The converter conundrum

[Juantxo]

Well, I'm going out on a limb now. The converter. The cartouche. The piston filler.

For many years I have seen fountain pens under the light of their filling mechanism. My all-encompassing premise has been that converter filled pens are inferior. Period. Thus, I have only been interested in piston filled pens and capillary fillers like the Parker 61. Thus my preference for the 61 and Pelikans. I admit to having looked down on the converter system as a cheap cop-out.

There, I said it. Regarding the 61, they are old pens, beautiful pens, and in not all cases the capillary filler works perfectly, so those I mostly keep safely away and every once in a while take them out to admire their beauty. But Pelikans from the 600 and upper ranges rock my world, as well as the Toledos and tiny 1931s.

As of lately, and under the inebriating influence of Jim, Richard, et el., I have been overlooking the converter "flaw". For instance, I have always loved lacquer ST Duponts... except for the converter. Now I like the ST Dupont better. I even went to the extent of buying a rather expensive Nakata... with converter. And I've become obsessed with the Waterman Le Man 100... with converter.

Still, though, each time I have to fill up a converter I can't help thinking that someone is making fun of me, deriding me, for handling such lowly plastic gimmick. And when I go to a Pelikan, I'm overwhelmed with deep respect. By the way, I abstain from using a cartouche... oh, so grammar school.

Of course, please add a single grain of salt to all of the above, and just fire away. I'll love you all the same.

[jar]

My favorite filling system is the cartridge. It's simply hard to fault a system where you can carry a months supply of ink securely in your pocket.

[Juantxo]

Originally Posted by jar

My favorite filling system is the cartridge. It's simply hard to fault a system where you can carry a months supply of ink securely in your pocket.

Oh, no...!!! But the craftsmanship, the mechanics, the design, the tolerances and materials, the work put into a piston system inside the barrel...!!! A cartridge inside a vintage Toledo is like placing a Chinese quartz movement inside a Patek 5004...!!!

[jar]

Originally Posted by Juantxo

Oh, no...!!! But the craftsmanship, the mechanics, the design, the tolerances and materials, the work put into a piston system inside the barrel...!!! A cartridge inside a vintage Toledo is like placing a Chinese quartz movement inside a Patek 5004...!!!

One reason I sold most of my Pelikans.

[Juantxo]

Originally Posted by jar

One reason I sold most of my Pelikans.

That's strange, Jim. I've heard you say that before. Most of my pens are Pelikans, some over 20 years old which I bought new, and I have never had the most minimal issue with a Pelikan. And the nibs are great. They are easy to change, to find, to customize, and they are pretty. The piston filling system, flawless in every case.

I've had problems galore with all sorts of Montblanc, I have a Sailor that could never shoot straight, an Omas that looks glued together by a kindergarten ill-behaved boy, etc. But never an issue with a Pelikan. Of course, I have bought all my Pelikan pens new.

[jar]

Originally Posted by Juantxo

That's strange, Jim. I've heard you say that before. Most of my pens are Pelikans, some over 20 years old which I bought new, and I have never had the most minimal issue with a Pelikan. And the nibs are great. They are easy to change, to find, to customize, and they are pretty. The piston filling system, flawless in every case.

I've had problems galore with all sorts of Montblanc, I have a Sailor that could never shoot straight, an Omas that looks glued together by a kindergarten ill-behaved boy, etc. But never an issue with a Pelikan. Of course, I have bought all my Pelikan pens new.

I never had a problem with any of my Pelikans. I simply found them uninteresting and no where near as much fun as many of my other pens. I still have three left I think but the others are now happy at new homes where they actually get to go out and play, something that just never happened here.

[Juantxo]

Originally Posted by jar

I never had a problem with any of my Pelikans. I simply found them uninteresting and no where near as much fun as many of my other pens. I still have three left I think but the others are now happy at new homes where they actually get to go out and play, something that just never happened here.

Hummm... Maybe you never fed them beer...!!!

[Bisquitlips]

Originally Posted by jar

I never had a problem with any of my Pelikans. I simply found them uninteresting and no where near as much fun as many of my other pens. I still have three left I think but the others are now happy at new homes where they actually get to go out and play, something that just never happened here.

Jim... Pels "uninteresting"?????

Then you have not spent enough money on one!

You could purchase this one new, admire it for a period of time therefore enhancing your appreciation of Pelikans and the depreciation of your savings, and then sell it to me used!



But of course.... you knew that!

[jar]

Or just go straight to this:

[Formulansx]

I like converters. Super easy to clean and if it all goes wrong, toss it and get another converter that being said, I do have a good amount of piston fillers. Got to have both in a self respecting collection!! Don't toss those Nakaya fishy converters though!!

[Juantxo]

Originally Posted by Formulansx

I like converters. Super easy to clean and if it all goes wrong, toss it and get another converter that being said, I do have a good amount of piston fillers. Got to have both in a self respecting collection!! Don't toss those Nakaya fishy converters though!!

Those painted Nakaya converters do rock...!!

[Bisquitlips]

Originally Posted by jar

Or just go straight to this:

What is that?

[jar]

Originally Posted by Bisquitlips

What is that?

A Platinum Izumo "Sea of Clouds" Taisha Yagumonuri.

[Bisquitlips]

Originally Posted by jar

A Platinum Izumo "Sea of Clouds" Taisha Yagumonuri.

But... you said Pelikans! ........ .... .. ..

[jar]

Originally Posted by Bisquitlips

But... you said Pelikans! ........ .... .. ..

You said Pelikans, I sold Pelikans. I'm down to just three Pelikans left.

[Bisquitlips]

Originally Posted by jar

You said Pelikans, I sold Pelikans. I'm down to just three Pelikans left.

I stand corrected!

[cajunron]

Originally Posted by Juantxo

Oh, no...!!! But the craftsmanship, the mechanics, the design, the tolerances and materials, the work put into a piston system inside the barrel...!!! A cartridge inside a vintage Toledo is like placing a Chinese quartz movement inside a Patek 5004...!!!

I would have to agree with this. Although I do not have as much experience with fountain pens as you gentlemen, my only pen is an entry level Pelikan M150. Just today I was looking to upgrade and purchase something a little nicer, but couldn't get past the cartridge filling system on some of the higher quality offerings. I would like to try a MB, but I'm afraid to invest several hundred dollars on a fountain pen I do not like. Any suggestions? Should I suck it up and give it a shot or stick with what I know?

[cajunron]

Originally Posted by jar

A Platinum Izumo "Sea of Clouds" Taisha Yagumonuri.

Beautiful.

[Juantxo]

Originally Posted by cajunron

I would have to agree with this. Although I do not have as much experience with fountain pens as you gentlemen, my only pen is an entry level Pelikan M150. Just today I was looking to upgrade and purchase something a little nicer, but couldn't get past the cartridge filling system on some of the higher quality offerings. I would like to try a MB, but I'm afraid to invest several hundred dollars on a fountain pen I do not like. Any suggestions? Should I suck it up and give it a shot or stick with what I know?

Stick with Pelikan, they won't disappoint you. Look at the 600s. 400s are great too. If you are ready for the big leagues look into a Toledo.

Pelikan nibs are easy to find and easy to change. They are pens that will last forever. I love Pelikan Souverain pens better than any others. In my own biased opinion, I think they are far superior to Montblanc pens in every respect.

Check nibs.com, Fountain Pen Hospital, etc. And good luck in your search.

[cajunron]

Originally Posted by Juantxo

Stick with Pelikan, they won't disappoint you. Look at the 600s. 400s are great too. If you are ready for the big leagues look into a Toledo.

Pelikan nibs are easy to find and easy to change. They are pens that will last forever. I love Pelikan Souverain pens better than any others. In my own biased opinion, I think they are far superior to Montblanc pens in every respect.

Check nibs.com, Fountain Pen Hospital, etc. And good luck in your search.

Thanks!

[Rafael M]

Juan, To speak about converters; I think they completely have a place. Caran d'Ache, Graf, Sailor, Yard-o-Led, among other makers use converters.
I think a benefit of converters is that they hold less. I don't write that much but I like to use a fountain pen when I do. A converter insures I am always using fresh ink. A piston full of ink would take me at least a month to run through ... if not more.
Also, I dislike the washable inks, and like the "bullet proof" inks, for permanence. I lost valuable tax records because I kept the records with non permanent ink. The books received a water dunking. Gone were the records.
so
a pen, like my new Caran d'Ache Varius Ivanhoe Black ... with a converter ....is perfect for the poisonous ...and Very black .... bulletproof ..Noodler's Old Manhattan Black. An ink I would NEVER put in a vintage piston Pelikan or Omas because there is the strong possibility it stains the ink tank window. Let it stain the converter window!
So those are my reasons in praise of converters.
Rafael

[Juantxo]

Originally Posted by Rafael M

Juan, To speak about converters; I think they completely have a place. Caran d'Ache, Graf, Sailor, Yard-o-Led, among other makers use converters.
I think a benefit of converters is that they hold less. I don't write that much but I like to use a fountain pen when I do. A converter insures I am always using fresh ink. A piston full of ink would take me at least a month to run through ... if not more.
Also, I dislike the washable inks, and like the "bullet proof" inks, for permanence. I lost valuable tax records because I kept the records with non permanent ink. The books received a water dunking. Gone were the records.
so
a pen, like my new Caran d'Ache Varius Ivanhoe Black ... with a converter ....is perfect for the poisonous ...and Very black .... bulletproof ..Noodler's Old Manhattan Black. An ink I would NEVER put in a vintage piston Pelikan or Omas because there is the strong possibility it stains the ink tank window. Let it stain the converter window!
So those are my reasons in praise of converters.
Rafael

I don't mean to be argumentative, and much less with you, Rafa. That said, a G-Shock will have complications and uses than you might only find in a million dollars mechanical watch, if then The converter, and the cartridge, offers certain advantages to the user, and significant economic advantages to the manufacturer.

I see it somewhat as a mechanical vs battery type of argument. Or like plastic disposable parts inside a Patek Philippe (Nakaya). Of course, to each his own.

[Rafael M]

I thought about that.
The "plastic aspects" of converters, etc.........
I am trying to see past the obvious (sniff) aspects.

So then if I would agree, but I don't; ....that makers of pens I mentioned, and there are many more.
They have have opted to adopt a lesser quality level than makers who have constructed pens with piston mechanisms?
Converter pen manufacturers are on a lower level?
Like Breitling is "lower" (sniff) to Patek Phillippe ?

In short
Piston fillers are higher class than converter fillers?
Is that what you are saying ?
rm

I think converters have their place. I cited my reasons, based on practicality ........
and
Sailor pens, Yard -o- Lead etc are way way above G-Shock

[Rafael M]

Apologies if I was a bit accellerated, above.

[jar]

Originally Posted by Juantxo

I don't mean to be argumentative, and much less with you, Rafa. That said, a G-Shock will have complications and uses than you might only find in a million dollars mechanical watch, if then The converter, and the cartridge, offers certain advantages to the user, and significant economic advantages to the manufacturer.

I see it somewhat as a mechanical vs battery type of argument. Or like plastic disposable parts inside a Patek Philippe (Nakaya). Of course, to each his own.

But why is a converter cheaper to make than a piston filler? Why is a piston filler more difficult to make than a converter filler.

Pistons are not really some complicated technological feat. Pistons have been around for thousands of years.

The issues faced in creating a piston type converter and piston fountain pen are exactly the same. There needs to be a movable seal with an opening below the seal and an opening above the seal.

Second, there is the myth that piston filled pens hold more ink and bigger piston fillers hold more than smaller piston fillers. 100% myth. The modern 146 and 149 use exactly the same piston mechanism and hold the same amount of ink and the Montblanc 147 with it's two international standard cartridges hold more ink than either the 146 or 149.

Now the tiny by comparison Montblanc 234½ from the 40s and 50s did hold more ink than any modern Montblanc but that was because Montblanc did use a different piston system that allowed greater seal travel.

[Juantxo]

Ok, guys, I agree that we disagree. I just find a cheap converter inside a fine pen a cop-out. By the way, "class" has nothing to do with it. This is not about Marxism.


PS- "But why is a converter cheaper to make than a piston filler? Why is a piston filler more difficult to make than a converter filler." The response is self-evident. In terms of production, to integrate a functional piston filling system in a pen is more difficult, labor intensive, and requires more parts that just turning a barrel and adding a converter made in China by the millions at a minimal cost.

[jar]

Originally Posted by Juantxo

Ok, guys, I agree that we disagree. I just find a cheap converter inside a fine pen a cop-out. By the way, "class" has nothing to do with it. This is not about Marxism.


PS- "But why is a converter cheaper to make than a piston filler? Why is a piston filler more difficult to make than a converter filler." The response is self-evident. In terms of production, to integrate a functional piston filling system in a pen is more difficult, labor intensive, and requires more parts that just turning a barrel and adding a converter made in China by the millions at a minimal cost.

Why is it more difficult?

Sorry but today many fake pens have functioning piston fillers including Montblanc knockoffs currently being made in Korea. China also makes fully functioning piston filled fakes.

In addition, many converters used in the better pens are made in Germany by companies like Schmidt.

[Formulansx]

Originally Posted by Juantxo

Ok, guys, I agree that we disagree. I just find a cheap converter inside a fine pen a cop-out. By the way, "class" has nothing to do with it. This is not about Marxism.


PS- "But why is a converter cheaper to make than a piston filler? Why is a piston filler more difficult to make than a converter filler." The response is self-evident. In terms of production, to integrate a functional piston filling system in a pen is more difficult, labor intensive, and requires more parts that just turning a barrel and adding a converter made in China by the millions at a minimal cost.

I get that. You feel like you're getting more for your money in a piston filler pen. Makes sense. I can also say though that a converter makes things easy. No rebuilding vac fillers. No making sure the amount of silicone in the piston filler is exactly right so you don't puke ink on your pants tightening the cap. If it all goes completely wrong you can toss the converter. There's also oddball designs that don't lend themselves to a piston filler like my Visconti Pininfarina. Sometimes there's no other option than to go converter........but I do feel like I'm getting more for my $$ with a piston filler

[Juantxo]

Originally Posted by Formulansx

I get that. You feel like you're getting more for your money in a piston filler pen. Makes sense. I can also say though that a converter makes things easy. No rebuilding vac fillers. No making sure the amount of silicone in the piston filler is exactly right so you don't puke ink on your pants tightening the cap. If it all goes completely wrong you can toss the converter. There's also oddball designs that don't lend themselves to a piston filler like my Visconti Pininfarina. Sometimes there's no other option than to go converter........but I do feel like I'm getting more for my $$ with a piston filler

Elementary, Watson.

[blue16613]

Originally Posted by jar

Why is it more difficult?

Sorry but today many fake pens have functioning piston fillers including Montblanc knockoffs currently being made in Korea. China also makes fully functioning piston filled fakes.

In addition, many converters used in the better pens are made in Germany by companies like Schmidt.

I have found that nowadays many of the so called piston fillers are actually "captured converters." CS got into putting them into some of their high end pens (example, Nelson II) before they tanked and Marlen is utilizing them now. Ask before you buy if any doubt. Stay far, far away from them. They are awful and can be impossible and/or expensive to repair / replace.