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10 November 2011, 11:57 PM
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#31 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
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Buddy Orchi - I have a little french and I would say the literal translation is...
"To his co workers" (collaborators/ Team mates/ etc) Perhaps it was handed out to a chosen few after completing 25 years of service. |
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10 November 2011, 11:59 PM
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#32 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Real Name: Jeremy
Location: Louisiana
Watch: Rolex
Posts: 2,732
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Very interesting piece. Unfortunately I have no information but would love to know. Thanks for sharing nonetheless.
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As a man is, so he sees. As the eye is formed, such are its powers. William Blake |
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11 November 2011, 02:46 AM
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#33 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Real Name: François
Location: France
Posts: 169
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Hi
Du latin collaborare des mots latins cum (« avec ») et laborare (« travailler »), avec le suffixe -ateur. The Boss says "Employés" if he has something negative to observe and "collaborateurs" if he wants to compliment. Regards |
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11 November 2011, 04:01 AM
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#34 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Montreal
Watch: The Habs pick 1st!
Posts: 3,589
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Francois - great contribution!
Orchi, i would be very careful with this watch. its too easy to fake this sort of modification without some form of explanation from the person who received it. while it may be entirely genuine, there are things about it i would consider before paying a premium. it does seem like a 25 year service watch... but doesnt have the name of the employee? it also has the company's founder rather than the company name. hans died in1960, but i would be very careful with this piece. the engraving of the words in date and 'collaborateurs' is in a font i would expect. i am a silver collector and this is what we often see from this time period. in fact, the silver that i collect is often presentation pieces (Poul Petersen - the maker of Hockey's Stanley Cup). however, on this watch, the name Hans Wildorf is in a strange font that i rarely see in presentation pieces. i have no reason to question its authenticity, but you need to address these concerns with Seller before agreeing to pay big bux for this sort of thing. |
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11 November 2011, 04:03 AM
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#35 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Montreal
Watch: The Habs pick 1st!
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Poor Adrian / Oinkett.
i read his posts in this thread. i think he needs to rethink his 'freedom of speech' position in context of a place where he is a GUEST. another good rule of thumb in life, if you are aware you MAY have offended someone, best to apologize. you never look bad. |
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11 November 2011, 04:31 AM
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#36 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Real Name: tom
Location: northern ireland
Watch: my fins
Posts: 10,063
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never write anything you wouldnt say to someones face ,,, and never say something to anyone that you wouldnt say to your granny....
or so i was always told , that aside , would rolex be able to help if you contacted their staff or personell dept , they may know something. |
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11 November 2011, 04:37 AM
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#37 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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from what i see and hear about rolex, i would be surprised if they were even remotely very helpful. i think they are too busy working on rules to dispose of vintage parts and control their output.
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11 November 2011, 05:05 AM
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#38 | |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
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Quote:
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11 November 2011, 05:16 AM
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#39 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kingstown
Posts: 58,281
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Quote:
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11 November 2011, 05:54 AM
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#40 |
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malaysia
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Err Buddies...thanks again for your generous feedbacks...
 IF the theory of the watch being a 25 years long service award is true... the intended original recipient of this watch... would have retired from Rolex by the age of 55... 54 years ago in 1957. Then the gentleman would have lived to the age of 109...by now. But IF he didn't live that long... Orchi wonders if he could have sold...or lost the watch... or given it to someone before him...  What would be the chance of Rolex finding any records... of their past retired employees... or perhaps Rolex still keeps the contact records of the family members... of their past retired employees...? Buddy Harry...Orchi believes this watch... having the S/nos. engraved by factory inside of its Caseback... was amongst a special batch... of Ref 6611B made by Rolex back then... for someone or some special party. Irrespective of whether or not...the CB engravings is true... this is still quite a special watch...  Having that said...Orchi believes the CB engravings could be true... but this has to wait until the watch arrives n Orchi checks it closely enough... |
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11 November 2011, 06:04 AM
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#41 |
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Banned
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Location: Kingstown
Posts: 58,281
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Did Orchi purchase this watch or is Orchi just inspecting it?
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11 November 2011, 06:08 AM
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#42 | |
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Banned
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Location: Malaysia
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Quote:
your advise is very helpful indeed... Over here..."Collaborators" in England... is usually spoken with a negative tone...instead. |
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11 November 2011, 06:17 AM
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#43 | |
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Banned
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Location: Malaysia
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Quote:
When the watch comes... it will be checked thoroughly... before making the right decision...
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11 November 2011, 06:54 AM
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#44 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: mel(oz)/Yorks(uk)
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As I mentioned earlier, without provenance ... Which can take many forms ... It has to be treated with suspicion ... And it impossIble to make big leaps of what it may signify without first being able to substantiate it's autheticity ( engraving that is )
The engraving does not look in house to me .. Which surely it would be if it came from wilsdorf ... The abscence of the engravers marker hole , the 3 digits in the back in 57 ? I'm away at the mo so can't pull scans to check but from memory certainly 54 issues watches had full serials in ... 56/57 mils I can think of ( from memory admittedly) don't have any serials ... And in my heads three digit format is a sixties thing I'd suggest looking at the 58 FAP 6238's ... See what they have and look at there engraving both in and out of the back I would suggest that it's all good fun ... As long as no one tries to add a premium for the caseback engraving. |
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11 November 2011, 09:29 AM
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#45 | |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Shanghai
Watch: Too many to tell
Posts: 522
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François is spot-on on the translation. It is interesting that the sentence says " À SES Collabotareurs". The fact that "SES" is used implies that more than one watch was given out to more than one person, at the same time. Nit would otherwise state "À SON Collaborateur". Kind of group celebration or the sentence would not be as such.
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11 November 2011, 10:33 AM
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#46 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 2,934
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Quote:
It goes to add further support to Orchi's belief... that the CB engravings would likely be correct n original... Lets consider for a minute the possibility of faking the CB engravings... Would it include such elaboration of meaning in the exact words... or details that were intended to be used for the engravings...?? Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just say..."A GIFT FROM HANS WILSDORF... TO MR. JOHN DOE or JANE DOE... FOR HIS EXCELLENCE IN SERVICE FOR 25 YEARS TO ROLEX..." or something crazy like that...in French??  Why would anyone go to that length... n NOT include the name of the recipient in the engravings...?? Wouldn't that be better if it was intended to "add" value to the watch...?? Why not use "Collaborateur"...to make it more "special" as the ONLY award... instead of using "Collaborateur(S) in Plural sense... which would then means more than one party were getting these watches... from Mr. Hans Wilsdorf intended for the honourary award... at the time. 
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11 November 2011, 02:29 PM
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#47 | |
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Quote:
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 Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. ~Abraham Lincoln Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of a bike ride. ~John F. Kennedy ROLEXploitation - yeah I'm a victim |
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11 November 2011, 02:55 PM
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#48 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Also I don't see how the point is valid because some others may have found interest in the original post to this thread. At the end of the day it is just unacceptable abuse, which some forums may abide but it is not acceptable here.
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Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. ~Abraham Lincoln Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of a bike ride. ~John F. Kennedy ROLEXploitation - yeah I'm a victim |
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11 November 2011, 03:13 PM
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#49 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 130
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Rolex introduced the first self-winding (automatic) watch movement in 1932. See: http://www.melrosejewelers.com/histo...ch-company.htm
Maybe this watch has something to do with that milestone. |
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11 November 2011, 04:26 PM
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#50 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: mel(oz)/Yorks(uk)
Posts: 1,917
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My point was not in regard to usIng a swear word ... My point was that having lived here for two years , one of the main characteristics I've noted is that Australians say it how they see it, honestly ( directly and to the point ...it's a trait that is much noted and discussed by emigree's.
And as to the second, my observation was merely that if a post is made and two days later, despite the obvious number of French speakers present not a sIngle response is given ... The supposition that no one cares enough About the subject matter to bother to respond ... Seems valid. |
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11 November 2011, 04:55 PM
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#51 |
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Facilitator
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There may well be a number of reasons why there may be a lack of responsiveness to a post including the notion that members do not wish to get in the subject of abuse and given the profanity raised at an early stage it would be no surprise that other members did not wish to be the target of abuse.
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Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. ~Abraham Lincoln Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of a bike ride. ~John F. Kennedy ROLEXploitation - yeah I'm a victim |
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11 November 2011, 08:30 PM
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#52 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Real Name: François
Location: France
Posts: 169
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The engraved sentence would go well for " one" gift offered to a group which is not possible for a watch.
It sounds a bit too generic for watches personally given to individuals. But we also have to consider that people in the past were, like us, not always at the top level all the time. Regards |
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11 November 2011, 10:12 PM
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#53 | |
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TRF Moderator & 2024 DATE-JUST41 Patron
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Quote:
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 SPEM SUCCESSUS ALIT |
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11 November 2011, 11:41 PM
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#54 | |
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Banned
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Location: Malaysia
Posts: 2,934
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Quote:
From your many years of traveling, attending watch shows...auctions... n listening to many experts talked for long hours about Vintage Rolex watches... have you seen or heard such a rear CB engraving... specifically with "H.WILSDORF" on a Vintage Rolex...? Also... are you sure "56/57 mils don't have S/nos. engraved inside CB cover"...?  Maybe you have also discussed in length with some of the best n renown... experts in Italy regarding Vintage Rolex... Have they not published this pic showing the particular CB engraving... on a Vintage Rolex watch...? Do you notice too...the absence of engraver marker hole...?   Also...are you sure... a 3 last digits of S/nos. engraving inside the CB cover... is for 60s watches...only?  Please advise...TQ. |
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11 November 2011, 11:49 PM
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#55 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Stockholm
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Forgive a stupid question but what is the engravers marker hole??
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12 November 2011, 12:01 AM
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#56 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Real Name: Paul
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Quote:
Quote:
It's not clever.
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..33 |
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12 November 2011, 12:05 AM
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#57 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 2,934
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Quote:
Orchi shall post to you what is the meaning of...engraver marker hole... From pics courtesy of Stefano Mazzariol... You will notice a tiny hole drilled between the CB thread teeth... next to the engraved or stamped alphabet "S" of "OYSTER"...   This hole is referred to the...engraver marker hole...by Buddy Jedly. Most Rolex CB with STAMPING marks done by Rolex factory... would have this engraver marker hole... (DRSD...COMEX...FAP Peruvian Air Force...Asprey...etc etc.) From Orchi's novice observation...the rear CB markings... (which were required to be stamped like in the DRSD n Comex examples)... that were stamped by machine...by Rolex... would have this tiny hole...or "engraver marker hole"... It is said to be the hole for alignment purpose or marking... Those CB with "engraving" marks or signature done by some kind of manual assisted... or guided tool NOT intended to be in precision... might not have the...tiny hole...perhaps... 
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12 November 2011, 12:33 AM
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#58 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 2,934
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Quote:
"engraver marker hole..." found on the CB of a RARE 1680 Sub... with Middle East Arabic engraving signature... which is said to mean..."...Armed Forces..." or "Al-Kluwet Al-Musalaha..." or something like that...      
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12 November 2011, 12:58 AM
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#59 |
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"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Stockholm
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There would be no engraver marker hole on a 18k hand engraved CB because the CB would be mounted in pitch in an engravers ball. In my experience most people prefer hand engraving as opposed to machine engraving when a personal message or sentiment is being expressed.
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12 November 2011, 01:09 AM
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#60 |
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Banned
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Err Buddy Jedly...please permit Orchi to ask you...
how in the SAME year... SAME production period... with the SAME batch of production... these 2 similar pieces of 1665... are seen to have DIFFERENT engraving marks of S/nos. inside of CB... n whilst this one is engraved with Full S/nos...? (5 initial digits shown...n 2 last digits partially hidden)  BUT this other one is engraved with ONLY the 3 last remaining digits of the S/nos....?  Could you be kinder n possibly explain...? Thanks in advance... 
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