Legend status: manual Daytona v. modern Nautilus

[kronomentro]

Just a thought/question I've had lately and wanted to put out for the opinion of you esteemed Patek enthusiasts on a Rolex forum:

With the ongoing craze for the Nautilus causing steel 5711/12 5980s/90s to reach 2nd hand prices closer to the 50-60k mark, do any of you consider the relative (value and collectibility) merit of purchasing a manual wound Daytona instead? I suspect the vast majority of you (and myself I'll say) all waited and purchased your Nautilus from an AD at retail. But, when multiple treads on this forum have started asking how many non coveted PM Pateks one has to purchase from an AD to be considered for the opportunity to purchase a steel 5711 for 30k, obviously we all see at least a slight bubble. It hard to predict the future but manual wound Daytonas have been the top echelon of Rolex and sport but really all watch collectibility for a generation. Can we say the same for the modern Nautilus in whatever metal? These are tribute models produced for the last 12 years and many many still in active production. I know they are icons in some capacity but we arent talking about the original 3700. The manual wound Daytonas are legendary, but can we say the same for the modern incarnation of the Nautilus? I'd say no for modern Patek in general unless were talking about the Lemania Pateks/5370s/5131s and of course the sky-moons/minute repeaters. What do you all think?

[Wembleyisgreen]

The Nautilus will always be held in high regard.

[sensui]

If I was paying a premium, I'd do a 4 digit Daytona in a heartbeat (and I vote with my wallet). There's just nothing else like it. Unfortunately with the market now, the 50k mark for a 5711/12 wouldn't get you very far on the 727 Daytona world @ all. So it's kind of a moot comparison......but for sure I'd sooner put that 50k toward a vintage Daytona versus a Nautilus.

[AK797]

The Nautilus is to (sports) WIS what a Rolex is to normal people. It's the go to statement piece.

[codecow]

I liked my Daytona but ultimately sold it, so no.

[soundserious]

I own both. Admittedly I’ve owned them for several years so my cost basis is relatively low,

I think it’s a fair question though, which offers more collector value at this point? Vintage Daytona is the gold standard of watch collecting and one in good shape will only appreciate in value as the years go by. I wouldn’t sell my relatively common relatively good shape 6239 for triple what I paid 5 years ago for example.

[SL BRABUS]

Originally Posted by sensui

If I was paying a premium, I'd do a 4 digit Daytona in a heartbeat (and I vote with my wallet). There's just nothing else like it. Unfortunately with the market now, the 50k mark for a 5711/12 wouldn't get you very far on the 727 Daytona world @ all. So it's kind of a moot comparison......but for sure I'd sooner put that 50k toward a vintage Daytona versus a Nautilus.

This....^^^....

No brainer it got to be the Daytona...

[GB-man]

Unfortunately you’ll need 75-80k to even sniff a clean 6263, more for an ideal example.

Which one is a better buy at this point? I’d have to say Daytona but both are really soaring.

I’ll never forget the first 4 digit Daytona I seriously considered buying was 36k and everyone was like what a horrible price!

Marcelo Pisani said that they could ask whatever they want because it was a correct and clean example. It sat for a few weeks then sold. 6363 silver dial big red. Missed opportunity

[thomaspp]

5711 etc have been made in many more numbers than 3700. Will a 5711 be worth 100k like a manually wound Daytona is today? No I don’t think so and the current phenomenon is on the last of its leg is my best guess.

That being said, it does not get much better than manual wind daytonas and nautili. One of my 6263s and 3700 1/a here. Love these watches frankly




The next best thing: lemania patek indeed!!!


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[thomaspp]

And a truly top screwdown manual wind Daytona is now $100k


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[kronomentro]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

And a truly top screwdown manual wind Daytona is now $100k


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Thank you for your impressions as collectors of both manual Daytonas and 3700s. Yes, agree top non-PN screw downs are in that 75-100k range so not quite a fair comparison to the 5711 2nd hand, but how about the 6239s/6262s? Seems they can be had for 50-60k on Chrono24s. What are your impressions of those? I know they arent anywhere near the pinnacle of Daytona collecting but I'd say neither is a 5711 to PP by any means. I would suspect the 6239 is closer tho right?

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by kronomentro

Thank you for your impressions as collectors of both manual Daytonas and 3700s. Yes, agree top non-PN screw downs are in that 75-100k range so not quite a fair comparison to the 5711 2nd hand, but how about the 6239s/6262s? Seems they can be had for 50-60k on Chrono24s. What are your impressions of those? I know they arent anywhere near the pinnacle of Daytona collecting but I'd say neither is a 5711 to PP by any means. I would suspect the 6239 is closer tho right?

Pump pusher daytonas are great and preferred by some purists - more true vintage. I like the “beefier” feel and look of a screwdown personally and the 6263 with the bezel is my favorite all around combination. I would be careful about buying a vintage Daytona from chrono 24 from random dealers. Need to develop a bit of expertise to buy big vintage rolex today’s market am afraid!




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[Jay (Eire)]

Purely $ for $ consideration of future value then no doubt the Daytona.

But as others have said it's not exactly the same dollars.


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[soundserious]

One major advantage of the 5711 is that authenticity can be confirmed in that you can buy a fully documented watch with all box and papers relatively easily. Not so easy with the vintage Daytona.

[Jay (Eire)]

Originally Posted by soundserious

One major advantage of the 5711 is that authenticity can be confirmed in that you can buy a fully documented watch with all box and papers relatively easily. Not so easy with the vintage Daytona.

Yes, more risk. But I think that is something which will reward the diligent and knowledgeable Daytona buyer in the future.

Usually people take more risk because the upside is greater, no different here.



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[kronomentro]

Originally Posted by Jay (Eire)

Yes, more risk. But I think that is something which will reward the diligent and knowledgeable Daytona buyer in the future.

Usually people take more risk because the upside is greater, no different here.



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As such, for those of you who have purchased 4 digit daytonas second hand, have you stuck to sellers on Rolex Passion Report?

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by kronomentro

As such, for those of you who have purchased 4 digit daytonas second hand, have you stuck to sellers on Rolex Passion Report?

Originally Posted by soundserious

One major advantage of the 5711 is that authenticity can be confirmed in that you can buy a fully documented watch with all box and papers relatively easily. Not so easy with the vintage Daytona.

Originally Posted by Jay (Eire)

Yes, more risk. But I think that is something which will reward the diligent and knowledgeable Daytona buyer in the future.

Usually people take more risk because the upside is greater, no different here.



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Not risky to buy a known and standard production 6263/65 IMHO. There is a ton of knowledge out there and pretty easy to find the same Watch having come up for sale in the past of compare or find someone you trust. Where people get in trouble is the more rare stuff (ie solo dials, stamped dials etc). There is a thread in the vintage Rolex subforum on “trusted dealers” and no RPM is not the extent of the list of dealers. Just do your basic diligence, ask questions about originality (and service parts) etc.

PS: there are some top fake 5711s out there! But just like anyone who really knows, not a concern. There is a lot of unwarranted fear mongering in vintage Rolex.... I guess people want an excuse to not jump in


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[sensui]

Originally Posted by kronomentro

As such, for those of you who have purchased 4 digit daytonas second hand, have you stuck to sellers on Rolex Passion Report?

I went through the hunt and went through a known seller. I also did my research on the reference for almost a year before finding the right watch/decided to jump. The fake parts are so good out there now I know even experts would have a rough time just looking at the watch with regular pictures. Had mine fully serviced by someone that's used to them for over 40 years and took detailed pictures of the components to verify as well. Left no stone unturned. This was my grail and left me immensely satisfied through the research/path....I highly suggest over does their own due diligence buying this watch.

I do agree with thomaspp to stay away from rare prototype dials etc...questionable origin to start with.

It is a real minefield when we're talking vintage Daytona.

[francoamerican]

I've been back and forth on vintage vs modern. I think vintage is a fantastic option for 4th or 5th or nth watch. Once you have your core daily watch rotation dialed in, to me there is much more romance in a vintage watch that was not made at least partially with computers.

I'd pick up the 40K pre daytona for sale on a well known watch blog over a 40k nautilus (IF i otherwise didn't want to wear a nautilus regularly:)

Your case is especially tricky because the nautilus is probably the ultimate daily wearer for most.

[soundserious]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

Not risky to buy a known and standard production 6263/65 IMHO. There is a ton of knowledge out there and pretty easy to find the same Watch having come up for sale in the past of compare or find someone you trust. Where people get in trouble is the more rare stuff (ie solo dials, stamped dials etc). There is a thread in the vintage Rolex subforum on “trusted dealers” and no RPM is not the extent of the list of dealers. Just do your basic diligence, ask questions about originality (and service parts) etc.

PS: there are some top fake 5711s out there! But just like anyone who really knows, not a concern. There is a lot of unwarranted fear mongering in vintage Rolex.... I guess people want an excuse to not jump in


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Oh no argument here, just stating a difference between these two. Own both, love both. A healthy dose of skepticism will serve a buyer well when it comes to $50,000+ vintage Rolex watches.

[theflywrist]

I own and enjoy the heck out of my 5711. Have owned it for almost 2 years and haven’t ever thought of selling it.
Having said this, for me nothing really comes close to the charm of a quality and beautifully aged Vintage Rolex, and especially not a Daytona. Pure magic on the wrist really.

[sensui]

Originally Posted by theflywrist

I own and enjoy the heck out of my 5711. Have owned it for almost 2 years and haven’t ever thought of selling it.
Having said this, for me nothing really comes close to the charm of a quality and beautifully aged Vintage Rolex, and especially not a Daytona. Pure magic on the wrist really.

That is beautiful. It's hard to debate the strength/heritage of Rolex sport watches.