in watches...
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Old 27 January 2021, 01:54 AM   #47
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I think it's rather ridiculous to claim I'm making up the Ming hype. Should I start providing a bibliography before commenting now? There was an article in Hodinkee recently on this Ming release that was very positive, mentioning how it was already sold out, along with every other Ming (which sounds pretty hype-y to me). Do you actually think it's a stretch to say there is hype around Ming? Or are you just upset some people don't share your taste in watches...
Oh, I get it. If Hodinkee covers something, and they don't say anything bad, and merely state facts, it's "hype". Got it...
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Old 27 January 2021, 02:05 AM   #48
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Oh, I get it. If Hodinkee covers something, and they don't say anything bad, and merely state facts, it's "hype". Got it...
Hyping something up means to get people excited. So yes, Hodinkee does a very good job at hyping up new watches
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Old 27 January 2021, 02:16 AM   #49
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I meant I don't think it makes sense from a longer term business perspective. Short term, yes, Ming just made, or maximized, their revenue. And of course buyers are happy. However, successful luxury brands never double or triple their price point, much less 6x, in such a short period. Rolex could double the MSRP of every single watch in their catalogue without much impact on volumes sold and increase total revenue. But instead they rather increase prices by 5-10% per year. There's a reason for that and it's not because they're feeling charitable.

People say the new Ming is a better watch, etc. Sure, I don't know. But no way is it 6x better by any assessment, even qualitative. While Ming enthusiasts aren't too bothered by the price hike, a lot of potential new customers were put off. So, in my opinion, Ming's pricing decision doesn't make sense because they're growing revenues by putting through a massive price increase on a small group of loyal Ming enthusiasts. I would have thought that a more moderate price increase to help grow their customer base so that in 10, 20, 30 years time they could have a following of tens of thousands of customers who they can charge +10% per year would have been smarter.
Rolex tripling the MSRP on their CURRENT catalogue would be hugely repercussive. This is not the case with Ming. The 27.02 is a brand new model. Regardless of how potential buyers want to valuate whether the new price is justifiable or not, Ming has offered new features and components within the new model to say "hey, it's a new model with new features. we want to sell it for $5,500."

Perhaps the Omega 321 Ed White is probably a more apt example. They released a "seemingly similar" "new" model with slight changes to the dial (probably not obvious to non-Omega fans) and this "new" movement, which is actually an improved carbon copy of an old one. And they priced it at $14k, roughly 2-3x of a speedie pro. Some people made a stink about it, some people thought it was cool, but was strategically effective in terms of branding and sales? I think so.

If Ming increased the price of their previous or current models by 2-3x, then I would seriously question them. And if they're not so transparent about it, I'd think they're profiteering. But this is not the case. They released a new model, were very transparent about the new features (whatever/however people want to justify the difference in value/cost), and it sold out.

Seems like a solid strategy to me. Also, I don't have empirical data on this (except for the literal 57 seconds that it took to sell out the last batch, which I timed in front of my computer), but based on how much quicker it took to sell out this model/batch compared to the last models, I'd argue that Ming's fanbase and potential customer base grew, not shrank.

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Old 27 January 2021, 02:25 AM   #50
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I think it's rather ridiculous to claim I'm making up the Ming hype. Should I start providing a bibliography before commenting now? There was an article in Hodinkee recently on this Ming release that was very positive, mentioning how it was already sold out, along with every other Ming (which sounds pretty hype-y to me). Do you actually think it's a stretch to say there is hype around Ming? Or are you just upset some people don't share your taste in watches...
Which segments of the Hodinkee article are you talking about in terms of being "positive"?

Mentioning that it was already sold out is a fact, not opinion. I knew that even before I read the Hodinkee article.

Yes, Hodinkee tends to have a positive voice, but that seems appropriate for a watch blog/publication/whatever rather than a critic. The Hodinkee voice is apparent in pretty much most, if not all, of their articles.

I think there is "hype" around Ming, so maybe it is indeed "Ming hype", but I really can't point to anything that Hodinkee's done to hype Ming up.

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Old 27 January 2021, 02:26 AM   #51
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This whole “hodinkee” hype is kind of getting out of control in terms of people using that to discredit the quality of a product. Every brand, whether an advertisement in a magazine or an IG post, is trying its best to “hype” its product. Has been that way for all time and why lots of people have jobs in advertising. But to then have that strategy be successful and use it to discredit the product is rubbish.

I’ve got to be honest, having purchased two of their collaborations, the IWC and recent Blancpain FF, I think they do a very good job with these pieces. I love my FF and many of the tweaks they made on that one were exactly why I bought I...I didn’t like the date, or the brand name engraved on the side, or the polished case. To each their own, but let’s stop pretending that hodinkee is just hype and is actually quite successful in what it is trying to accomplish.
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Old 27 January 2021, 02:35 AM   #52
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Hyping something up means to get people excited. So yes, Hodinkee does a very good job at hyping up new watches
Wow. I suggest you stay off the internet. And don't look at magazines. And, turn off the TV when commercials come on. Best yet, don't check your mail either.

Listen, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but your comments are purely your opinion and I think it's disingenuous to point the finger at Hodinkee to provide cover for it. Hodinkee has not hyped Ming - I see nothing more than the typical coverage they give to any other watch that is new on the market.

If you don't like Ming, great. Many people don't, just like many people don't like Rolex, GS, AP, or whatever. I won't know if I am a true fan until I get their watch. We'll see...
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Old 28 June 2021, 10:26 PM   #53
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I didn't think that 6 months later, I'd be the owner one of one of these watches, but here I am:









I also did a detailed review of it here if anyone is interested - https://youtu.be/dctjjezkx_g
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Old 1 July 2021, 12:11 AM   #54
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I didn't think that 6 months later, I'd be the owner one of one of these watches, but here I am:









I also did a detailed review of it here if anyone is interested - https://youtu.be/dctjjezkx_g
A typically thorough and useful review; thanks. I got mine in September 2020 and have been well pleased. It wears nicely on the universal bracelet, too.
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