Elephant leather?

[Rock]

This topic often comes up on the BBC "Antiques Roadshow" program.
They will occasionally have old Ivory artifacts - many quite beautiful.
Problem is of course that the Ivory was obtained in a era when people were unaware that they were eradicating a species for it's by-products. In the First World, we are now aware of endangered species and responsible people avoid trade in certain items - regardless of whether they are new or old - as it only perpetuates the problem.
Farmed Crocodiles/Alligators are a different case entirely.
I suggest that people might like to get a Toad-skin watch band. In Australia we have millions of the buggers that we would like to get rid of and there is no prospect of them becoming endangered. Wild Deer, Feral Pigs and wild Buffalo in the Northern Territory fall into the same category.

[bayerische]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

That should do it...

IBTL

This is a thread that should never have been started. Nothing good about Elephant leather in any way. EOD

Agree 100%.

[Demosthene]

Originally Posted by Ruud Van Driver

Alligators are an endangered species too but no one gets bent out of shape with Panerai for using 'gator skin for straps. However, Panerai do state on their website that the skins are sourced from farmed 'gators specifically bred for purpose.

I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with farming elephants for the same reason but as has been said above, what right do we have to decide which animals are deemed acceptable for slaughter and which ones are sacrosanct?

Its a question of sourcing and sustainability.

Alligators are not endangered.
They were hunting and suffered habitat loss that drove them to the brink of extinction. The Endangered Species Act was applied and populations were monitored to ensure growth with controls on harvesting enforced.

African Elephants however come from unsurprisingly Africa.
Regulation is difficult to apply and enforce in a lot of countries (the Western black rhinoceros being a good example). Most of the hides legally exported come from South Africa, who are able to do so through having better controls in place and forced culls.

However as demand increases you can expect the value placed on the hides to rise resulting in more harmful hunting practices occurring elsewhere on the continent. At the moment their is this weird dichotomy between trade in ivory being mostly illegal to curtail demand yet other parts of the elephant are hunky dory.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

That should do it...

IBTL

This is a thread that should never have been started. Nothing good about Elephant leather in any way. EOD

Yep. Have to agree.

And I'll add to it just a bit.

Truly, the more I see this type of thing about harvesting animals, the more I lean towards becoming a vegetarian.

I simply don't want to harm any other creature.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by superdog

Yep. Have to agree.

And I'll add to it just a bit.

Truly, the more I see this type of thing about harvesting animals, the more I lean towards becoming a vegetarian.

I simply don't want to harm any other creature.

Leather car interiors too?

Half kidding. Animals are harvested for a lot of purposes that aren't food. This is a sticky subject that gets people upset just as quickly as conventional politics.

[Dartmouthbrian]

Originally Posted by 116500LN

Elephants die of natural causes. Also poached for the tusks. Might as well put the hide to good use.

It's not a matter of putting it to good use, if it were so simple, I would agree.. .Why not! But unfortunately it turns into a demand and then demand drives really bad behavior such as killing endangered species because price and demand are high.

Sorry to be a debbie downer on that. I think it's pretty leather, but my morals get in the way of owning it.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Leather car interiors too?

Half kidding. Animals are harvested for a lot of purposes that aren't food. This is a sticky subject that gets people upset just as quickly as conventional politics.

That's actually a great point. Hard for me to argue.

Let's just say I'd like to minimize the negative impact I make on the planet and it's guests.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by superdog

That's actually a great point. Hard for me to argue.

Let's just say I'd like to minimize the negative impact I make on the planet and it's guests.

I love high quality leather goods, especially shoes and belts. Even if I was vegan, I would still want my museum calf shoes.

I've slaughtered and butchered my own beef, so I know where those beautiful ribeyes come from. You do gain some perspective from harvesting and processing an animal yourself.

The supermarket has separated people from their food source by displaying the meat in a sanitized way. While hunting is not for everyone, hunters do tend to appreciate the value of the meat more than the typical consumer.

[arcadelt]

Originally Posted by Mick P

Chaps

Fashions and morals forever change.

Back in the Victoria era, it was the done thing for senior ranking officers in the army to have an elephants foot cut off and used in their office as a waste paper basket. There were no worries about preservation of an endangered species back then and these feet were highly polished and considered almost works of art.

Evidently Queen Victoria did not like them and they just "disappeared" overnight.

Regards

Mick

You don't have to go back as far as Victorian times. The attached photos was taken of me in 1969 by the local newspaper because my father had advertised these items for sale in the classifieds and it had attracted some interest. They were a gift from an uncle who was an artist and had lived for a time in India.

I remember these being in a back room in our house, which also contained the TV and music system (barely stereo in those days), and various other curiosities such as a lamp with a stand made out of emu legs. Suffice to say, I was not allowed to go into this room without my parents being present as I was just five years old...and in case you are wondering, we were not a particularly wealthy family - this was all in an ordinary suburban house.

[Ruud Van Driver]

Originally Posted by arcadelt

You don't have to go back as far as Victorian times. The attached photos was taken of me in 1969 by the local newspaper because my father had advertised these items for sale in the classifieds and it had attracted some interest. They were a gift from an uncle who was an artist and had lived for a time in India.

I remember these being in a back room in our house, which also contained the TV and music system (barely stereo in those days), and various other curiosities such as a lamp with a stand made out of emu legs. Suffice to say, I was not allowed to go into this room without my parents being present as I was just five years old...and in case you are wondering, we were not a particularly wealthy family - this was all in an ordinary suburban house.

You can tell it's an Indian tiger by the size of its ears. African tigers have much bigger ears

[rouxeny]

I'm going on a photo safari this year, and I'm sure we'll see elephants. I'd love to take my son on one someday. He's too young to go now. It bums me out that if things don't change, he'll never get to see an elephant outside of a zoo.

[SearChart]

I'm not against elephant leather, but I am against poaching.
If the leather comes from an animal that died from natural causes or a sick one that was put down there should be no problem. The ivory however should always be destroyed, this demand has to stop.

I believe it's still legal in most countries to own rugs from exotic animals, provided that they were shot & prepared for taxidermy before 1947 or when they come from a place like a zoo.

I bought a caribou skin from a place here in the Netherlands, they have a few interesting animals in their shop among them a polar bear, male lion and they had a baby tiger as well. All came from zoos here in Europe and died from natural causes. I wasn't allowed to take pictures unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

I love high quality leather goods, especially shoes and belts. Even if I was vegan, I would still want my museum calf shoes.

I've slaughtered and butchered my own beef, so I know where those beautiful ribeyes come from. You do gain some perspective from harvesting and processing an animal yourself.

The supermarket has separated people from their food source by displaying the meat in a sanitized way. While hunting is not for everyone, hunters do tend to appreciate the value of the meat more than the typical consumer.

You're right, it does give you a whole new perspective and also more respect for the animal.
Hunting used to be very important in my family, I went a few times with my grandfather and dad when I was little.

I fondy remember my grandfather having a tiled room next to the kitchen where he cleaned the deer, boar, ducks, etc. I often watched him do this and found it very intriguing.
His game dishes were delicious!

I'm definitely going to study/train for my hunting licence & step into my grandfather's footsteps once I'm finished with school.

[Old Expat Beast]

Killing animals for pleasure? I don't get it at all, even when it's dressed up as some kind of noble pursuit, or unspoken communion between man and beast.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Killing animals for pleasure? I don't get it at all, even when it's dressed up as some kind of noble pursuit, or unspoken communion between man and beast.

I wouldn't describe it as killing for pleasure at all.
Providing meat for your family. Understanding the animals that you kill and eat, know what they eat, where they live. Know the environment, plants, climate.

Walking to the grocery store and buy meat is noble? Nobody can tell you what life the animal had, what it liked to eat, where he liked to roam. Because it probably was a cornfed animal with a miserable life, which is how sad the industry is.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by SearChart

I wouldn't describe it as killing for pleasure at all.
Providing meat for your family. Understanding the animals that you kill and eat, know what they eat, where they live. Know the environment, plants, climate.

Walking to the grocery store and buy meat is noble? Nobody can tell you what life the animal had, what it liked to eat, where he liked to roam. Because it probably was a cornfed animal with a miserable life, which is how sad the industry is.

I didn't suggest it is.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Killing animals for pleasure? I don't get it at all, even when it's dressed up as some kind of noble pursuit, or unspoken communion between man and beast.

I respect your opinion Adam.

I've not seen any literature that captures the sensations and emotions of hunting well. It's a visceral activity, not an intellectual one, and there's no way to accurately share the experience with someone who has never done it.

It's at one time a highly social activity, and also one of complete solitude. At the moment of the harvest, one is alone in the connection with the game, and not far removed from his distant ancestors. While I am a muzzle loader guy (black powder, percussion cap, and ball), archers and modern weapon hunters have the same visceral experience in that moment.

[Star Ferry]

this thread reminds of me when Zuckerberg pledged to only eat animals that he had slaughtered himself. frankly, I've questioned his sanity since then

1) http://gawker.com/5844497/mark-zucke...larger-animals

2) https://www.buzzfeed.com/expresident...5y5#.klQWPGqxq

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

this thread reminds of me when Zuckerberg pledged to only eat animals that he had slaughtered himself. frankly, I've questioned his sanity since then

1) http://gawker.com/5844497/mark-zucke...larger-animals

2) https://www.buzzfeed.com/expresident...5y5#.klQWPGqxq

Abattoir's have been around for over a thousand years. People have long loathed to slaughter their own meals and paid people to do it for them.

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Abattoir's have been around for over a thousand years. People have long loathed to slaughter their own meals and paid people to do it for them.

but Palo Altoans need to be different... (paging Bristol/ref1655 -- does the SF Chronicle have anything to say on this?)

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

I didn't suggest it is.

I take it you're vegetarian/vegan? That is certainly a healthy lifestyle.
I'd like to hear more about your opinion

[gwalker]

I saw this thread turning into this when I posted days ago. I will be honest about 10 years ago I went on an African Safari. I'll leave it at that and I did post a few pics on here about 5-6 years ago and it started a sh$t storm. Threads like this never turn out well. If you like to hunt etc keep it to yourself because it's just going to cause people to get upset and cause issues for the mods. I mean look at the issues the owner of Jimmy Johns is going through right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BristolCavendish]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Killing animals for pleasure? I don't get it at all, even when it's dressed up as some kind of noble pursuit, or unspoken communion between man and beast.

Totally agree (although Ernest Hemingway sure made a big deal out of the 'passion' of stalking and killing animals in the wild). Here's one of his more 'twisted' quotes about hunting. This particular one involves hunting people:
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/q...emi395443.html

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

I've not seen any literature that captures the sensations and emotions of hunting well. It's a visceral activity, not an intellectual one, and there's no way to accurately share the experience with someone who has never done it.

Hemingway tried to convey it in Hemingway on Hunting.

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

but Palo Altoans need to be different... (paging Bristol/ref1655 -- does the SF Chronicle have anything to say on this?)

You and your BC/ref1655 conspiracy theories. BTW, it's 'Palo Altan' and Marin County (where I reside) is approximately 40 miles north across the GG Bridge. There are some similar and shared thought processes amongst the two regions but we do not have any major colleges/universities (i.e. Stanford University, Santa Clara University, San Jose State University et al) in the immediate area along with the high-tech gridlock of the SF mid/south peninsula. It's far more 'laid-back' out here.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by BristolCavendish

Totally agree (although Ernest Hemingway sure made a big deal out of the 'passion' of stalking and killing animals in the wild). Here's one of his more 'twisted' quotes about hunting. This particular one involves hunting people:
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/q...emi395443.html

Hemingway tried to convey it in Hemingway on Hunting.

Hemingway was a bit of an adrenaline junkie with a measure of PTSD thrown in as spice. Times were different back then, and so were the masses. A large part of his audience were veterans, outdoorsmen, and folks who had some common life experience that he could draw on in his stories.

My grandfather loved Hemingway. He was a city guy but was exposed a lot of life experiences that he could vaguely relate to Hemingway's stories. Throw in a little adventure and he was hooked.

Relating hunting to someone who's never done it is a lot like an accountant explaining why tax law is so exciting. If you can't relate your needs and experience to it, it's just mumbo jumbo, no matter how well he explains his passion for doing it.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Relating hunting to someone who's never done it is a lot like an accountant explaining why tax law is so exciting. If you can't relate your needs and experience to it, it's just mumbo jumbo, no matter how well he explains his passion for doing it.

Steven Rinella from the show MeatEater is a down to earth guy who does describe it quite well. Sure feelings are hard to describe, but this show captures the essence of hunting quite well.
Many episodes of him just walking and talking and not a shot taken, it definitely isn't always about a succesful hunt.

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by BristolCavendish

You and your BC/ref1655 conspiracy theories. BTW, it's 'Palo Altan' and Marin County (where I reside) is approximately 40 miles north across the GG Bridge. There are some similar and shared thought processes amongst the two regions but we do not have any major colleges/universities (i.e. Stanford University, Santa Clara University, San Jose State University et al) in the immediate area along with the high-tech gridlock of the SF mid/south peninsula. It's far more 'laid-back' out here.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by SearChart

I wouldn't describe it as killing for pleasure at all.
Providing meat for your family. Understanding the animals that you kill and eat, know what they eat, where they live. Know the environment, plants, climate.

Walking to the grocery store and buy meat is noble? Nobody can tell you what life the animal had, what it liked to eat, where he liked to roam. Because it probably was a cornfed animal with a miserable life, which is how sad the industry is.

I don't think anyone could argue against hunting for food. At least the animal lived a life up until the moment it's killed.

What can be argued is the "sport" of big game hunting. How anyone could justify killing a lion, by leading it out of a protected area for example, is beyond me.