Bad officers make me appreciate the many good ones

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by airchitect

OP, the topic of LEO’s and military are always touchy subjects.

Do we need them? Of course.

Are most awesome people? Yep.

But are they all hero’s just for wearing a uniform? Fraid not.

Do the bad apples get all the press? Sure do.

Why? Simple. If you are allowed to walk around in society with the power to command people to do as you say with a possible consequence for not doing so being death, you must be held to a far higher standard than everyone else. There are awesome cops out there but when the bad ones act out, the results can be catastrophic.

IMHO the focus with all of this needs to be less on individual officers and more on the cultural issues within the institutions that lead to the bad apples doing what they do. I’ve seen some really crummy cops and great ones but there’s so much more to it than that. Dare I say, most people on this forum have most likely never experienced anything resembling police action against them other than a possible ticket so your post will most likely elicit only “I love LEOs” comments. But there are a whole lot of people out there who, for one reason or another, have a negative reaction to those in uniform. It’s truly an issue I’d love to see fixed. I’ve most always had fine experiences with LEO’s and recognize they are people like everyone else…. That said what’s on their waist and the power granted to them elevates the standards by which they are measured. Dunno how it gets fixed, but I do know it isn’t disbanding police departments nor is it another useless war on drugs or monetizing police actions (ie make a bust, seize property, sell property, keep cash). It’s a damn complex situation……


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Great post, this reflects my opinion as well. Systemic problems allow bad apples to keep on being bad apples without significant consequences. Qualified immunity is a double-edged sword. Depending on leadership and strong voices in a particular department, it can be challenging for officers who would like to impart desirable cultural and systemic changes in their departments for fear of backlash from superiors and any alpha/machismo colleagues.

I've personally had both excellent and unpleasant interactions with LEOs. I'm sure it was a combination of the particular LEO's personality and the quality of leadership in their respective departments.

[Atone]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Nice balanced responses here.

EVERYONE know we need LEOs. Part of the defunding controversy is about throwing money at the police, for things that the police are, and were never trained for. Tons of stories about terrible outcomes from police responding to a mental health crisis and killing the person. So the question is, should police be the agency responding to this situation?

Another issue is the militarization of the police. Possibly the law of unintended consequences here. All this military equipment left over from wars, what to do with it. I know, give it to the cops. The first backlash I remember was after the Boston Marathon bombing and people saw the police riding around looking like an occupying army with armored personnel carriers et all. It looked like a bunch of weekend warriors playing soldier. At one point firing hundreds of rounds of ammunition into a boat. Bad optics.

I think there are two problems, one of which is starting to be addressed. But when the US was formed they were smart enough to make sure that there was civilian control over the military. Macho type A's running amok is a recipe for disaster in a country.

Unfortunately as police forces morphed and evolved those same civilian controls were not necessarily in place. The thinking was, just keep law and order, and we'll leave you alone. Basically the rich making sure that their property was protected. In my opinion more civilian control is necessary. I don't think ANY organization with this kind of power should be as autonomous as the police are, and even if there are command controls, the unions enable some officers to run amok.

The second thing is, the police are a closed society, a brotherhood, they protect their own, for obvious reasons, they promote their own, and too often the Type A personality will soon rule the roost which unfortunately are not necessarily the smartest/wisest ones. And in a lot of cases off duty police officers only interact with other officers. They don't even live in the cities they work in. The "us vs them" mentality. A difficult culture to change. The abuses in various cities through the years is legendary. LA, Philly, NY, Boston etc and the "old ways" of policing.

The other thing is the variety of police responsibilities. Obviously the police need a SWAT group, which may be a bit "cowboy" for normal police work but is still a necessary unit. But should these same guys be policing on the streets? Are these Type A, adrenaline junkies who you want doing traffic stops. And are ex-military the best people to have doing police work? And are all the various online groups and seminars where military and police officers intermingle and trade tactics a good mix.

I had a lot of cop friends when I was in Sonoma County, from retired SF officers, to police chiefs in small towns, to a bunch of young guys going in because it was one of the only career choices they could really find. I asked one of them why so many military guys go in, and he said they are recruited because one, they've been trained to follow orders, and two, they're already familiar with firearms. I though, hmmmm, is that really the best criteria for finding police officers??

Anyways the culture is slowly changing hopefully, bad officers are not being able to rotate out of one place to another as easily now, there are far greater repercussions for bad shootings, and perhaps the bad ones will be rooted out better.

It's a tough job, but all the ones I know are all great people and got in for the right reasons. And sadly, the police officer that lived across the street from me, always kept it quiet what he did for a living when off duty in public, because of the way the police are perceived by some of the public now. That can't be good for morale.

But the irony of that situation is that minorities have always complained about being "profiled" by police, meaning because for example, some black people committed a crime that ALL black people commit crimes, and now because some cop shot some unarmed persons somewhere in the US, that ALL cops are being "profiled" as bad.

Very well stated and thoughtful post. LEO’s do carry a massive amount of power over the citizenry. In the wrong hands this is catastrophic, in the right hands, it is a gift and deserves the highest honors and praise. I am a mental health professional and agree that there are way too many cops called in to manage situations I’d be stumped in and a gun surely isn’t the tool to bring to that event (I’m not anti gun at all btw). I have had mostly decent interactions with police even when I was young and liked to skirt the fringes of the law but I’m not of the ‘profile’ that solicits a stronger response sometimes. It’s so sad to see how such important roles have been devalued in our society. Teachers and cops should be among the highest revered and, IMO, receive MUCH better compensation. What they do is just too critical. I don’t know what the answer is.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by daveathall

These are just 2 from many, many every day occupancies.

Should have been occurrences. Beaten by spell check.

[donas]

Originally Posted by Blansky

The other thing is the variety of police responsibilities. Obviously the police need a SWAT group, which may be a bit "cowboy" for normal police work but is still a necessary unit. But should these same guys be policing on the streets? Are these Type A, adrenaline junkies who you want doing traffic stops. And are ex-military the best people to have doing police work? And are all the various online groups and seminars where military and police officers intermingle and trade tactics a good mix.

As a retired LEO who spent 16 years on SWAT and retired as the SWAT Commander, I must inform you that you watch too many movies. I will agree that it takes a certain personality to perform this job, particularly, one that won't give up. Failure is not an option for this team as they are sent to handle the situations others can not.

Maybe in decades past these were knuckle dragging goons, but SWAT is a thinking man's game. As a matter of fact, a long standing interview question is, "what is the last book you read and what did you gain from it".

To respond to the notion of these "groups" performing normal duties, this is an asset to the "normal" patrol officer. To have those who are more highly trained and skilled working along side the less knowledgeable, guiding them, makes everyone safer, including the citizens.

[Dan Pierce]

More Andy's, less Barney's.
dP

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by donas

As a retired LEO who spent 16 years on SWAT and retired as the SWAT Commander, I must inform you that you watch too many movies. I will agree that it takes a certain personality to perform this job, particularly, one that won't give up. Failure is not an option for this team as they are sent to handle the situations others can not.

Maybe in decades past these were knuckle dragging goons, but SWAT is a thinking man's game. As a matter of fact, a long standing interview question is, "what is the last book you read and what did you gain from it".

To respond to the notion of these "groups" performing normal duties, this is an asset to the "normal" patrol officer. To have those who are more highly trained and skilled working along side the less knowledgeable, guiding them, makes everyone safer, including the citizens.

I have great respect for what you do and what you say.

For some strange reasons I've been around off duty cops my whole life. I grew up in a city in Canada that was an RCMP training facility. Dozens of recruits floating around town, which were easily identifiable with the haircuts (there was very little military presence there so the hair cuts were a giveaway). I photographed maybe 5 RCMP weddings. A girl I lived with in my 30s for four years, her ex was RCMP, a narc for a while. In LA I worked as a bouncer and the Santa Monica police were around all the time. And as I said in Sonoma County I played hockey with a dozen of them. So that's like 40 some years of exposure.

It was interesting because in all cases they had a swagger. The "I may just come over there and kick your ass" kind of vibe. Interestingly enough, the new ones who were just in a couple of years in Sonoma County were not like that at all. Far more low key. Still played tough hockey but nowhere near as Type A. The obvious physical intimidation and masked aggression of the older ones was absent in the new ones.

In fact if you watched the TV Show, Blue Bloods the generations were much like that.

I'm guessing you cycled through a lot of "generations" in your experience as well.

I will say though I don't think hardly anybody goes into policing with bad intentions. I worked in South Central LA in 88 for around a year, a block or two away from where the riots started in 1992. I saw the gang bangers on a daily basis, the mothers that would sell their kids for crack, the deplorable conditions, the hatred between the police and the people who lived there. The love/hate relationship where they needed protecting from the gangs and their daily interaction that was less than congenial with the police.

I can see how some members of the police would think these people are less than human. I can see how Rodney King happened. I could see how the riots happened.

My opinion on police didn't come from movies. I saw the traffic stops, the well dressed black people made to lie on the pavement on a traffic stop, just because.... A black doctor friend that was stopped once every few months while working nights. I've never been stopped.

I have two theories that guide human life. The golden rule, do unto others....., and the fact that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, and in both cases its so easy to be drawn to one or the other.

[donas]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I have great respect for what you do and what you say.

For some strange reasons I've been around off duty cops my whole life. I grew up in a city in Canada that was an RCMP training facility. Dozens of recruits floating around town, which were easily identifiable with the haircuts (there was very little military presence there so the hair cuts were a giveaway). I photographed maybe 5 RCMP weddings. A girl I lived with in my 30s for four years, her ex was RCMP, a narc for a while. In LA I worked as a bouncer and the Santa Monica police were around all the time. And as I said in Sonoma County I played hockey with a dozen of them. So that's like 40 some years of exposure.

It was interesting because in all cases they had a swagger. The "I may just come over there and kick your ass" kind of vibe. Interestingly enough, the new ones who were just in a couple of years in Sonoma County were not like that at all. Far more low key. Still played tough hockey but nowhere near as Type A. The obvious physical intimidation and masked aggression of the older ones was absent in the new ones.

In fact if you watched the TV Show, Blue Bloods the generations were much like that.

I'm guessing you cycled through a lot of "generations" in your experience as well.

I will say though I don't think hardly anybody goes into policing with bad intentions. I worked in South Central LA in 88 for around a year, a block or two away from where the riots started in 1992. I saw the gang bangers on a daily basis, the mothers that would sell their kids for crack, the deplorable conditions, the hatred between the police and the people who lived there. The love/hate relationship where they needed protecting from the gangs and their daily interaction that was less than congenial with the police.

I can see how some members of the police would think these people are less than human. I can see how Rodney King happened. I could see how the riots happened.

My opinion on police didn't come from movies. I saw the traffic stops, the well dressed black people made to lie on the pavement on a traffic stop, just because.... A black doctor friend that was stopped once every few months while working nights. I've never been stopped.

I have two theories that guide human life. The golden rule, do unto others....., and the fact that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, and in both cases its so easy to be drawn to one or the other.

I can understand your views and would agree some abuse the authority they have. It seems we could have a fun and rational discussion of the issues (in person, we'd both get banned on TRF LOL) It is an interesting comparison to the "older vs newer" generation officers....military vs required college degree, so to speak. These news guys can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, probably why they lost the swagger hahaha. I've literally seen new age officers tell someone they are under arrest then the people say, "no" and walk away.

On the same token, the criminal element has also changed immensely. Thirty years ago, a person would fight an officer, lose, go to the hospital, then jail and tell the officer - damn, you can fight. Now days, they punch the officer then want to sue the officer. Ok, off my soap box. Cheers Blansky!

[golftime]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

More Andy's, less Barney's.
dP

You do realize that was a TV show right?

[woodsworth]

Seems like being an LEO in today’s society is a thankless job, for the most part. After the many riots that have occurred on false pretences, I prefer to wait for body cam footage to form an opinion.

I am in no way excusing bad behavior from police, but too many times have I been swayed to believe an LEO has bad conduct, when in fact they are acting in accordance with their training and in good faith.

Thank you to all of the good officers out there risking their lives daily

[mountainjogger]

OP:

Get your point, and I have zero tolerance for racism, bullying or other bad behavior by any person. But please add some balance and include a link to a story where a cop is doing the right thing (like 99% of LE try to do every day) but are treated with disrespect, violence or death.

For me this issue is complicated but simple.

Complicated, because there are bad people in EVERY profession, clergy, doctors, lawyers, builders, etc. But the vast majority of cops a are people just like everyone else, except they are doing a job we do not want to, and without which society cannot function.

Complicated, because as with every profession, expectations and standards have increased. But budgets for training and salaries for LE have not kept up.

Complicated because unlike most professions which have gone the route of increasing specialization, law enforcement has gone the opposite direction. At least in the US, we expect LE to be mental health professionals, social workers, domestic problem solvers, family dispute mediators, guidance counselors, etc.

Simple, because if I am driving home in the dark and my vehicle breaks down on the side of the interstate, in the middle of a pandemic, in the pouring rain, in heavy traffic, in a construction zone with 18 wheelers crowding the median, guess who gets to stop and make a new friend?

Simple, because we all know the answer, a cop.

Simple, because this cop has already done something similar a dozen times today. And in NC, with no backup.

Simple, because this cop does not know what he or she will encounter and whether I am an average joe or someone who is mentally unstable with an illegal weapon.

And simple because although I am pretty well trained in most types of self-defense, I would not perform this job without a platoon of marines on overwatch.

Like I said. Complicated but simple. Oh, and by the way, thanks for stopping NC Highway Patrol

[Pw92676]

I would love to post some good stories. I just haven’t seen any recently other than small segments on Tv and local news.

You guys are all welcome to add the positive stories. Please do, would love to see some. Thanks for those who shared their positive anecdotes.

[golftime]

The news media loves to focus on the bad stuff while ignoring the 99% great stuff that LE does every day. It gets tiring. Recently I saw a post on another forum showing a video of an officer supposedly planting evidence during a car stop. The post generated dozens of anti-police comments. I later saw that same police department showed the video was misleading and in fact no evidence had been planted.

Not only is law enforcement a difficult job, the lack of appreciation shown by much of the American public towards a profession that is trying to keep them safe is appalling.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by Pw92676

I would love to post some good stories. I just haven’t seen any recently other thansmall segments on Tv and local news.

And that, in a nutshell is it. The one or two bad news stories make national news, yet good stories that are "small segments on TV and local news" are there in abundance, if you see some good LEO news on "local news," how many more bits of good news are only shown on local news in other areas?

Why don't you post the small segments you said you have seen on TV and local news? You have admitted that there is some, so why not share?

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by Pw92676

I would love to post some good stories. I just haven’t seen any recently other than small segments on Tv and local news.

Agree OP. Stories are hard to find in the media. Here is a link to several positive stories from a police org.

https://www.police1.com/the-up-beat/...0CdXt76U3u05s/

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by golftime

The news media loves to focus on the bad stuff while ignoring the 99% great stuff that LE does every day. It gets tiring. Recently I saw a post on another forum showing a video of an officer supposedly planting evidence during a car stop. The post generated dozens of anti-police comments. I later saw that same police department showed the video was misleading and in fact no evidence had been planted.

Not only is law enforcement a difficult job, the lack of appreciation shown by much of the American public towards a profession that is trying to keep them safe is appalling.

What 99% of the people seem ignore is who (literally) owns the news media.

[mountainjogger]

And here are some more.

https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/tag/police/

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by pickettt

What 99% of the people seem ignore is who (literally) owns the news media.

Good news does not sell. It has always been that way. Unfortunately.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

Good news does not sell. It has always been that way. Unfortunately.

Especially since network news departments fell under the control of the entertainment departments and ratings are king.

Back in the Cronkite days and the 1960s the news departments generally lost money but were a prestige thing for the networks.

Now with cable news and all the other posers all they care about is how to make enough noise to draw in viewers.

Anger, outrage and fear is all that matters because psychologists have told them that the hormones people produce from that is addictive, and people keep unwittingly coming back.

One reason why older audiences and boomers are/were taken in by it all is because they still think that the "news" is real.

[austinp]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Especially since network news departments fell under the control of the entertainment departments and ratings are king.

Back in the Cronkite days and the 1960s the news departments generally lost money but were a prestige thing for the networks.

Now with cable news and all the other posers all they care about is how to make enough noise to draw in viewers.

Anger, outrage and fear is all that matters because psychologists have told them that the hormones people produce from that is addictive, and people keep unwittingly coming back.

One reason why older audiences and boomers are/were taken in by it all is because they still think that the "news" is real.

Sad but true.


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[MrGoat]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Especially since network news departments fell under the control of the entertainment departments and ratings are king.

Back in the Cronkite days and the 1960s the news departments generally lost money but were a prestige thing for the networks.

Now with cable news and all the other posers all they care about is how to make enough noise to draw in viewers.

Anger, outrage and fear is all that matters because psychologists have told them that the hormones people produce from that is addictive, and people keep unwittingly coming back.

One reason why older audiences and boomers are/were taken in by it all is because they still think that the "news" is real.

Yep. We only look at the local news online and that’s not even every day.


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[Pw92676]

Originally Posted by daveathall

And that, in a nutshell is it. The one or two bad news stories make national news, yet good stories that are "small segments on TV and local news" are there in abundance, if you see some good LEO news on "local news," how many more bits of good news are only shown on local news in other areas?

Why don't you post the small segments you said you have seen on TV and local news? You have admitted that there is some, so why not share?

For some reason you either seem to be argumentative just for the sake of it. Maybe I said something to offend you on the tipping thread or somewhere else. I don’t see what you see wherever you live. Why don’t you just post what you have?

[White Collar Boy]

I’m as mad as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore!

Originally Posted by Blansky

Especially since network news departments fell under the control of the entertainment departments and ratings are king.

Back in the Cronkite days and the 1960s the news departments generally lost money but were a prestige thing for the networks.

Now with cable news and all the other posers all they care about is how to make enough noise to draw in viewers.

Anger, outrage and fear is all that matters because psychologists have told them that the hormones people produce from that is addictive, and people keep unwittingly coming back.

One reason why older audiences and boomers are/were taken in by it all is because they still think that the "news" is real.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

Good news does not sell. It has always been that way. Unfortunately.

That is true, but it doesn't answer the question.

Originally Posted by Blansky

Especially since network news departments fell under the control of the entertainment departments and ratings are king.

Back in the Cronkite days and the 1960s the news departments generally lost money but were a prestige thing for the networks.

Now with cable news and all the other posers all they care about is how to make enough noise to draw in viewers.

Anger, outrage and fear is all that matters because psychologists have told them that the hormones people produce from that is addictive, and people keep unwittingly coming back.

One reason why older audiences and boomers are/were taken in by it all is because they still think that the "news" is real.

Now we're getting somewhere.......but who is it?

[White Collar Boy]

pickett, are you referring to Rupert Murdoch? He seems to like stoking reactionary populism any way he can. It worked here in Australia, too.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by White Collar Boy

pickett, are you referring to Rupert Murdoch? He seems to like stoking reactionary populism any way he can. It worked here in Australia, too.

That's one of them. Any others, anyone?

[GB-man]

An incredibly difficult job that in my opinion could use more funding for more training and to attract more talent. Not going to happen but thats my take.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Blansky

One reason why older audiences and boomers are/were taken in by it all is because they still think that the "news" is real.

smh you make a good point

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by Pw92676

For some reason you either seem to be argumentative just for the sake of it. Maybe I said something to offend you on the tipping thread or somewhere else. I don’t see what you see wherever you live. Why don’t you just post what you have?

I dont live in your country but they are not hard to find.



Police officer helping the homeless using his own money;

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/20...newday-vpx.cnn

Again;

https://bbpd.org/homeless-outreach-team/

Again, Police officers using their own money.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2021/05...n-dollar-tree/

More here;

https://www.wnky.com/atlanta-officer...-homeless-man/

And here;

https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/la-west...-outreach-team

I'm from England, these are all from this year and I would imagine, further examples would be easier to find from someone living in the US. Surely one of the above would have served as a better illustration on a "This is why I love our police," post.

You haven't offended me on any of your posts on TRF, tbh, I quite enjoy them. I think you have a good original post, my only observation was that it would have been better served with a different illustration/example, which is what I said in my very first response which wasn't (well, wasn't meant to be) argumentative or an observation on motive.

[Pw92676]

Dave, Thank you for sharing these. I hadn’t seen any of them. Particularly poignant for us as my father in law ran a homeless shelter for years. I shared these with him and it bought a smile to his face as well.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by Pw92676

Dave, Thank you for sharing these. I hadn’t seen any of them. Particularly poignant for us as my father in law ran a homeless shelter for years. I shared these with him and it bought a smile to his face as well.