Sofodot - SCAMMER FROM UKRAINE - BEWARE

[INC]

Originally Posted by 77T

Thus, PayPal has nothing to send you.

I think, you misunderstand something, Pay with PP is not a wire transfer. Please refer to this:

"Protection you can count on

If you don't receive the item that you ordered, or it shows up significantly different from its description, you may qualify for Purchase Protection, and we'll reimburse you for the full purchase price plus any original shipping costs, subject to terms and limitations. If you are charged for a transaction that you didn't make, let us know within 60 days, and we've got you covered."

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mp...y-and-security

This has nothing to do if the seller cashed the money or not, because not the seller, but PP guarantees for you to get your money back if it was a fraud.

[77T]

Originally Posted by schnipples24

I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. You're saying all a scammer needs to do is withdraw the funds and paypal can't recover money for the buyer? If that's the case then 99% of all claims would be rejected, how does paypal offer buyer protection then?
- asking genuine questions trying to educate myself, not trying to come off as disrespectful. How should I go about the CC claim? I'm heading tonight to file a police report. I created a reddit thread as well and they said not to start a chargeback until the paypal dispute is cleared up otherwise paypal will close the dispute. Thanks.

It happens all the time. PP weeds them out as quickly as they can. But scammers can create dozens of new accounts per day.

In sequence your path is:
File a police report.

Then do either of the following:
1. File a PP dispute, or
2. File a CC dispute.

Have you read your complete PP contracts? Both for you as account holder and he as seller, and the protection clauses…

In there you will see how the funds move.

As for sequence, here is what you agreed to with PP for dispute settlement from the beginning of your relationship with them:

Dispute with PayPal or Your Card Issuer

If you used a debit or credit card as the payment method for a transaction through your PayPal account and you are dissatisfied with the transaction, you may be entitled to dispute the transaction with your card issuer.

Applicable card chargeback rights may be broader than those available to you under PayPal’s Purchase Protection program. For example, if you dispute a transaction with your card issuer, you may be able to recover amounts you paid for unsatisfactory items even if they don’t qualify for protection under a Significantly Not as Described claim with us.

You must choose whether to pursue a dispute with PayPal under our Purchase Protection program, or to pursue the dispute with your card issuer. You can’t do both at the same time or seek a double recovery. If you pursue a dispute/claim with us and you also pursue a dispute for the same transaction with your card issuer, we’ll close your dispute/claim with us. This won’t affect the dispute process with your card issuer. In addition, if you pursue a dispute with your card issuer, you cannot pursue a dispute/claim with us later.

If you choose to dispute a transaction with PayPal and we decide against you, you can seek to pursue the dispute with your card issuer later. If PayPal does not make a final decision on your claim until after your card issuer’s deadline for filing a dispute, and because of our delay you recover less than the full amount you would have been entitled to recover from the card issuer, we will reimburse you for the remainder of your loss (minus any amount you have already recovered from the seller or your card issuer).


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[77T]

Originally Posted by INC

I think, you misunderstand something, Pay with PP is not a wire transfer. Please refer to this:

"Protection you can count on

If you don't receive the item that you ordered, or it shows up significantly different from its description, you may qualify for Purchase Protection, and we'll reimburse you for the full purchase price plus any original shipping costs, subject to terms and limitations. If you are charged for a transaction that you didn't make, let us know within 60 days, and we've got you covered."

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mp...y-and-security

This has nothing to do if the seller cashed the money or not, because not the seller, but PP guarantees for you to get your money back if it was a fraud.

I am quite familiar with PayPal.
Also know the difference.

PP is a transaction processor and not a bank.


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[INC]

Originally Posted by 77T

PP is a transaction processor and not a bank.

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I'm sorry if you felt that way.

However, I strongly disagree with you. PP is not a processor, but a financial service provider, a fintech company, which is a good example on why the difference between banks and service providers is starting to blur.

However, this does not change one thing:

If a legal entity promises a natural person anywhere in the world that it will charge money for some service, it is a violation of consumer rights if it does not perform according to this. This is exactly why there are two types of referral options on the PP evening. In one of them, you can transfer any amount to anyone for free, but then PP does not take any responsibility other than that the recipient receives the money. In the other case, you pay precisely because you are buying goods and you want to be sure that you will not be a victim of a criminal. Which, by the way, is the default method if you buy somethig from a legal entity in an online store.

So in my opinion in such cases, PP has no legal right to claim whether they are able to recollect the money from the seller, because you as the buyer are not in contract with the seller in the money transfer's aspect, but with PP. And as this agreement states that you will either receive the goods or get your money back, in such a case in my opinion they have to refund. All the rest is their problem, and not the buyer's.

But naturally, the above are my humble opinion only, which are based on the fact that I always got back my money that the fraudsters wanted to take.

I love PP's service exactly because they are not acting like a bank who are always washes their hands, but in the same time asking for more and more money for nothing!

[77T]

In this transaction they served as a processor only - it was CC transaction.

Online of course but still a stacked transaction.

As the OP’s dispute plays out we will see what role PP undertakes under their contract with the buyer.

PS: No hurt feelings - just sticking to the fact pattern thus far.


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[schnipples24]

Originally Posted by 77T

It happens all the time. PP weeds them out as quickly as they can. But scammers can create dozens of new accounts per day.

In sequence your path is:
File a police report.

Then do either of the following:
1. File a PP dispute, or
2. File a CC dispute.

Have you read your complete PP contracts? Both for you as account holder and he as seller, and the protection clauses…

In there you will see how the funds move.

As for sequence, here is what you agreed to with PP for dispute settlement from the beginning of your relationship with them:

Dispute with PayPal or Your Card Issuer

If you used a debit or credit card as the payment method for a transaction through your PayPal account and you are dissatisfied with the transaction, you may be entitled to dispute the transaction with your card issuer.

Applicable card chargeback rights may be broader than those available to you under PayPal’s Purchase Protection program. For example, if you dispute a transaction with your card issuer, you may be able to recover amounts you paid for unsatisfactory items even if they don’t qualify for protection under a Significantly Not as Described claim with us.

You must choose whether to pursue a dispute with PayPal under our Purchase Protection program, or to pursue the dispute with your card issuer. You can’t do both at the same time or seek a double recovery. If you pursue a dispute/claim with us and you also pursue a dispute for the same transaction with your card issuer, we’ll close your dispute/claim with us. This won’t affect the dispute process with your card issuer. In addition, if you pursue a dispute with your card issuer, you cannot pursue a dispute/claim with us later.

If you choose to dispute a transaction with PayPal and we decide against you, you can seek to pursue the dispute with your card issuer later. If PayPal does not make a final decision on your claim until after your card issuer’s deadline for filing a dispute, and because of our delay you recover less than the full amount you would have been entitled to recover from the card issuer, we will reimburse you for the remainder of your loss (minus any amount you have already recovered from the seller or your card issuer).


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I'm going tonight to file a police report. I've already started the paypal dispute. Do I contact paypal and add on the fact that I've started a police report? How do I got about including the police report in my paypal claim? Thanks.

[77T]

I’d let PayPal know you have a police report # in your dispute filing. If they want it, they will ask for it. I never had to file one for a PP fraud matter.

If you choose to go with a PP dispute ahead of CC dispute, then I’d tell them that you’re foregoing the CC until they have resolved this. Let PP know the seller has not rectified it despite your best efforts.


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[INC]

Originally Posted by 77T

In this transaction they served as a processor only - it was CC transaction.

Thank you for your understanding!

In the meantime, I think, I found the root on why we don't understand each other! IMHO you missed this important part from the OP's message:

"I made sure to use Paypal goods and services"

Therefore I told, In this case it is not a wire transfer like a CC payment, but a payment which is insured by Paypal! In this case in my view the funding source is indifferent, so to pay from a Paypal account, or pay with a credit card dircetly is not relevant as the payment falls under PP purchase guarantee policy.

@OP: It's not mandatory to file a police claim, it does not hurt or helps. But it's a good news! Please note, not you are the victim for now, but PP. However before to do this, first they will ask the seller to repay their money back, and only if it will not work, then THEY WILL start a police report, but not in the US, but in Poland as the fraud happened there.

[schnipples24]

Originally Posted by 77T

I’d let PayPal know you have a police report # in your dispute filing. If they want it, they will ask for it. I never had to file one for a PP fraud matter.

If you choose to go with a PP dispute ahead of CC dispute, then I’d tell them that you’re foregoing the CC until they have resolved this. Let PP know the seller has not rectified it despite your best efforts.


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Based on what you said previously I believe it's best to start with a PayPal claim, no? Because you said if I file CC first then I can't file PP claim. My logic is file PP claim, wait 10 days hoping they resolve it and give me the money back. If they don't, then I can go through CC claim. Does that sound right? Thanks.

[schnipples24]

Thinking about this situation I suppose it's good this guy is such a shitty scammer. They could've sent me some shit watch and declared it as a watch on the forms and I think I'd have a much harder time with my dispute. The fact he sent me some random books and declared that on the forms I don't see how PayPal would side with them.

[INC]

Originally Posted by schnipples24

Based on what you said previously I believe it's best to start with a PayPal claim, no?

For sure, this is the first step, as they should know about the issue to try to resolve it.

Because you said if I file CC first then I can't file PP claim.

Nope, that wasn't me In my opinion is always a good thing to inform your bank about a dead sure fraud, as maybe they will be able to ban that dishonest person completly out from the entire US banking system. However this step will not help you to get your money back. In this case I agree with 77T, they won't be able to recover your money. What they can do is maybe to ask for your agencies help, as this case is an international crime.

My logic is file PP claim, wait 10 days hoping they resolve it and give me the money back. If they don't, then I can go through CC claim. Does that sound right? Thanks.

Now relax, wait for the closing day of the dispute on PP.

In my experience, if during this period the seller will not show an evidence, that you received the watch, then the case will be closed by PP in itself, and they will issue a full refund to you in some days. If you will not receive the proper answer, or their automatic system will not work as it should do, then you can call them directly, or write an email for their anti-fraud "hotline".

[INC]

Originally Posted by schnipples24

Thinking about this situation I suppose it's good this guy is such a shitty scammer. They could've sent me some shit watch and declared it as a watch on the forms and I think I'd have a much harder time with my dispute. The fact he sent me some random books and declared that on the forms I don't see how PayPal would side with them.

Relax! I KNOW this case sounds like a nightmare for you, because I was even more frightened and nervous when it happened to me for the first time. But from then I really trust in Paypal, as they were REALLY on my side and solved the issue.

Just as a memo. I wish to recall, that how many topics are here, in which our fellow sellers compaints about such scambags who stole their money, because they told, that they didn't get their watches. And even our members had evidences, PP not payed their money, but refunded the price to the thief's. So honestly, I've never heard such an easy to prove fraud, so I can't imagine what can cause a non-refund issue for PP.

And yes, you are right in your above thought. If he would post you a fake Rolex, and the customs would declare that as original, then you would have been a real hard way to try to prove that it is not you, who wants to cheat. But this way? It's a piece of cake

[77T]

Originally Posted by schnipples24

Based on what you said previously I believe it's best to start with a PayPal claim, no? Because you said if I file CC first then I can't file PP claim. My logic is file PP claim, wait 10 days hoping they resolve it and give me the money back. If they don't, then I can go through CC claim. Does that sound right? Thanks.

Please read all of your contract with PayPal as the buyer and PayPal guarantees.

As for sequencing, that will depend upon your understanding of the terms and conditions. I cited only a small portion of the agreement dealing with credit cards.

My idea of a sequence is based on what I would do - in fact what I have done before. But you should do what you believe is right for you.


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[INC]

^^+1

[ColoradoTime]

Man...I hate these stories. Praying you get your funds back. So unnecessarily stressful and ruins what should have otherwise been awesome. Good luck!

[dhucke]

A while back I posted on here asking if anyone had done business with Sofodot. No on responded so I moved on. Now I guess we all know.

I am so sorry about this

[schnipples24]

Thanks everyone. The fact he was willing to accept PayPal G&S really had me lower my guard. He sent me a video of the watch tagged with my username. Should have went with my gut.
- as of now I'm waiting for paypal to decide on the matter. I've submitted all the corresponding evidence. Hopefully they see this as a clear cut case of fraud and have no issue with refunding me my money. I've used PayPal for probably a decade now with countless high dollar deals. This is what I've paid all the fees over the years for, hopefully there aren't any issues.

[Modiferous]

Originally Posted by schnipples24

This is the type of advice I'm looking for, thanks. Should I file it at the local precinct? Would I need to go in person to do it, or could I do it via the phone? Thx

In the U.S. when a crime occurs you may always file it at your local police department closest to where you live, and they will forward the case to the jurisdiction where it happened.

Or you may file it where the crime happened - with some police departments (for some crimes, some police departments will not accept a report period unless you live in their jurisdiction).

No matter where filed, most police departments will not allow you to file a crime where over a certain dollar amount is involved, typically over > $5000., except in person. Exceptions for filing online for an over > $5000. matter are made by some police departments if you don't live where the crime occurred, assuming they will allow you to file in the first place if you don't live there.

Sometimes credit card companies or credit bureaus will accept only an in person filed police report. For this matter you describe, you might want to be careful about the type of report you file. If you may somehow make it fall under the guise of identity theft, which even someone stealing your credit card and using it is identity theft, then the credit card companies and credit bureaus must by law accept what happened and reverse the charges and keep it off your credit reports. I am not sure though if what happened here is exactly identity theft but then it isn't exactly a dispute over quality of goods either.


As far as PayPal, I'd think that here your premise is a "significantly not as described" dispute. I believe you paid via a regular payment for goods or services not "friends and family" direct payment.

Did you pay with your PayPal or bank account balance or via credit or debit card? I know you said you paid via credit card but PayPal doesn't always accept that dollar amount for a credit card payment.


Probably what happened here is the scammer got your money into his bank account and closed up the account and absconded with the loot, leaving PayPal holding the bag. It's something he can do to only one victim...at a time. Given the situation in Ukraine I doubt he's worried about repercussions.

[PT_91]

Originally Posted by schnipples24

This is what I've paid all the fees over the years for...

Sorry, but you're wrong here. I'm sure PayPal doesn't accumulate fees in order to take care of people who aren't careful enough.

This being said, what's been done to you is disgusting and I hope that you will get your money back one way or another, preferably by having the one who scammed you pay for the harm they've done.

[schnipples24]

Originally Posted by PT_91

Sorry, but you're wrong here. I'm sure PayPal doesn't accumulate fees in order to take care of people who aren't careful enough.

This being said, what's been done to you is disgusting and I hope that you will get your money back one way or another, preferably by having the one who scammed you pay for the harm they've done.

Oh I absolutely understand that paying fees isn't like paying an insurance premium. Just stating that they should view me as a valued customer with many deals $5k+ over the last ten years and see that this is my first claim.

[PT_91]

Originally Posted by schnipples24

Oh I absolutely understand that paying fees isn't like paying an insurance premium. Just stating that they should view me as a valued customer with many deals $5k+ over the last ten years and see that this is my first claim.

Agree 100%. Fingers crossed for you to get your money back AND eventually also the watch you desire!

[joli160]

Oldest trick in the book. Way below market value to lure you in.

I always check the corruption index before dealing internationally which gives some very generalizing idea of morality.
One of indicators that I am reluctant to visit certain countries but certainly will never transfer money to in advance.

Hope PP will help you.

[GolfJunkie]

Any update here?

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by joli160

I always check the corruption index before dealing internationally which gives some very generalizing idea of morality.

This is so correct. Who doesn’t do this? Some people just are not all that careful with their money. Which I guess is they’re prerogative.


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[INC]

Originally Posted by joli160

I always check the corruption index before dealing internationally which gives some very generalizing idea of morality.

I'm sorry to say, but you are all wrong, if you believe in that propaganda. Search for US on that super-fake list for example...

[EEpro]

Rolex BLRO is not a $14.5k watch. It sells used for $4,000 more than that. A scammer could just sell it to DavidSW or even eBay it instead of selling to you for under market price. That's the first clue.

Good luck to you. Sorry this happened. You buy the seller not the watch next time.

[wesdaniel]

Several years ago, I ordered some merchandise (>$500 and <$1000) and, what I received was not what I ordered (ordered electronics and received stuffed animals).

By the time I filed by PP G&S claim, the company that had sold the goods was long gone and had absconded with the money from thousands of customers.

PayPal refunded me in full. I'm pretty certain that PP either self-insures for this type of thing or has a third-party insurance policy.

I also operate a couple of businesses that take PayPal. When I receive funds that are abnormal, PP holds those funds for approximately 10 days before releasing them to me and, if I want them released sooner, I have to ask the customer to go into PP and acknowledge receipt to have it released.

Whether PP gets the money from the scammer or pays you directly will all depend on the length of time from payment to the claim being filed vs. length of time from payment to PP releasing the funds. But, I think that PP will ultimately make it right - especially with the stack of evidence that you have.

OP, please update us - it's been crickets for the past two weeks and I'd love to know status.

[schnipples24]

Alright update time:

As of this morning, PayPal ruled in my favor and issued me a full refund, no questions asked. I don't need to send anything back, I should see the credit back to my card within 30 days.

- for all the people talking about a BLRO for $14k, ill try to explain my logic.
The watch was listed for sale and sat for over a month at $16k. To me this indicated that there wasn't much interest at that price point for buying a watch from ukraine, and when I offered $14.5k, he accepted it because he purchased at retail and would still make a decent profit, and I'd have to wait a decent amount.
- he sent me a video of the watch with my username tagged, so he definitely had a BLRO in his posession.
- he was willing to accept PayPal.
That was my thought process. I will admit I was blinded by money, and moving forward I will always listen to my gut now. I've been buying/selling for 10 years and this is the second time I've had issues. Luckily I paid with PayPal, and was able to recoup my money.
- I am still perplexed by what this scammer was trying to achieve. They sent me books and listed it $50 value on the forms. If he had two braincells to rub together he would've sent me some fugazi watch and filled out a legitimate customs forms. PayPal was obviously going to refund my money. Lesson learned.

[INC]

Originally Posted by schnipples24

As of this morning, PayPal ruled in my favor and issued me a full refund, no questions asked.

[wesdaniel]

Originally Posted by schnipples24

Alright update time:

As of this morning, PayPal ruled in my favor and issued me a full refund, no questions asked. I don't need to send anything back, I should see the credit back to my card within 30 days.

- for all the people talking about a BLRO for $14k, ill try to explain my logic.
The watch was listed for sale and sat for over a month at $16k. To me this indicated that there wasn't much interest at that price point for buying a watch from ukraine, and when I offered $14.5k, he accepted it because he purchased at retail and would still make a decent profit, and I'd have to wait a decent amount.
- he sent me a video of the watch with my username tagged, so he definitely had a BLRO in his posession.
- he was willing to accept PayPal.
That was my thought process. I will admit I was blinded by money, and moving forward I will always listen to my gut now. I've been buying/selling for 10 years and this is the second time I've had issues. Luckily I paid with PayPal, and was able to recoup my money.
- I am still perplexed by what this scammer was trying to achieve. They sent me books and listed it $50 value on the forms. If he had two braincells to rub together he would've sent me some fugazi watch and filled out a legitimate customs forms. PayPal was obviously going to refund my money. Lesson learned.

Glad to hear that this is progressing in your favor.

Do be aware that, if PayPal was able to successfully freeze funds in the seller's account, the seller can file an appeal which could delay the return of funds.

My guess is that the seller has long absconded with the funds and that the funds you are getting will be coming from PayPal or their insurance and not from the seller.