The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX


Go Back   Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum > Rolex & Tudor Watch Topics > Vintage Rolex Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 21 February 2015, 07:20 PM   #31
The_Walrus
"TRF" Member
 
The_Walrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Real Name: George
Location: Sydney
Watch: 5513, 7928
Posts: 1,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunetteVerde View Post
LMAO! You are hilarious and satirical dude - my hats off to you :)


♛lunetteverde@Instagram♛
Hysterical Mon- took me a second or two.
I remember his rant on here a few months ago.
Won't be long before someone alerts him of this thread as well and he spits the dummy again.
The_Walrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 February 2015, 07:41 PM   #32
bondtoys
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Germany
Watch: 16750
Posts: 2,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Walrus View Post
I remember his rant on here a few months ago.
can you please point me to the mentioned thread - if necessary via pm.
Thanks!

I'm unable to dig that particular thread out but a resident forum member brought his authenticity into question and 'No Buy' reacted with a whole new username and account .

Last edited by The_Walrus; 22 February 2015 at 09:11 AM..
bondtoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 February 2015, 07:50 PM   #33
Fellini
"TRF" Member
 
Fellini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Real Name: Ian
Location: SW10 + Berlin
Watch: 1680-1655-16570
Posts: 103
Part of the real problem here might be the listing of this particular seller in the "totally trustworthy" section of this venerable forum, a contradictio that would call for a more substantiated response than a simple "just don't buy there". But that's only my two pence of thought.
Fellini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 February 2015, 07:53 PM   #34
mike
"TRF" Member
 
mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 22,715
Pretty well known in the community. Pricing has always seemed a bit strong to me as well.

As always--Buy the seller.
mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 February 2015, 09:12 PM   #35
bondtoys
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Germany
Watch: 16750
Posts: 2,167
we all know what visually magic is done with worn-out bracelets by Michael Young.

I have no doubt that similar results can be achieved with damaged and aged dials and cases - but it should be disclosed imo.

The fact that it isn't and that the seller is still allowed to sell here worries me a bit.
bondtoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 February 2015, 11:28 PM   #36
watches4me
"TRF" Member
 
watches4me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Real Name: Sergio Nuncio
Location: Houston
Watch: Rolex GMT
Posts: 232
This is the insane part, if you follow vintage dealers on Instagram, all there dials seem to be to darn perfect, some watch cases look so perfect as if from the rolex factory, "new old stock" .... I've been trading watches my whole adult life and have only seen a handful of specimen watches (as new).. I would hate to make a purchase only to find that the dial & case had been altered !!!
watches4me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 February 2015, 11:58 PM   #37
willang
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 489
Am currently considering one from a seller and would appreciate PM to confirm if it's him and stay away. Thanks.
willang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 12:44 AM   #38
Poohsan
"TRF" Member
 
Poohsan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Real Name: Arron
Location: phoenix, AZ
Watch: GMT 1675
Posts: 767
I live in Hong Kong and buy watches here. There are a lot of shops and individuals altering watches and selling them with out disclosure all over the city.

I would appreciate a PM about this seller.

Regards,
__________________
1680, 1675, 116610LN, GMT Master II, Explorer II, Tudor Big Block 79170
Poohsan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 01:20 AM   #39
polarinda
"TRF" Member
 
polarinda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Real Name: Trav
Location: singapore
Watch: it
Posts: 2,203
A 16610 rarely has hands that match the patina on the markers or pearl.
He used to have one with all of that bearing the same shade and intensity. Thats what stopped me from buying.
Have pmed a few here asking the source. Please deal at your own discretion.
polarinda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 07:31 AM   #40
descartes
"TRF" Member
 
descartes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North Shore
Posts: 965
I have wondered about this seller too because of his seemingly unending, large supply of watches (even relatively rare ones) with perfect patina and chamfers. BUT that said, he is one of only a few "green star" sellers on the recommended sellers "sticky" and there are several people who have reported good purchases.

It would be nice if someone with 1st hand knowledge (either way) offered some insight.
__________________
I have a weakness for Travel Watches, Platinum, Vintage Rolex and 1960s Divers
descartes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 08:19 AM   #41
MitchSteel
"TRF" Member
 
MitchSteel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Real Name: MDangerSteel
Location: Canada
Watch: Vintage Rolex
Posts: 2,307
Mark my words fellas......the next few watches he'll be selling, the patina will be a bit lighter......then it'll go back to dark or orange looking.
This has been discussed here and other forums extensively, and that particular seller has been banned from The Other Forum......jusssayin'
__________________
Card Carrying Member of the Global Association of Retro-Grouch-Curmudgeons

Probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival---Capt. Rage

Don't believe anything in aviation, 'till V1---Mitch Danger Steel
MitchSteel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 09:11 AM   #42
onefastman
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: STL
Posts: 207
I've always wondered that.

I was close to messaging about a 14270 blackout but passed because it seemed so implausible that he had such a large number of rare watches in perfect condition.

If it looks too good to be true it usually is.

Especially if he will only take bank wire and is from another country..
onefastman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 10:21 AM   #43
swish77
2019 Pledge Member
 
swish77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Real Name: Aaron
Location: NYC
Watch: ing the time!
Posts: 4,009
Well, I've been following this seller for years and I couldn't find much, if anything, to substantiate the criticism. There are a lot of rumors for sure, but I couldn't find anyone who publicly (online) confirmed a fake/altered dial or fake/altered case. Sure, some of his watches look too good to be true, but then there are a lot of others that look just fine. There was a forum member who posted just a couple of weeks ago here about how happy they were with a vintage Sub they bought from this seller. I don't have a dog in this debate, but I know we need to be careful criticizing without real proof.
swish77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 12:06 PM   #44
stmoore
2019 Pledge Member
 
stmoore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: US
Watch: 1665redguy
Posts: 1,017
Agreed. Wise words.

I have reached out to several people on said topic. All have been very happy with said seller.

I have no direct buying experience, however.



Quote:
Originally Posted by swish77 View Post
Well, I've been following this seller for years and I couldn't find much, if anything, to substantiate the criticism. There are a lot of rumors for sure, but I couldn't find anyone who publicly (online) confirmed a fake/altered dial or fake/altered case. Sure, some of his watches look too good to be true, but then there are a lot of others that look just fine. There was a forum member who posted just a couple of weeks ago here about how happy they were with a vintage Sub they bought from this seller. I don't have a dog in this debate, but I know we need to be careful criticizing without real proof.
__________________
moorewatches on Instagram
stmoore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 01:55 PM   #45
PoderEsBueno
"TRF" Member
 
PoderEsBueno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Real Name: peb
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 3,145
Quote:
Originally Posted by stmoore View Post
agreed. Wise words.

I have reached out to several people on said topic. All have been very happy with said seller.

I have no direct buying experience, however.
x 2
__________________
Instagram• ~ poderes.bueno
PoderEsBueno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 02:04 PM   #46
Dr DRW
"TRF" Member
 
Dr DRW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Real Name: David
Location: Dallas, Tx
Watch: Divers
Posts: 322
Now Boys I've Never Been this curious in Times past .
__________________
Rolex 1665, 1675, 1680, 5513, 16600, 16610, 14060

Dr DRW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 02:30 PM   #47
QueueCumber
2019 HARRODS BB Pledge Member
 
QueueCumber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Real Name: Q
Location: The Q Continuum
Watch: ST:TNG
Posts: 8,429
I've never bought a piece sold by the seller in question, so I really can't share my own experiences with his pieces, but aren't many of the things being stated in this thread considered slander and libel?

Is there any proof of the things being stated?

I think "buy the seller" is a potentially dangerous philosophy if followed blindly. Even the BEST sellers make mistakes, so one should ALWAYS have a few independent non-dealer experts, who are not affiliated with the dealer at all, look at the pieces they are contemplating as a purchase. This avoids conflicts of interest with other dealer experts, who may disparage a piece inappropriately because they are looking to sell you a similar piece or don't like the competition, and it also avoids the problem of being given advice by people that may want to stick up for dealers or friends in their cohort even when a piece is less than adequate.
__________________
Instagram: _queuecumber_
QueueCumber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 02:45 PM   #48
polarinda
"TRF" Member
 
polarinda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Real Name: Trav
Location: singapore
Watch: it
Posts: 2,203
Im not slandering. I raised a question about the near perfect patina in every vintage watch i see from him...and asked how to identify naturally occuring patina from sped up ones.
But i was told to not buy if not comfortable...which i agree...and will do so.

You are all free to make your own judgement...and for the record..i have not openly said without reservations that they are fake or otherwise...just doubts which hopefully someone in the know will clear up.
I hope it's not against the law to doubt someone in a watch forum.
polarinda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 02:49 PM   #49
LunetteVerde
"TRF" Member
 
LunetteVerde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Real Name: lunetteverde
Location: Asia
Watch: me @ Instagram
Posts: 823
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Walrus View Post
Hysterical Mon- took me a second or two.

I remember his rant on here a few months ago.

Won't be long before someone alerts him of this thread as well and he spits the dummy again.

For anyone who has been around enough with fellow collectors, vintage pieces & forums - you find the answer if you look around a bit more ;-)

G'day mate 🍺


♛lunetteverde@Instagram♛
LunetteVerde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 03:00 PM   #50
LunetteVerde
"TRF" Member
 
LunetteVerde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Real Name: lunetteverde
Location: Asia
Watch: me @ Instagram
Posts: 823
when patina is too good to be true

Yup, the maxim of buying the seller is outdated as i've been long enough to see a few "loved" sellers gone rogue :-( To err is human ?

I've no dog in this ring but it pays to do your own homework & put less weightage on buying blindly just bcoz its the seller IMO

"caveat emptor applies!"


Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post
I've never bought a piece sold by the seller in question, so I really can't share my own experiences with his pieces, but aren't many of the things being stated in this thread considered slander and libel?

Is there any proof of the things being stated?

I think "buy the seller" is a potentially dangerous philosophy if followed blindly. Even the BEST sellers make mistakes, so one should ALWAYS have a few independent non-dealer experts, who are not affiliated with the dealer at all, look at the pieces they are contemplating as a purchase. This avoids conflicts of interest with other dealer experts, who may disparage a piece inappropriately because they are looking to sell you a similar piece or don't like the competition, and it also avoids the problem of being given advice by people that may want to stick up for dealers or friends in their cohort even when a piece is less than adequate.




♛lunetteverde@Instagram♛
LunetteVerde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 06:30 PM   #51
zederhoff
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 65
Very interesting thread.
My local Rolex guy - whom is also a vintage lover told me about a well known issue with what he called "Hong Kong Vintage productions".

He told me that in some cases new dial's etc will be "treated" with e.g. Cigar smoke to obtain the desired patina.

I have no idea whom does this. But I will newer buy a vintage without posting pictures in this great forum for expert opinion.

Can someone tell me why some watches get a yellow patina and some orange. Is it down to the producer of the dial?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
zederhoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 06:37 PM   #52
Vincent65
"TRF" Member
 
Vincent65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Switzerland
Watch: SUB/SD/GMT
Posts: 14,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by zederhoff View Post

Can someone tell me why some watches get a yellow patina and some orange. Is it down to the producer of the dial?


I'd think it's down to a large number of variables, such as dial maker, conditions and varying mixtures and materials used at the time (even within one producer) and then decades of who-knows-what in terms of wear/storage/conditions etc.

It's a bit like asking why have your 20 yr-old jeans faded differently from mine...
Vincent65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 06:41 PM   #53
zederhoff
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 65
Yes - I understand. I didn't mean to suggest there is only one "correct" patina. I get that there is a broad range of patina - making the vintage world so interesting. I was just trying to get an understanding since I am new in this.

Thanks,
Klaus


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
zederhoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 07:09 PM   #54
Vincent65
"TRF" Member
 
Vincent65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Switzerland
Watch: SUB/SD/GMT
Posts: 14,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by zederhoff View Post
Yes - I understand. I didn't mean to suggest there is only one "correct" patina. I get that there is a broad range of patina - making the vintage world so interesting. I was just trying to get an understanding since I am new in this.

Thanks,
Klaus


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
we all are!
Vincent65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 09:11 PM   #55
minimerc
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: spore
Posts: 39
he's quite profesional

Quote:
Originally Posted by swish77 View Post
Well, I've been following this seller for years and I couldn't find much, if anything, to substantiate the criticism. There are a lot of rumors for sure, but I couldn't find anyone who publicly (online) confirmed a fake/altered dial or fake/altered case. Sure, some of his watches look too good to be true, but then there are a lot of others that look just fine. There was a forum member who posted just a couple of weeks ago here about how happy they were with a vintage Sub they bought from this seller. I don't have a dog in this debate, but I know we need to be careful criticizing without real proof.
I have dealt with him before (a simple DJ and not those expensive sports w orangy markers). I must say he's professional and handled the issues I raised about the watch quite professionally as a commercial dealer. Can't comment on those dials with HK lumes though.
minimerc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 09:49 PM   #56
Tudor Fan
"TRF" Member
 
Tudor Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New York City
Posts: 974
I think it may have to do with a.) the climate. The particular patina due to climate with watches from Hong Kong has been discussed and b.) the way he photographs.

I did buy my '76 Snowflake from him that looked patina wise like a lot of others on his site. In the flesh it has very nice patina but not as strong as in the shots from him. The markers still glow when charged (if only for a fe seconds). And the watch has been overhauled by a local expert who attested its 100% authenticity.
Tudor Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 10:41 PM   #57
CharlieMae
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 171
Let me elaborate...

No one is saying the seller:

Doesnt sell genuine watches
Isn't honest or professional
Uses any parts that arent 100% authentic


What has to be considered is that the percentage of watches with cases that are unpolished and with perfect chamfers is extremely small. I would say that the numbers are less than 1% (my estimate). As time goes on and these watches get older and older, the numbers will continue to decrease.

He does not state that the cases are refinished, which in my opinion they are 100%. If he disclosed this then we wouldnt be having a discussion about the cases. The dials are another matter..

DIALS: I would say there are hundreds of shades of patina from bright white all the way to dark brown. To see the same color lume on the majority of watches from the same seller is unusual. This has been going on for YEARS and on literally hundreds of watches.

This is not possible. There isnt magic air, humidity or sunlight in Hong Kong that changes lume to mystical orange unlike anywhere else on earth. May I also note that all of the hands also magically match which is also impossible on every watch.

I am not here to tell anyone to buy or not to buy from this seller. All I am here to disclose are the facts surrounding his watches and the odds of an orange plot dial, matching hands, on an unpolished case with perfect chamfers is infinitely small. To be able to source hundreds of them...well you come to your own conclusions.
CharlieMae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 10:56 PM   #58
linesiders
2019 SKY-DWELLER Pledge Member
 
linesiders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: RedSox Nation
Watch: U Talkn Bout Wilis
Posts: 4,342
Some of the patina consistency can be chalked up to how the photos are taken, and some can be chalked up to location - I think it is is more than that but I am not expert enough nor have had one in my hand to tell.

He who shall not be named is also not selling on VRF, arguably the best market for his wares.
__________________
I'm a sailor peg. And I've lost my leg. Climbing up the top sails. I've lost my leg!
linesiders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 11:27 PM   #59
Vincent65
"TRF" Member
 
Vincent65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Switzerland
Watch: SUB/SD/GMT
Posts: 14,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieMae View Post
Let me elaborate...

No one is saying the seller:

Doesnt sell genuine watches
Isn't honest or professional
Uses any parts that arent 100% authentic


What has to be considered is that the percentage of watches with cases that are unpolished and with perfect chamfers is extremely small. I would say that the numbers are less than 1% (my estimate). As time goes on and these watches get older and older, the numbers will continue to decrease.

He does not state that the cases are refinished, which in my opinion they are 100%. If he disclosed this then we wouldnt be having a discussion about the cases. The dials are another matter..

DIALS: I would say there are hundreds of shades of patina from bright white all the way to dark brown. To see the same color lume on the majority of watches from the same seller is unusual. This has been going on for YEARS and on literally hundreds of watches.

This is not possible. There isnt magic air, humidity or sunlight in Hong Kong that changes lume to mystical orange unlike anywhere else on earth. May I also note that all of the hands also magically match which is also impossible on every watch.

I am not here to tell anyone to buy or not to buy from this seller. All I am here to disclose are the facts surrounding his watches and the odds of an orange plot dial, matching hands, on an unpolished case with perfect chamfers is infinitely small. To be able to source hundreds of them...well you come to your own conclusions.
Quite a few absolute statements of 'fact' here. You seem pretty sure of yourself! They don't all look the same shade of orange to me (or even a majority), and not all of them 'magically match' either, but maybe your monitor/vision is very different from mine. Neither are ALL of them described as unpolished, from what I'm reading, and have read, for years...

I think a lot of it is simply down to presentation: lighting and photographic/finishing/filtration techniques. Then, of course a uniformity of various components will arise, even if [perhaps] slightly exaggerated.

Vincent65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 February 2015, 11:33 PM   #60
subtona
2019 SKY-DWELLER Pledge Member
 
subtona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Real Name: gus
Location: East Coast
Watch: APK & sometimes Y
Posts: 22,156
Icon14

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieMae View Post
Let me elaborate...

No one is saying the seller:

Doesnt sell genuine watches
Isn't honest or professional
Uses any parts that arent 100% authentic


What has to be considered is that the percentage of watches with cases that are unpolished and with perfect chamfers is extremely small. I would say that the numbers are less than 1% (my estimate). As time goes on and these watches get older and older, the numbers will continue to decrease.

He does not state that the cases are refinished, which in my opinion they are 100%. If he disclosed this then we wouldnt be having a discussion about the cases. The dials are another matter..

DIALS: I would say there are hundreds of shades of patina from bright white all the way to dark brown. To see the same color lume on the majority of watches from the same seller is unusual. This has been going on for YEARS and on literally hundreds of watches.

This is not possible. There isnt magic air, humidity or sunlight in Hong Kong that changes lume to mystical orange unlike anywhere else on earth. May I also note that all of the hands also magically match which is also impossible on every watch.

I am not here to tell anyone to buy or not to buy from this seller. All I am here to disclose are the facts surrounding his watches and the odds of an orange plot dial, matching hands, on an unpolished case with perfect chamfers is infinitely small. To be able to source hundreds of them...well you come to your own conclusions.
That is well said.
__________________
subtona is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Banners Of The Month

Banners Of The Month


*Banner Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2019, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.