Help with this 1016

[rl96701]

Hello All,

Does this piece look legit to you?
Rolex Explorer 1016
Tiffany Dial
2 mil serial

Any input will be greatly appreciated! Thanks!


















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[05carbondrz]

No Tiffany Paperwork = No Deal to most serious Collectors.

[77T]

I don’t believe it is worth the $17,000+ that seller is asking without documentation. You have to approach it as a refinished dial.

I’m not saying it’s refinished - I mean valuation-wise.

Here’s a better closeup from his listing.



I don’t like the color shift in the paint - the Tiffany & Co is brighter by a few shades. If it was all the paint was original on the dial, that wouldn’t be the case IMHO.

I’ll let the vintage cognoscenti opine further, though.


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[Swearengen]

Does the minute hand look a bit short for a 1016?

[sillo]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

No Tiffany Paperwork = No Deal to most serious Collectors.

This is how I feel every time I see a Tiffany dialed watch. Not that I could ever afford one, but if I could I wouldn't even consider one without some papers.

[rl96701]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

Does the minute hand look a bit short for a 1016?

Here is another random 1016 the hands look the same to me.



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[rl96701]

Originally Posted by sillo38

This is how I feel every time I see a Tiffany dialed watch. Not that I could ever afford one, but if I could I wouldn't even consider one without some papers.

Does your opinion change if the piece is sent to a Rolex service center and has service papers verifying the Tiffany dial?


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[rl96701]

Originally Posted by 77T

I don’t believe it is worth the $17,000+ that seller is asking without documentation. You have to approach it as a refinished dial.

I’m not saying it’s refinished - I mean valuation-wise.

Here’s a better closeup from his listing.



I don’t like the color shift in the paint - the Tiffany & Co is brighter by a few shades. If it was all the paint was original on the dial, that wouldn’t be the case IMHO.

I’ll let the vintage cognoscenti opine further, though.


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Thanks for the input. I’ve seen 1016 matte dial range from 10k-15k with no papers..... anything papered at +20k.

I guess my concern is if it looks authentic


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[77T]

Originally Posted by rl96701

I guess my concern is if it looks authentic

I don't question the watch itself - just focusing on the dial.
The Tiffany part seems inconsistent.

But as others have said, I wouldn't take 5 seconds considering this watch without authentic documentation from the original sale - no papers, no deal is my advice.

[sillo]

Originally Posted by rl96701

Does your opinion change if the piece is sent to a Rolex service center and has service papers verifying the Tiffany dial?


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Not that I have any experience with that, but I don’t think Rolex will verify anything other than having authentic parts. It could easily be an authentic dial with added text. They don’t have an extract from the archives system like omega or other companies.


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[05carbondrz]

Originally Posted by sillo38

Not that I have any experience with that, but I don’t think Rolex will verify anything other than having authentic parts. It could easily be an authentic dial with added text. They don’t have an extract from the archives system like omega or other companies.


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I believe you are correct,Rolex won’t authenticate the Tiffany text on the Dial.

[77T]

Originally Posted by sillo38

Not that I have any experience with that, but I don’t think Rolex will verify anything other than having authentic parts. It could easily be an authentic dial with added text. They don’t have an extract from the archives system like omega or other companies.


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While Rolex doesn’t offer a verification service per se, there is a way...

First off, Rolex knows which watches were sent to US Country Code. They also know which ones were sent to Tiffany once here. So...if you sent in a Tiffany watch to RSC and asked for an estimate for routine overhaul you pay a small charge.

If they come back to you advising the dial must be replaced for being inauthentic, then you’ve learned something (too late, of course). That would disprove the Tiffany pedigree.

But if the estimate is routine service items you know that it passes the test that it’s a US watch and was sent to Tiffany. It doesn’t prove anything conclusively but at least you know more and your level of confidence is higher.


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[roh123]

I wouldn’t really trust Rolex to know if a Tiffany print is correct. Co-branded dials had the double name added after it left the factory. Therefore the color could of course be different from the rest of the text. There are different Tiffany buffers to compare against but in the end it is very difficult to authenticate. What you can ask from Rolex is to what country a watch was sold. Not US and it is easy.

Personally I would not buy without Tiffany paperwork. It’s just too big of a risk. Perhaps I would buy through an auction house if I really wanted one without papers. Then at least the auction house guarantees authenticity. That will help the day I need to sell the watch (even if it is wrong). Overall this is too often faked to motivate paying premium. Doesn’t really make it much more fun either imho. Each to their own I guess..

This watch have replacement hands. Very common issue with Explorers. No 1016 left the factory with the short minute hand. It is a standard replacement hand set for subs. Normally it is quite easy to spot even if the seller claims it is original. I would guess the dial glows under UV. Later service hands (if tritium) normally don’t. Still; the simple and obvious tell is that the minute hand is too short.

[05carbondrz]

Originally Posted by roh123

I wouldn’t really trust Rolex to know if a Tiffany print is correct. Co-branded dials had the double name added after it left the factory. Therefore the color could of course be different from the rest of the text. There are different Tiffany buffers to compare against but in the end it is very difficult to authenticate. What you can ask from Rolex is to what country a watch was sold. Not US and it is easy.

Personally I would not buy without Tiffany paperwork. It’s just too big of a risk. Perhaps I would buy through an auction house if I really wanted one without papers. Then at least the auction house guarantees authenticity. That will help the day I need to sell the watch (even if it is wrong). Overall this is too often faked to motivate paying premium. Doesn’t really make it much more fun either imho. Each to their own I guess..

This watch have replacement hands. Very common issue with Explorers. No 1016 left the factory with the short minute hand. It is a standard replacement hand set for subs. Normally it is quite easy to spot even if the seller claims it is original. I would guess the dial glows under UV. Later service hands (if tritium) normally don’t. Still; the simple and obvious tell is that the minute hand is too short.

So because a Auction House Authenticates a known incorrect Piece it somehow makes it Correct? Just trying to understand your logic here.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

So because a Auction House Authenticates a known incorrect Piece it somehow makes it Correct? Just trying to understand your logic here.

No. It makes it easier to move without papers. Some people put value on provenance like that. This is also why it is so crucial that auction houses (*coff* AQ *coff*) don’t sell crap. Fakers and scumbags use them to validate questionable pieces sometimes.

That said you should always be careful. Just saying that a watch that have been sold by Christies, Phillips etc will always have that history. I would still only buy if I believed in the piece but a watch like this one would be easier to move in the future if it once was sold in that same condition by an authourity. Also; if it somehow got proved incorrect the auction house would, very confidentially, compensate their mistake and make the watch dissapear.

[kippyhunt]

The middle stroke of the "Es" in "Registered Design" (engraving between lugs) looks to be the same length as the top and bottom stroke (unless it is the photos or my eyes are deceiving me) which is a common error made by Fakers ... genuine Rolex cases always have the middle stroke shorter?

[roh123]

Originally Posted by kippyhunt

The middle stroke of the "Es" in "Registered Design" (engraving between lugs) looks to be the same length as the top and bottom stroke (unless it is the photos or my eyes are deceiving me) which is a common error made by Fakers ... genuine Rolex cases always have the middle stroke shorter?

Engraving does indeed look poor in more ways than one.



Let’s see the other side as well.

[rl96701]

Originally Posted by roh123

Engraving does indeed look poor in more ways than one.



Let’s see the other side as well.

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[roh123]

[sillo]

The plot thickens

[rl96701]

Originally Posted by 77T

While Rolex doesn’t offer a verification service per se, there is a way...

First off, Rolex knows which watches were sent to US Country Code. They also know which ones were sent to Tiffany once here. So...if you sent in a Tiffany watch to RSC and asked for an estimate for routine overhaul you pay a small charge.

If they come back to you advising the dial must be replaced for being inauthentic, then you’ve learned something (too late, of course). That would disprove the Tiffany pedigree.

But if the estimate is routine service items you know that it passes the test that it’s a US watch and was sent to Tiffany. It doesn’t prove anything conclusively but at least you know more and your level of confidence is higher.


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Wouldn’t a rsc like this verify it’s authenticity?


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[rl96701]

Originally Posted by roh123

Interesting.... thanks for the photos


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[rl96701]

Originally Posted by roh123

I wouldn’t really trust Rolex to know if a Tiffany print is correct. Co-branded dials had the double name added after it left the factory. Therefore the color could of course be different from the rest of the text. There are different Tiffany buffers to compare against but in the end it is very difficult to authenticate. What you can ask from Rolex is to what country a watch was sold. Not US and it is easy.

Personally I would not buy without Tiffany paperwork. It’s just too big of a risk. Perhaps I would buy through an auction house if I really wanted one without papers. Then at least the auction house guarantees authenticity. That will help the day I need to sell the watch (even if it is wrong). Overall this is too often faked to motivate paying premium. Doesn’t really make it much more fun either imho. Each to their own I guess..

This watch have replacement hands. Very common issue with Explorers. No 1016 left the factory with the short minute hand. It is a standard replacement hand set for subs. Normally it is quite easy to spot even if the seller claims it is original. I would guess the dial glows under UV. Later service hands (if tritium) normally don’t. Still; the simple and obvious tell is that the minute hand is too short.

What are the correct length of the hands?

Should it extend beyond the inside ring of minute ticks?



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[roh123]

Originally Posted by rl96701

What are the correct length of the hands?

Should it extend beyond the inside ring of minute ticks?



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Easiest is just to look at the lume on the minute hand. It should extend past the minute marker on the dial. Like this one.

[77T]

Originally Posted by rl96701

Wouldn’t a rsc like this verify it’s authenticity?


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In brief, yes.
That is an example of a successful use of my suggested path. In that case, the watch went through service with no issues regarding authenticity including its Tiffany dial.

Just remember, if you do buy this 1016 we are discussing (the one without papers coming from Hong Kong) the result could be the opposite. The risk would be yours.

Financially speaking you’re paying a few thousand more than an average 1016 without documentation. If it is not authentic you lose everything. If just the dial is off, you lose the premium you paid over an average 1016.

But...if you are on the hunt and you smell a chance to get what you want - and you can afford to lose that money on the gamble - let us know how it turns out.

There has been some misinformation about what Rolex does and doesn’t know - I’ll leave that to another day. Trust me, if it’s wrong in any way, they will let you know what must be replaced after they check it out.

Last risk - one that I hope won’t happen to anyone. You could lose the money and the watch if RUSA determines this watch is on the theft report at Rolex.

Much success if you move forward with the purchase. I hope to hear updates one way or the other.


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[roh123]

Why do you think Rolex can tell if a Tiffany print is ok or not? I think they will write it on the card if the dial itself is authentic and has a good enough looking double sign. Not like the people at a Rolex Service Center are trained to recognise a print done by a retailer in the 60’s. Or if it was added by sketchy Italians last month.

[77T]

Originally Posted by roh123

Why do you think Rolex can tell if a Tiffany print is ok or not? I think they will write it on the card if the dial itself is authentic and has a good enough looking double sign. Not like the people at a Rolex Service Center are trained to recognise a print done by a retailer in the 60’s. Or if it was added by sketchy Italians last month.

Because Rolex actually did some of the Tiffany dials themselves. And in the timeframe that this particular watch was made falls right in that period. In the beginning mid-late 1950’s Tiffany did all the stamping. Then the volume outstripped their meager watchmaking resources to disassemble the watch, stamp the dial and then reassemble it again. This also cause errors and rework. Tiffany approaches Rolex and custom printing was done on dials by Rolex for Tiffany. (Edit: I should have also said Tiffany didn’t stop stamping - just that Rolex began to stamp Tiffany dials, too)

Eventually the relationship broke down and caused a big brouhaha in 1990’s.

But it isn’t the RSC watchmaker that determines this via visual inspection. It is the record keeping that determines if the watch was stamped by Rolex, or was shipped directly to the Tiffany 5th Av shop where they also were custom stamping dials.

Either way, Rolex will know.

Sometimes it’s simple - like someone said earlier - if Watch left Rolex for another country then fake stamping. Or perhaps it’s even an entirely fake dial.

Another simple one - if Rolex stamped it then their records show that just like other custom dials they made for other firms in the past or sovereign heads of state.

It gets more complicated if the watch was sent to RUSA unstamped - and RUSA shipped to 5th Av Tiffany’s - and Tiffany stamped it. Then RSC uses cross reference to determine the AD that received the watch.

If RUSA had shipped the watch to any other AD, then fake stamping.

So it’s not black and white, but Rolex will tell you on their repair order if the Tiffany dial has to be replaced.


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[roh123]

I am fairly certain the retailers did the co-branding themselves. Meaning Rolex USA imported the watch and then sold it to Tiffanys who printed their logo on it. Then the record will show the country where it was delivered and not much more. This is at least how my research have gone with some pieces that I have owned with SyL, Tiffany and in one case Joyeria Riviera branding. I have never experienced Rolex to do extracts saying to whom a watch was sold. I really doubt that they would check records and write the configuration on a warranty card. I think it is more the RSC staff adding it as they saw it.

But I have no clue after seeing that 1655. When I have had Rolex research I have received the info on the invoice from Rolex Bexley just saying the watch was delivered to USA/Argentina/whatever and the date it was sent.

[rl96701]

Regarding the length on the minute hand

Are the long or short hands the original version?

Is this a confirmed or commonly known/accepted trait?


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[roh123]

Originally Posted by rl96701

Regarding the length on the minute hand

Are the long or short hands the original version?

Is this a confirmed or commonly known/accepted trait?


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Check any catalogue picture and you will always see the longer minute hand.