16710 - Warranty Papers Stating Original Bezel (Untruthful Seller)?

[Lord Tomato]

Hi,

I’ve been in the lookout for a GMT Master II 16710 for a little while and bought one from Chrono24 about 1.5 weeks ago. As I’m not an expert on older watches, I got huge help from a certain member here (kudos to @PepsiBezel!). I was looking for a very specific 16710 from later on during its production, with solid end links and without lug holes. Furthermore, I wanted a complete full set, original bracelet and a watch in more or less perfect condition (it recently underwent service at RSC and was very lightly polished, preserving its sharp lugs).

The watch was supposedly produced in 2004 and was originally sold in HK. The warranty papers state that it was sold in mid 2005. One thing I noticed was that the calendar card was from 2003/2004, but I don’t know if that’s something out of the ordinary, as the watch was produced in 2004. Here’s the weird part, the service card, which was shown on the Chrono24 listing, stated the reference number as “16710LN”. The bezel in the watch is a Coke. I asked the seller about this and they stated that Rolex put LN on all their service cards because they didn’t specify bezels at that time and thus needed to put something on the service card. I just noticed that even the warranty papers state that the watch is a “16710LN”. The seller assured me (saved in the Chrono24 chat) that the watch was indeed produced with a Coke bezel. I wrote to them earlier today and they just replied, stating basically that “LN” is an arbitrary code used for a late produced 16710s (check out the chat here).

I’m confused. I paid a great deal for the watch just to get one that was totally within what I had in mind, as I was looking for a very specific 16710. I’ve tried contacting Chrono24 and I’m awaiting their response.

What do you experts say? Is what they’re saying correct? I googled around a bit and the only information I found was that only US watches had specific references stating their original bezel.

[joli160]

Unless a US watch I think the seller is right.
Different paperwork in use all over the world.
You will never be able to tell if it is still the original bezel or not afaik.
These were swapped at random all the time.

Be happy with your watch and if you really want a black bezel just buy one.

[MJZRolex]

Interesting information about a sought after model. Perhaps one day I'll have one and keep this information in mind when I purchase it. Enjoy your 16710.

[Lord Tomato]

I forgot to add the a screenshot of the chat earlier. Added it to the original post now (can be found here too)

It’s weird because several 16710s I’ve seen don’t have any bezel references stated on any papers. Just want to be sure that the seller isn’t pulling a trick. Resale value isn’t the biggest thought I have, but in case I’d want to sell it later on, wouldn’t an LN reference affect the resale value?

Originally Posted by joli160

Unless a US watch I think the seller is right.
Different paperwork in use all over the world.
You will never be able to tell if it is still the original bezel or not afaik.
These were swapped at random all the time.

Be happy with your watch and if you really want a black bezel just buy one.

The black bezel is the one I want the least. I just find it weird that the papers (stamped in HK) specify “LN” and the service card too, while the seller says that it’s just something Rolex does. Weird that other service cards don’t have that info…

[bp1000]

I’ll have to check inside the box later but i photo document all my papers before the boxes go into storage and according to my guarantee mine doesn’t even have the colour written on it.

Just the name and model number, purchased from goldsmiths in the Uk in 2007.

I bought the full set as a Pepsi but with a coke bezel in a metal service case.

[Lord Tomato]

Originally Posted by bp1000

I’ll have to check inside the box later but i photo document all my papers before the boxes go into storage and according to my guarantee mine doesn’t even have the colour written on it.

Just the name and model number, purchased from goldsmiths in the Uk in 2007.

I bought the full set as a Pepsi but with a coke bezel in a metal service case.

Here’s a photo of the warranty paper. Most service cards I’ve seen just state 16710. Mine has the same reference as the warranty papers…

[bp1000]

Originally Posted by Lord Tomato

Here’s a photo of the warranty paper. Most service cards I’ve seen just state 16710. Mine has the same reference as the warranty papers…

Maybe they changed it later on, my 2007 papers are actually punched and don’t say the model number there; they say the serial number.

Sorry I couldn’t be more help

You should ring Rolex and ask if there are any notices on the watch and if they have seen it before.

Patek are happy to confirm if watch is ok, not sure about Rolex.

[Casey VP-26]

AS long as the serial number matches the papers, I wouldn't worry about this especially if you like the watch. This is a great watch with the possibility of 3 different looks with the three bezels. Good Luck Lord

[Lord Tomato]

Originally Posted by bp1000

Maybe they changed it later on, my 2007 papers are actually punched and don’t say the model number there; they say the serial number.

Sorry I couldn’t be more help

You should ring Rolex and ask if there are any notices on the watch and if they have seen it before.

Patek are happy to confirm if watch is ok, not sure about Rolex.

The papers are stamped as sold during 2005, I don’t thing they’d change to exclude the bezel reference later on, but I’m no expert. My AD couldn’t find any faults at all witch the watch. It’s in perfect condition. But he didn’t know why it the service card had an LN reference,

Originally Posted by Casey VP-26

AS long as the serial number matches the papers, I wouldn't worry about this especially if you like the watch. This is a great watch with the possibility of 3 different looks with the three bezels. Good Luck Lord

I paid a premium for this watch, so I really don’t want to pay that much if there’s even a slight mistake like this (especially if the seller wasn’t truthful). Yeah, I know that the watch’s function will not differ in any way, but still…

[khalifam]

Yours is black. If the original insert was coke it would not have any denotation after 16710. If you went to Rolex with a coke bezel they would insist you change it back to Geneva specification which would be a black insert.

Sent from my SM-F936B using Tapatalk

[padi56]

Originally Posted by joli160

Unless a US watch I think the seller is right.
Different paperwork in use all over the world.
You will never be able to tell if it is still the original bezel or not afaik.
These were swapped at random all the time.

Be happy with your watch and if you really want a black bezel just buy one.

Exactly that and back then inserts were meant to be interchangeable as inserts then we're around £30 and quite easy to change.The most important bit is the watch and not bits of paper as for the warranty paper well now it's just a out dated bit of paper.

[Lord Tomato]

Originally Posted by khalifam

Yours is black. If the original insert was coke it would not have any denotation after 16710. If you went to Rolex with a coke bezel they would insist you change it back to Geneva specification which would be a black insert.

Sent from my SM-F936B using Tapatalk

Weird. The seller told me that it came with the Coke bezel originally and had a new one inserted (it's has no signs of usage at all) during its latest service.

Originally Posted by padi56

Exactly that and back then inserts were meant to be interchangeable as inserts then we're around £30 and quite easy to change.The most important bit is the watch and not bits of paper as for the warranty paper well now it's just a out dated bit of paper.

It does matter to me. I don't want any issues in the future if Rolex puts further restrictions on bezel changes (as they have with their other parts), as I don't tend to use it with a black bezel. Furthermore, the most irritating part is that the seller trying to assure me that I'm in the wrong and that it is indeed a "true" Coke.

[Rolex1982]

Originally Posted by Lord Tomato

Weird. The seller told me that it came with the Coke bezel originally and had a new one inserted (it's has no signs of usage at all) during its latest service.


It does matter to me. I don't want any issues in the future if Rolex puts further restrictions on bezel changes (as they have with their other parts), as I don't tend to use it with a black bezel. Furthermore, the most irritating part is that the seller trying to assure me that I'm in the wrong and that it is indeed a "true" Coke.

If you don’t trust the seller and have so many doubts, i would advice you to get a refund. This feeling won’t pass because it is impossible to prove that the seller is right or wrong. I wouldn’t want this feeling over a purchase, just get another one that you do trust and also like.

[PepsiBezel]

I don’t think the seller is dishonest; while at the same time all the paperwork is for 16710LN.

It may have had the Coke insert added at the 2021 service.

I am not sure I fully understand your concerns — but if you are this worried and particular you may be happier returning the watch and moving on. It’s very hard to get “perfect” in vintage and neo vintage Rolex.

[Tools]

Different paperwork may be different in all markets, however, LN specifically means Lunette Noir, bezel surround black.

If you are concerned just find yourself a black insert and stick it safely in the box, you don't have to use it.

[khalifam]

Originally Posted by PepsiBezel

I don’t think the seller is dishonest; while at the same time all the paperwork is for 16710LN.

It may have had the Coke insert added at the 2021 service.

I am not sure I fully understand your concerns — but if you are this worried and particular you may be happier returning the watch and moving on. It’s very hard to get “perfect” in vintage and neo vintage Rolex.

No Rolex wouldn't add a coke insert on a LN

LN is ONLY for LN.

Sent from my SM-F936B using Tapatalk

[swish77]

I think there's a gray area here. Usually overseas paperwork doesn't specify the bezel insert type, so it's a little unusual that this Hong Kong-sold 16710 does seem to specify it. But I've also seen other inconsistencies on paperwork like this.

For example, here's another non-U.S. 16710 from around the same time period (2005) that has "LN" on the serial tag, "LN" from a Rolex service but no "LN" on the guarantee paper. Go figure. And it happens to have a Pepsi insert, but who knows if that is original to the watch. (Seller says it is.)

Also, as recently as three years ago, an RSC would put whatever insert you wanted in your GMT, no matter what it originally came with. I know because I did it at RSC NYC. (Not sure if the policy has changed.)

OP, I think it's much ado over nothing, although I do respect the OCD nature of watch-collecting.

[Lord Tomato]

Originally Posted by PepsiBezel

I don’t think the seller is dishonest; while at the same time all the paperwork is for 16710LN.

It may have had the Coke insert added at the 2021 service.

I am not sure I fully understand your concerns — but if you are this worried and particular you may be happier returning the watch and moving on. It’s very hard to get “perfect” in vintage and neo vintage Rolex.

Perhaps I'm too pedantic for the (neo) vintage world.

Originally Posted by Rolex1982

If you don’t trust the seller and have so many doubts, i would advice you to get a refund. This feeling won’t pass because it is impossible to prove that the seller is right or wrong. I wouldn’t want this feeling over a purchase, just get another one that you do trust and also like.

There's nothing wrong with the watch itself. I just can't make out how the watch clearly has an LN reference while the seller states that it isn't the case.

Originally Posted by swish77

I think there's a gray area here. Usually overseas paperwork doesn't specify the bezel insert type, so it's a little unusual that this Hong Kong-sold 16710 does seem to specify it. But I've also seen other inconsistencies on paperwork like this.

For example, here's another non-U.S. 16710 from around the same time period (2005) that has "LN" on the serial tag, "LN" from a Rolex service but no "LN" on the guarantee paper. Go figure. And it happens to have a Pepsi insert, but who knows if that is original to the watch. (Seller says it is.)

Also, as recently as three years ago, an RSC would put whatever insert you wanted in your GMT, no matter what it originally came with. I know because I did it at RSC NYC. (Not sure if the policy has changed.)

OP, I think it's much ado over nothing, although I do respect the OCD nature of watch-collecting.

In my case, both the warranty papers and the service card has an LN reference. I didn't even know about the warranty papers, because there were no photos showing the papers unfolded. The service card had an LN reference on it, fine, perhaps the watch was serviced with an LN bezel. The seller mentioned nothing of the original papers having an LN reference, although I asked about the service card and why it had LN written on it. They still insist that it always had the Coke bezel.

PS. Were the magnifying cyclopes on 16710 always zoomed to x2.5? I find that mine isn't as magnified when having it next to my modern DJ. The AD didn't mention anything about it though and I do know Rolex have been inconsistent with their cyclopes, although unsure if it even affected older watches.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Mister Lord Tomato, by all accounts you have a lovely watch. I hope you can find peace with it and embrace it for the lovely object that it is.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by joli160

Unless a US watch I think the seller is right.
Different paperwork in use all over the world.
You will never be able to tell if it is still the original bezel or not afaik.
These were swapped at random all the time.

Be happy with your watch and if you really want a black bezel just buy one.

I think it's also more than possible that the original AD swapped it at request at time of purchase. Makes sense: Watch was supposedly sitting there for some time (i.e. not being sold), someone came in wanting a Coke bezel, dealer said "sure," took it in the back and swapped bezels. Used to happen all the time with bezel inserts, bracelets, even dials.

I recall a guy on here a while back sending his 16613LB in for service only to be told it was registered in the system as an LN. Back when he'd bought it the LB was very in vogue, the LN not so much, so it seemed the AD did a swap to make a sale. Not nearly as taboo as it is today.

[dcash0615]

LN = black bezel
A = Coke bezel
B = Pepsi bezel

If the warranty paper indicates LN, your GMT was born with an all black bezel. Rolex would not put LN on the warranty papers or any service papers if the watch was born a Coke or Pepsi.

Some warranty papers (outside the USA) did not denote the bezel on the original warranty paper. You would then look at the green hang tag to see if the bezel color the GMT was born with is denoted.

As mentioned, these bezels were swapped frequently so at some point yours was swapped from all black to a Coke bezel.

[SparklesMcgraw]

If the watch is complete and in great condition I would keep it. Just spend the money and get all the different bezels you want. Just accept that sending it to Rolex they won’t replace with anything other than black but who cares? If the seller wasn’t the original buyer, they have no idea what it was ‘born with’ so cannot say definitively. If Rolex serviced it recently, maybe ask them to confirm if you really need to know? Looks like the service card states this already.

[Lord Tomato]

Originally Posted by dcash0615

LN = black bezel
A = Coke bezel
B = Pepsi bezel

If the warranty paper indicates LN, your GMT was born with an all black bezel. Rolex would not put LN on the warranty papers or any service papers if the watch was born a Coke or Pepsi.

Some warranty papers (outside the USA) did not denote the bezel on the original warranty paper. You would then look at the green hang tag to see if the bezel color the GMT was born with is denoted.

As mentioned, these bezels were swapped frequently so at some point yours was swapped from all black to a Coke bezel.

It didn't come with a green hang tag, but both the original warranty paper and the new service card has an LN serial written on them.

Would people generally pay less for a 16710 that clearly has an LN serial, compared to a serial number without any bezel designation?

[fskywalker]

Just enjoy your new watch!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[minute_man]

Fwiw:

My 16710 was sold in Dubai Jan 2007. It's a D Serial, from 05/06. Calendar card has 2006/2007 years on it.
The green hang tag says 16710LN, while the bezel is a BLRO.
I dropped the watch off at my local RSC and noticed BLRO on their paperwork so I thought I'd ask. They said that happend to be the original configuration, LN on hang tag notwithstanding. And that I could change into any bezel color I desired. I have the LN one. Might as well pick up a coke from them. They gave me the option to keep my current insert despite a few hairline scratches so that I can have a headstart with it fading
Enjoy your watch, there's NOTHING wrong with it (or the seller) whatsoever

[Mdpaint]

Much ado about nothing. As long as the insert is corect for date which for yours is the most common one your good. I bought a 16710 with coke bezel that owner who bought new said was original. It wasnt a rolex insert so i bought a fat font serif insert apprpriate for its age. Happy days. My papers or hang tag dont say colour, it was bought in Amsterdam.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[Lord Tomato]

Originally Posted by minute_man

Fwiw:

My 16710 was sold in Dubai Jan 2007. It's a D Serial, from 05/06. Calendar card has 2006/2007 years on it.
The green hang tag says 16710LN, while the bezel is a BLRO.
I dropped the watch off at my local RSC and noticed BLRO on their paperwork so I thought I'd ask. They said that happend to be the original configuration, LN on hang tag notwithstanding. And that I could change into any bezel color I desired. I have the LN one. Might as well pick up a coke from them. They gave me the option to keep my current insert despite a few hairline scratches so that I can have a headstart with it fading
Enjoy your watch, there's NOTHING wrong with it (or the seller) whatsoever

Originally Posted by Mdpaint

Much ado about nothing. As long as the insert is corect for date which for yours is the most common one your good. I bought a 16710 with coke bezel that owner who bought new said was original. It wasnt a rolex insert so i bought a fat font serif insert apprpriate for its age. Happy days. My papers or hang tag dont say colour, it was bought in Amsterdam.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

In both of your cases, the papers don’t mention anything about the watch originally having an LN bezel. The white hanger tag is one thing, but it feels more “official” if all the papers say it.

[minute_man]

Originally Posted by Lord Tomato

It didn't come with a green hang tag, but both the original warranty paper and the new service card has an LN serial written on them.

Would people generally pay less for a 16710 that clearly has an LN serial, compared to a serial number without any bezel designation?

Take it from someone who had been looking for the right piece for almost a year:

I did not give a rat's arse about what color the bezel insert would be.
Much less whether it would be a so-called "rare" "stick" dial (nothing rare about that btw) or a regular "run of the mill" Roman dial.
In fact I much prefer the Roman to the austere sticks but I can live with that.
What DID matter to me though and which I gladly paid a premium for, was primarily condition and secondarily a full set of papers.
I even picked an earlier box for it (as I happen to like the traditional wooden ones which I had never owned before) and a LN insert on my way out

Originally Posted by Lord Tomato

In both of your cases, the papers don’t mention anything about the watch originally having an LN bezel. The white hanger tag is one thing, but it feels more “official” if all the papers say it.

Although RSC could probably tell the original configuration, there's nothing "official" about the 16710 inserts of that era imho, just period correct ones.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Lord Tomato

In both of your cases, the papers don’t mention anything about the watch originally having an LN bezel. The white hanger tag is one thing, but it feels more “official” if all the papers say it.

IMHO you are making mountains out of molehills the so called papers are nothing more than a out dated warranty bit of paper.And if you ever needed to send watch in for service you could remove whatever insert was on the watch then send for service.Rolex then would replace with whatever insert you want as inserts are only around $75 or less direct from Rolex..

[Cloudchaser]

I want to offer a slightly different perspective...

The "complete set" that you've bought has about a 50% chance of being the actual "complete set" as sold originally. Typically, ths same is true of whatever bezel is on the watch when you acquire it.

That means that the entire combination has a very low chance of truly being an original complete set.

To seek vintage and neo-vintage is to accept that fact, and the potential uncertainty it creates, as the table stakes.

If you have the watch you want, in great condition, at an acceptable price, with the warranty paper/card, then you have what you are looking for. The rest is a delusion of sorts. The best you can be is "period correct," really, in which case you can learn box and paperwork codes and go really deep (and still never be sure).

If you're not trusting the seller, that's a different matter.

FWIW.

Originally Posted by Lord Tomato

Hi,

I’ve been in the lookout for a GMT Master II 16710 for a little while and bought one from Chrono24 about 1.5 weeks ago. As I’m not an expert on older watches, I got huge help from a certain member here (kudos to @PepsiBezel!). I was looking for a very specific 16710 from later on during its production, with solid end links and without lug holes. Furthermore, I wanted a complete full set, original bracelet and a watch in more or less perfect condition (it recently underwent service at RSC and was very lightly polished, preserving its sharp lugs).

The watch was supposedly produced in 2004 and was originally sold in HK. The warranty papers state that it was sold in mid 2005. One thing I noticed was that the calendar card was from 2003/2004, but I don’t know if that’s something out of the ordinary, as the watch was produced in 2004. Here’s the weird part, the service card, which was shown on the Chrono24 listing, stated the reference number as “16710LN”. The bezel in the watch is a Coke. I asked the seller about this and they stated that Rolex put LN on all their service cards because they didn’t specify bezels at that time and thus needed to put something on the service card. I just noticed that even the warranty papers state that the watch is a “16710LN”. The seller assured me (saved in the Chrono24 chat) that the watch was indeed produced with a Coke bezel. I wrote to them earlier today and they just replied, stating basically that “LN” is an arbitrary code used for a late produced 16710s (check out the chat here).

I’m confused. I paid a great deal for the watch just to get one that was totally within what I had in mind, as I was looking for a very specific 16710. I’ve tried contacting Chrono24 and I’m awaiting their response.

What do you experts say? Is what they’re saying correct? I googled around a bit and the only information I found was that only US watches had specific references stating their original bezel.