Where is the IWC Genta Ingenieur?

[wsrobert]

All this talk of price for this IWC. But where’s the outrage over Rolex using the same movement in a $6k OP and a $10k Sub? Oh, I guess that’s because of the case, bracelet, bezel, etc. Can those of you complaining about price not see the hypocrisy? Or do you also think Rolex has priced their models incorrectly? The market will decide after all.

[ISWing]

Originally Posted by wsrobert

All this talk of price for this IWC. But where’s the outrage over Rolex using the same movement in a $6k OP and a $10k Sub? Oh, I guess that’s because of the case, bracelet, bezel, etc. Can those of you complaining about price not see the hypocrisy? Or do you also think Rolex has priced their models incorrectly? The market will decide after all.

I couldn’t agree more. I think people care to much about resell value, which wasn’t a thing a few years ago. The whole movement argument is a joke as well. Until recently not many watches were even in-house, e.g all the holy trinity and Rolex.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by ISWing

I couldn’t agree more. I think people care to much about resell value, which wasn’t a thing a few years ago. The whole movement argument is a joke as well. Until recently not many watches were even in-house, e.g all the holy trinity and Rolex.

Let the record reflect this 32111 is an in-house movement (and I agree it doesn't matter unless it's a better movement).

I honestly remember that starting in the early 2000s as a way for "Rolex people" to discriminate against Omega for its decorated ETA 2892A2s (which by the way I'd trust with my life) in it's fully machined case, bracelet, and clasp watches while Rolex was stamping tuna can clasps and rolling links up out of sheet metal.

[trackingtime]

Originally Posted by wsrobert

All this talk of price for this IWC. But where’s the outrage over Rolex using the same movement in a $6k OP and a $10k Sub? Oh, I guess that’s because of the case, bracelet, bezel, etc. Can those of you complaining about price not see the hypocrisy? Or do you also think Rolex has priced their models incorrectly? The market will decide after all.

because rolex
same case, not much finishing

[trackingtime]

Originally Posted by ISWing

I couldn’t agree more. I think people care to much about resell value, which wasn’t a thing a few years ago. The whole movement argument is a joke as well. Until recently not many watches were even in-house, e.g all the holy trinity and Rolex.

yeap, the only few true in house is JLC or Zenith (apart from indie)

[djtheot]

Originally Posted by wsrobert

All this talk of price for this IWC. But where’s the outrage over Rolex using the same movement in a $6k OP and a $10k Sub? Oh, I guess that’s because of the case, bracelet, bezel, etc. Can those of you complaining about price not see the hypocrisy? Or do you also think Rolex has priced their models incorrectly? The market will decide after all.

This. Honestly this contagion of price/movement is nonsense. If you think any luxury watch is well priced then give your head a wobble. Buy what you like, the faux outrage on this is laughable. I miss the days of collectors not speculators.


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[charger_vital]

I'm personally blown away that this watch has gotten so much attention on this forum. It's the same watch IWC had 10 years ago with all the average specs and aesthetics (hardly resembling the watch Genta actually designed, which was unique and very cool).

But credit to IWC for minimizing their design effort while maximizing the hype. After I saw it in the flesh, I would have never guessed people would like it so much. Shows what I know.

[DoricSpiker]

Don't upset them again ! :)

[EEpro]

No one is upset. If anything the price tag police are running around clubbing smiling WIS.

[trackingtime]

Originally Posted by EEpro

No one is upset. If anything the price tag police are running around clubbing smiling WIS.

most of them are die hard rolex owners. LOL

[trackingtime]

Originally Posted by djtheot

This. Honestly this contagion of price/movement is nonsense. If you think any luxury watch is well priced then give your head a wobble. Buy what you like, the faux outrage on this is laughable. I miss the days of collectors not speculators.


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[londonpilgrim]

Originally Posted by trackingtime

Agreed, these are items well-made and well-made by well-paid people, they are not made in forced-labour camps in China.

[ISWing]

This video looks into alot of the questions some people have with this watch.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LhxgzB...ature=youtu.be

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by ISWing

This video looks into alot of the questions some people have with this watch.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LhxgzB...ature=youtu.be

10:00 point is hilarious. (Starting at movement ownership at 9:44)

[trackingtime]

Originally Posted by londonpilgrim

Agreed, these are items well-made and well-made by well-paid people, they are not made in forced-labour camps in China.

exactly. not daniel wellington.
pay peanuts get peanuts

[djtheot]

This is brilliant!

Originally Posted by ISWing

This video looks into alot of the questions some people have with this watch.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LhxgzB...ature=youtu.be

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by djtheot

This. Honestly this contagion of price/movement is nonsense. If you think any luxury watch is well priced then give your head a wobble. Buy what you like, the faux outrage on this is laughable. I miss the days of collectors not speculators.


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need thumbs up button again

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[DoricSpiker]

So I watched the little video above. I question if the Royal Oak was hyped in the 70’s. How do you do that, by carrier pigeon?
This watch is now the IWC flagship? Haven’t even heard marketing hype boy Christoph say that. I think the pilot range would have something to say if it could speak.
Rolex prices are also inflated? Ask a 100 people if they want a ceramic green sub or an Ingenieur, 99 will say sub. Therefore you could price £5k above the IWC if you wanted to, but they haven’t.
It’s £5k overpriced, the IWC, when you look at the direct competition. It will only be a wait list piece because they are restricting the distribution brutally. You will get one in 24 months at 60% of the retail price. It’s also a nice watch I agree, but not a 5 figure watch.


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[trackingtime]

Originally Posted by DoricSpiker

So I watched the little video above. I question if the Royal Oak was hyped in the 70’s. How do you do that, by carrier pigeon?
This watch is now the IWC flagship? Haven’t even heard marketing hype boy Christoph say that. I think the pilot range would have something to say if it could speak.
Rolex prices are also inflated? Ask a 100 people if they want a ceramic green sub or an Ingenieur, 99 will say sub. Therefore you could price £5k above the IWC if you wanted to, but they haven’t.
It’s £5k overpriced, the IWC, when you look at the direct competition. It will only be a wait list piece because they are restricting the distribution brutally. You will get one in 24 months at 60% of the retail price. It’s also a nice watch I agree, but not a 5 figure watch.


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when rolex does that, you will have a way different view again.
among the lines of "damn it, you can't get one yet the retail prices go up by 50%"

[djtheot]

Originally Posted by DoricSpiker

So I watched the little video above. I question if the Royal Oak was hyped in the 70’s. How do you do that, by carrier pigeon?
This watch is now the IWC flagship? Haven’t even heard marketing hype boy Christoph say that. I think the pilot range would have something to say if it could speak.
Rolex prices are also inflated? Ask a 100 people if they want a ceramic green sub or an Ingenieur, 99 will say sub. Therefore you could price £5k above the IWC if you wanted to, but they haven’t.
It’s £5k overpriced, the IWC, when you look at the direct competition. It will only be a wait list piece because they are restricting the distribution brutally. You will get one in 24 months at 60% of the retail price. It’s also a nice watch I agree, but not a 5 figure watch.


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Yep, 99 out of 100 people will go Rolex over almost anything else. That’s not exclusive to iwc. Also Rolex produce over a million watches a year vs 120k IWC and much much less the ingeniur. At the end of the day It’s just a watch at a price point that will have very few in the wild. No one has to buy it. I’m so bored of seeing speculation on resale. I will say again there is a difference between speculating and collecting. Every luxury watch is overpriced including Rolex. How are people even angry/irritated by a brand releasing something in a market where EVERYTHING is marked up massively and is marketed as exclusive/luxury. The video calls this out. IWC have gone with the market.


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[Patek_collector]

Tried the black today… it is really nicer than what i thought. I will try to the green blue which even seem nicer… i know well the guys at IWC on a personal basis here. Never bought an IWC before. I can tell you production seems very, very low… now i understand the pricing philosophy… i may not agree on it, but at least for 2023/2024, this wont be a watch as available.




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[smalleq]

Originally Posted by wsrobert

All this talk of price for this IWC. But where’s the outrage over Rolex using the same movement in a $6k OP and a $10k Sub? Oh, I guess that’s because of the case, bracelet, bezel, etc. Can those of you complaining about price not see the hypocrisy? Or do you also think Rolex has priced their models incorrectly? The market will decide after all.

Sure, if you want to round one price down and round up the other one, you can certainly make your argument look better, but a no date Sub is $9100 and a 41mm OP is $6400, so "only" a $2700 difference, whereas the steel Ingenieur is just a bit short of a full doubling of the Mark XX on the bracelet. There are plenty of arguments to be made about how these are luxury goods and pricing doesn't need to make sense if you want to make them, but this is dishonest to your point.

[mobster600]

Heres an analogy. The same movement in the 5711 is in an $24k Aquanaut and in Calatrava's. Nobody seems to mind spending 100k+ for a watch that shares the same movement with those. Surely people are not buying the 5711 for the movement. So what is it? The bracelet and case design?

Next, why would you want a higher quality movement in a watch designed for anti-magnetism? The watch had a soft iron cage. This model has the dial made from iron. The watch by design will never have a clear caseback. Why put a high end decorated movement in this watch?

Yes the $11,700 price is nearing the high end watch market. I cant defend or understand that price myself. But to play devils advocate, its only a few thousand from where it should be. We are not talking 10's of thousands. I'm not happy with the price, but if it is remarkable when we finally get to see it in real life. Then we will know for sure. For now, no one has seen it personally except a few people. Everyone who has seen one has been very positive towards it. Maybe that is the indication we should focus on

[Nav01L]

This whole controversy ends up doing exactly what IWC wants. Now everyone knows to the dollar what you have to pay for this watch. If someone walks around in one, you’ll know they had that money to spend. And that alone is a reason to buy one for many people.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by mobster600

Heres an analogy. The same movement in the 5711 is in an $24k Aquanaut and in Calatrava's. Nobody seems to mind spending 100k+ for a watch that shares the same movement with those. Surely people are not buying the 5711 for the movement. So what is it? The bracelet and case design?

Next, why would you want a higher quality movement in a watch designed for anti-magnetism? The watch had a soft iron cage. This model has the dial made from iron. The watch by design will never have a clear caseback. Why put a high end decorated movement in this watch?

Yes the $11,700 price is nearing the high end watch market. I cant defend or understand that price myself. But to play devils advocate, its only a few thousand from where it should be. We are not talking 10's of thousands. I'm not happy with the price, but if it is remarkable when we finally get to see it in real life. Then we will know for sure. For now, no one has seen it personally except a few people. Everyone who has seen one has been very positive towards it. Maybe that is the indication we should focus on

People have been complaining about the Ingenieur's MSRP and at the MSRP level your analogy doesn't quite work. Even after the special 2018 20% Nautilus price hike the upcharge from 5167/1A to 5711/1A remained less than 40% compared to almost 100% from the Mark XX to the new Ingenieur, see EUR MSRPs from after the 2018 20% Nautilus price hike, 5711/1A 26.8k (after some 22k earlier that year), 5167/1A 19.7k, 5167A 17.0k.

I have a lot of sympathy for your comments on the movement though. One could argue that the iron cage isn't necessary in the 21st century but that would be like saying that mechanical watches are obsolete altogether. For me the Ingenieur is a tool watch that doesn't need a highly decorated movement.

Regarding the positivity from those who saw the watch I'd argue everyone who already made the effort had a positive disposition anyway. But I'll admit that most customer wrist shots look better than the marketing photos. As far as I can tell it certainly is a nice watch.

[deuxani]

Not everyone who handled it was positive about the Ingenieur. I think this video sums it up quite well: https://youtube.com/shorts/DvhC0Lib-tk?feature=share

I have the same issue, I want to like / love it, but it’s not there yet because of mentioned factors.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by mobster600

Heres an analogy. The same movement in the 5711 is in an $24k Aquanaut and in Calatrava's. Nobody seems to mind spending 100k+ for a watch that shares the same movement with those. Surely people are not buying the 5711 for the movement. So what is it? The bracelet and case design?

Next, why would you want a higher quality movement in a watch designed for anti-magnetism? The watch had a soft iron cage. This model has the dial made from iron. The watch by design will never have a clear caseback. Why put a high end decorated movement in this watch?

Yes the $11,700 price is nearing the high end watch market. I cant defend or understand that price myself. But to play devils advocate, its only a few thousand from where it should be. We are not talking 10's of thousands. I'm not happy with the price, but if it is remarkable when we finally get to see it in real life. Then we will know for sure. For now, no one has seen it personally except a few people. Everyone who has seen one has been very positive towards it. Maybe that is the indication we should focus on

I have seen all of them in the flesh (all dial colors plus the titanium). Held them. Put them on my wrist. Inspected them closely. The watch is average to good. Nothing especially remarkable, bad, or memorable about it.

The Ingenieur is not comparable to a Nautilus or a Royal Oak (or many other non-Genta integrated bracelet watches for that matter) because it's not the same class in terms of finish or design. I get the temptation to compare the so-called Genta watches because he designed the original iterations of all three. But the Royal Oak and Nautilus have stayed true to the original Genta design, whereas the modern IWC looks nothing like Genta's original version. In fact, it has strayed so far from the original design cues that made it unique, that it looks like an unimaginative homage of itself. Plainly put, it's not really a Genta design any longer. So when you consider these extreme dissimilarities, there's really nothing to compare.

It's not a horrible watch. It's actually kind of cool in my opinion. But it is in the competitive space of Bremont Supernova, Maurice Lecroix Aikon, Breitling Chronomat, and/or Zenith Deft Skyline* (I note, the Zenith isnt really an integrated watch, but close enough here). And I'd put it solidly at number 2 in this class. And by the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that grouping of watches except that IWC charges double what its competitors (Bremont, Zenith, Breitling) charge.

Do not be fooled into thinking that it charges half of the Royal Oak or Nautilus... The real Genta watches are in a totally different league.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

This whole controversy ends up doing exactly what IWC wants. Now everyone knows to the dollar what you have to pay for this watch. If someone walks around in one, you’ll know they had that money to spend. And that alone is a reason to buy one for many people.

You raise a really great point. And more power to IWC or anybody who buys and flips it or feels prestigious in wearing it. Those things matter to them. But I don't think any of that will change my impression about the watch or affect my perception of the people wearing it, which is what matters to me.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

You raise a really great point. And more power to IWC or anybody who buys and flips it or feels prestigious in wearing it. Those things matter to them. But I don't think any of that will change my impression about the watch or affect my perception of the people wearing it, which is what matters to me.

Maybe not initially, but over time, enough people you otherwise admire might have bought it for those lowly Motive that you‘ll come to accept it as something cool people wear. Not saying that’s necessarily going to happen, but it’s literally how the Royal Oak happened… so it’s not for the lack of historical precedent…

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

I have seen all of them in the flesh (all dial colors plus the titanium). Held them. Put them on my wrist. Inspected them closely. The watch is average to good. Nothing especially remarkable, bad, or memorable about it.

The Ingenieur is not comparable to a Nautilus or a Royal Oak (or many other non-Genta integrated bracelet watches for that matter) because it's not the same class in terms of finish or design. I get the temptation to compare the so-called Genta watches because he designed the original iterations of all three. But the Royal Oak and Nautilus have stayed true to the original Genta design, whereas the modern IWC looks nothing like Genta's original version. In fact, it has strayed so far from the original design cues that made it unique, that it looks like an unimaginative homage of itself. Plainly put, it's not really a Genta design any longer. So when you consider these extreme dissimilarities, there's really nothing to compare.

It's not a horrible watch. It's actually kind of cool in my opinion. But it is in the competitive space of Bremont Supernova, Maurice Lecroix Aikon, Breitling Chronomat, and/or Zenith Deft Skyline* (I note, the Zenith isnt really an integrated watch, but close enough here). And I'd put it solidly at number 2 in this class. And by the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that grouping of watches except that IWC charges double what its competitors (Bremont, Zenith, Breitling) charge.

Do not be fooled into thinking that it charges half of the Royal Oak or Nautilus... The real Genta watches are in a totally different league.

Riddle me this though, why is the IWC Mk 20 double the price of a Baume & Mercier Baumatic and nobody seems to believe that’s objectionable? Same movement once again… the point being, substance value is only one of the factors behind the pricing of these things, positioning, if done well, can be just as legit a factor.

Now whether or not they’re going to do that well is another question. But there’s no denying that they’ve had a brilliant start in cementing the notion that this thing is expensive (and thus exclusive, as you have to be in a certain demographic to not give a damn about what substance you get for your five figures). Thanks to you, me, all of us, this message has made the rounds far further than an ordinary ad campaign could ever have. I say good job IWC.