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Old 24 February 2015, 12:30 PM   #91
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Mate, think you've not been following the thread, he's been removed long ago!
It's there right now, in your third post. He shouldn't be listed in any post there....period. There are 16 pages in that thread. So a new member here reads a few posts and sees him, or someone else that isn't in the final tally what are they to think. If you are the keeper of the list, it would be appropriate to update the list especially having Mulholland's name removed from the list, no matter how many times it is there.
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Old 24 February 2015, 12:38 PM   #92
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It's there right now, in your third post. He shouldn't be listed in any post there....period.
???
That's just the way a thread list is structured, I thought it was quite intuitive unless one missed the logic in it's flow which started with 3 sellers in the first post and then grew with some sellers taken off along the way. The last update of the list has the latest list update just like in all threads we have on internet forums where the later posts are more relevant. The rest is for history purposes, since otherwise it will make the subsequent posts running over some 17 pages on that thread meaningless. Why do we need thread history? Well, that's to keep the thread transparent and meaningful.

Also edits can only be done in the first few hours except by moderators. After Steve was taken off, the mods made a comment on him in the first post, they can't possibly go into every mention of him and delete it and then we will loose thread history, so please look at the latest update only.

The last update of the list is here, if you page back you will see when Steve was removed.
http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=180461&page=16
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Old 24 February 2015, 02:11 PM   #93
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NB isnt the only seller with "Magically Matching hands" on every watch. Thats for sure.
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Old 24 February 2015, 02:41 PM   #94
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NB isnt the only seller with "Magically Matching hands" on every watch. Thats for sure.
Your so RIGHT Kev
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Old 24 February 2015, 08:59 PM   #95
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Update: Wrote to nbtimes asking him for an explanation about the comments here and mentioning what the main concerns here were and told him to confirm that the following is not the case with his watches based on the gist of some of the posts here


a. dials have not been touched, retouched or otherwise optimized
b. cases have not been built up by laser-welding or similar techniques, so they are all original


His reply was and I quote below from his personal message, which he consented to me posting it here after I asked him if he's fine for me to publicly post it in this thread and stand by his watches publicly. So you'll be the judges!

Quote:
Posted by nbTimes

a. ALL dials I sell have NEVER been touched, nor retouched nor optimized
b. ALL the cases have NEVER been built up by laser-welding or similar techniques!! I NEVER used nor tried that technology at all. ALL the watches I sell are all original and just by simple polished machine, which is also used by ROLEX service centre.

I don't understand why selling nice and beautiful watches is a wrong thing in your forum. I buy and sell about 500 vintage ROLEX a year. And just took the nicest one to sell in the forums. Others were wholesale to other dealers. Moreover, all my buyers in your forum were just happy with their purchase and never got any complains at all. So, what's wrong with me? Should you do any measures to protect the flawless dealers, like me, from those people who just want to attact us and damage our reputation?
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Old 24 February 2015, 09:58 PM   #96
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Thx cru...
Maybe it's time we all make our own informed decisions.
Interestingly my original question about methods to tell original patina from sped up ones is still unanswered...so i guess theres no way to tell in reality and tests that can be performed to tell the difference has not been invented yet.
Interestingly we often see posts of watches from ebay posted here and asked for opinions on authenticity but when it comes to patina, it's unauthenticatable.
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Old 24 February 2015, 10:38 PM   #97
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Give the guy a break, i have never bought a watch from him, but the one or two times I have inquired (we didn't agree on price), he was informative and sent me tons of additional pics when requested.

Don't blame someone for taking nice pictures and enhancing his wares with good angles and nice light, don't we all do that when we take our own pics?

If you don't like this don't buy from him,!bur don't soil someone's reputation based on disbelief.
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Old 24 February 2015, 10:50 PM   #98
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Give the guy a break, i have never bought a watch from him, but the one or two times I have inquired (we didn't agree on price), he was informative and sent me tons of additional pics when requested.

Don't blame someone for taking nice pictures and enhancing his wares with good angles and nice light, don't we all do that when we take our own pics?

If you don't like this don't buy from him,!bur don't soil someone's reputation based on disbelief.
+1.
I've contacted Ben a few times even though I've only bought from him once (very sweet deal and watch).
In all the emails and questions we've exchange, he's never once been off-beat with me and always but always answered my questions even though I've probably been a pain in asking too many.
Camera angles and lighting levels can show Patina for better or worse. I'd have no problem dealing with him again if something took my fancy.
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Old 24 February 2015, 11:05 PM   #99
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I have met ben sin on three separate occasions and bought from him on one occasion several years ago. He is a young man not atypical of the easy-going, make-a-living average joe. He has been selling as a private dealer (no store front) and wholesaler (buy-and-sell trade between dealers) for ages, and his heavily-preferred clientele are overseas buyers outside of HK. He has relatively strong pricing and has been refining his sales descriptions progressively through the years, especially as words like 'colour-matched' and 'laser-welded' and the dreaded 'unpolished' have increasingly become very taboo. I personally do not have any issue/qualms with him as both a seller and a buyer.

Trav, to address your original question, patina is not 'accelerated', but in fact instantly altered/enhanced. There are two methods to do so WITHOUT a relume, one that has been around for a significant amount of time, the other a more recent development. These methods are irreversible and almost undetectable without substantial experience in examining lume shape, texture, colour etc. I would venture to say this - perfect, matching, dark original lume is possible and extremely low cost to accomplish. However, it requires exceptional skill and time to perfect. Enough said here.

As buyers, bottom line is now more importantly than ever - do your homework, and buy what you like. There is no substitute for holding and viewing a watch in-person, as difficult and rare a chance as that may be when it comes to vintage rolex. I personally buy the watch over the seller, and only because - you wear the watch, and not the seller, on your wrist.
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Old 24 February 2015, 11:43 PM   #100
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Thx r4gs for at least answering my question.
Liked i said in my first post..i have yet to believe in those patina that comes in droves from the same seller but as a person/seller(i have emailed him before)..i have no problems and that wasn't my contention in this thread.

Maybe he was lucky and smart in sourcing these pieces.credit to him. He may or may not know the history of individual watches that he sells. We need to evaluate the watches on their own.

Nothing against him..really.
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Old 25 February 2015, 01:28 AM   #101
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Hmmm... yeah, maybe he was lucky and smart. Different tune, eh!
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Old 25 February 2015, 01:38 AM   #102
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Hmmm... yeah, maybe he was lucky and smart. Different tune, eh!
Maybe you were on a different channel all these while?
I said i have doubts about his watches. I didnt say he was a crook seller. I didnt even name him publicly. He may or may not have known his sources . Does he know they were modified in anyway with certainty? He didnt say so.
Did he modify them? He answered the forum no. So case closed.
If you wanna help, show us the resources you mention in your first response about detecting artificial patina instead.
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Old 25 February 2015, 01:46 AM   #103
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Maybe you were on a different channel all these while?

No, it appears you were. I've been tuned in to this one
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Old 25 February 2015, 01:49 AM   #104
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No, it appears you were. I've been tuned in to this one
Geez here we go again...
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Old 25 February 2015, 01:51 AM   #105
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That's what I said when you started this...
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Old 25 February 2015, 01:55 AM   #106
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Old 25 February 2015, 02:04 AM   #107
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Geez... here we go again.

"Is the a way to tell if they are natural?"

Yes, do some proper research, and make an informed decision.

If you 'don't believe it', don't buy it - simple.
Share with the forum if you have resources to identify natural patina. Since you are so tuned in.
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Old 25 February 2015, 02:24 AM   #108
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...
It's not you
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Old 25 February 2015, 03:53 AM   #109
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This thread....



This one cracked me up...

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Old 25 February 2015, 04:03 AM   #110
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i'm a fan of this one myself...
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Old 25 February 2015, 05:40 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruvon View Post
Update: Wrote to nbtimes asking him for an explanation about the comments here and mentioning what the main concerns here were and told him to confirm that the following is not the case with his watches based on the gist of some of the posts here


a. dials have not been touched, retouched or otherwise optimized
b. cases have not been built up by laser-welding or similar techniques, so they are all original


His reply was and I quote below from his personal message, which he consented to me posting it here after I asked him if he's fine for me to publicly post it in this thread and stand by his watches publicly. So you'll be the judges!
Thanks San for reaching out and getting a response from Ben. I think it's helpful to hear from both sides.
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Old 25 February 2015, 06:12 AM   #112
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+1.
I've contacted Ben a few times even though I've only bought from him once (very sweet deal and watch).
In all the emails and questions we've exchange, he's never once been off-beat with me and always but always answered my questions even though I've probably been a pain in asking too many.
Camera angles and lighting levels can show Patina for better or worse. I'd have no problem dealing with him again if something took my fancy.
i was interested in a watch he has been trying to sell for MORE THAN A YEAR. after asking for some more pictures, i gave him the price i was interested in, which i felt was in line with where this reference is going for on ebay. we arent talking about a 6542 here but a 1970s DJ. upon receiving my price, he sent me a scathing email telling me i was wasting his time and he wouldnt have wasted his time taking pictures.

well, the watch is still unsold and he has lowered the price such that he is now only a few hundred dollars away from my "wasting time" price and it still wont sell.

i also have some other experiences ive heard from several serious collectors regarding laser welding, touched up dials, franken watches. im not going to repeat them here but where there is smoke, there is fire.
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Old 25 February 2015, 07:17 AM   #113
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...where there is smoke, there is fire.
That or there are a lot of fire starters looking to burn down someone's house for hidden reasons...

A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. -- Charles Spurgeon

A lie told often enough becomes the truth. -- Vladimir Lenin

A single lie destroys a whole reputation of integrity. -- Baltasar Gracian

I can through out silly maxims that are irrelevant in this situation also!

Some evidence please....
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Old 25 February 2015, 07:48 AM   #114
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That or there are a lot of fire starters looking to burn down someone's house for hidden reasons...

A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. -- Charles Spurgeon

A lie told often enough becomes the truth. -- Vladimir Lenin

A single lie destroys a whole reputation of integrity. -- Baltasar Gracian

I can through out silly maxims that are irrelevant in this situation also!

Some evidence please....
PM me. Id be happy to elaborate.
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Old 25 February 2015, 08:01 AM   #115
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I have no dog in this fight, but when a simple question about too-good-to-be-true patina causes half the forum to instinctively assume you're talking about one particular seller, well, that says a lot.
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Old 25 February 2015, 08:05 AM   #116
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There was a thread around two months ago where a baseless attack was made against a reputable West Coast USA dealer as well, so you'll have to excuse my skepticism.
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Old 25 February 2015, 08:41 AM   #117
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I have no dog in this fight, but when a simple question about too-good-to-be-true patina causes half the forum to instinctively assume you're talking about one particular seller, well, that says a lot.
Rob, I didn't assume it was him based on the first post but on subsequent posts which pointed to him (mention of Hong Kong and NB). Else I wouldn't have had a clue or written to him asking for an explanation.

Now that we have an explanation from both sides would be great if we could publicly see some examples with expert advice of any watches sold by him or advertised by him that have had the attributes mentioned by some.
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Old 25 February 2015, 02:05 PM   #118
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Everybody has to make up their own mind. I do think it is a fair question to discuss on this forum and there is no point to belittle people seeking answers and/or more information. It is healthy to skeptic in this sport.

Personally I bought one watch from Ben a few years back, an A-series SD16600 with original papers. I was told it was unpolished, it did look curiously mint and later when I sold it I had it reviewed by someone more knowledgable than me in terms of vintage Rolex, and that person said he firmly believed it has been polished. The months after I bought my Sea-Dweller, Ben sold several more Sea-Dwellers. Always "unpolished". Always A-serial. Always with "original punch papers" but never with any other accessories like box, tool + wallet, anchor, box, etc.

I have no proof of tampering, EZ bake ovens, laser welding, etc. It might very well be that he specialize and only buys/sells watches with a certain look because that is what sells.

Regardless, anyone dealing with vintage watches needs to be very cautious and patient.

For me, the amount of hype, excessive price increases, market control by a few individuals, and risk of forgery has pretty much killed my interest in vintage Rolex.
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Old 25 February 2015, 02:29 PM   #119
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This thread still goin?

So, what have we learned from it?
Let me sum this up in a few key words.

If you like vintage Rolex with dark patina, then buy it.Just don't bitch about whether or not it's artificial or real.Buy the watch or don't buy the watch........
my point is.....DONT BITCH AFTER THE FACT.....mmmmkay?
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Old 25 February 2015, 03:00 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r4gs View Post
I have met ben sin on three separate occasions and bought from him on one occasion several years ago. He is a young man not atypical of the easy-going, make-a-living average joe. He has been selling as a private dealer (no store front) and wholesaler (buy-and-sell trade between dealers) for ages, and his heavily-preferred clientele are overseas buyers outside of HK. He has relatively strong pricing and has been refining his sales descriptions progressively through the years, especially as words like 'colour-matched' and 'laser-welded' and the dreaded 'unpolished' have increasingly become very taboo. I personally do not have any issue/qualms with him as both a seller and a buyer.

Trav, to address your original question, patina is not 'accelerated', but in fact instantly altered/enhanced. There are two methods to do so WITHOUT a relume, one that has been around for a significant amount of time, the other a more recent development. These methods are irreversible and almost undetectable without substantial experience in examining lume shape, texture, colour etc. I would venture to say this - perfect, matching, dark original lume is possible and extremely low cost to accomplish. However, it requires exceptional skill and time to perfect. Enough said here.

As buyers, bottom line is now more importantly than ever - do your homework, and buy what you like. There is no substitute for holding and viewing a watch in-person, as difficult and rare a chance as that may be when it comes to vintage rolex. I personally buy the watch over the seller, and only because - you wear the watch, and not the seller, on your wrist.
Hi Matt,
Are you able to share with us the process of these methods you have indicated above?
It could be of great benefit to all of us, particularly if the process is identifiable.
Awaiting with great interest!
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