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kans86 · 12 July 2019, 03:20 PM

I am being offered a PP 5167A 001 without original paper but was serviced by PP this year. Asked 30k. I am not following PP markets so could anyone here say if this is a good deal? Thanks

WatchLurv · 12 July 2019, 03:31 PM

I would never get a watch without papers. How do you make that go missing?

30K is a fair deal since prices go for 40K with papers.

Tom808 · 12 July 2019, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WatchLurv

I would never get a watch without papers. How do you make that go missing?

30K is a fair deal since prices go for 40K with papers.

Wow. 40k with papers. What about bnib with papers?

Sent from my SM-J810M using Tapatalk

GB-man · 12 July 2019, 04:09 PM

One without papers was asking 26k here back in March. Most were pricing them full set around 28-32k until recently some dealers are fishing for much more.

In today’s market that’s a fair price. Crazy but true.

kans86 · 12 July 2019, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WatchLurv

I would never get a watch without papers. How do you make that go missing?

30K is a fair deal since prices go for 40K with papers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom808

Wow. 40k with papers. What about bnib with papers?

Sent from my SM-J810M using Tapatalk

Quote:

Originally Posted by GB-man

One without papers was asking 26k here back in March. Most were pricing them full set around 28-32k until recently some dealers are fishing for much more.

In today’s market that’s a fair price. Crazy but true.

Thanks.

Does service history by PP have any meaning here? I read that PP can issue archive paper at a fee.

watchbowl · 12 July 2019, 05:17 PM

Are we talking euros or dollars?

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kans86 · 12 July 2019, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchbowl

are we talking euros or dollars?

Sent from my iphone using tapatalk

usd

Token74 · 12 July 2019, 05:21 PM

Seems like a good deal to me.

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Flex368 · 12 July 2019, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchbowl

Are we talking euros or dollars?

Doesn´t matter as it´s too much anyway.

It´s a great watch and probably the one in my collection I wear the most but I´d never pay a price like this for it - not even new from AD with papers.

Pimpsy · 12 July 2019, 05:30 PM

Who buys a Patek and "loses" the papers???

I wouldn't buy a high end watch without papers unless an AD was all but giving it away with assurances that it wasn't stolen.

Pateks · 12 July 2019, 05:50 PM

No papers. No purchase for me either.

goog53 · 12 July 2019, 06:07 PM

No papers no deal

Fat_ninja · 12 July 2019, 06:51 PM

You can get an extract if it’s real. It cost about 160 or so. And I believe you can only request it 3 or 5 years after the original sale. Cant remember time exactly

ts3 · 12 July 2019, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

You can get an extract if it’s real. It cost about 160 or so. And I believe you can only request it 3 or 5 years after the original sale. Cant remember time exactly

This no doubt comes from a guy who is allowed to buy new only...

There is tons of vintage pieces w recent extracts which seems to indicate there is no time limit. The OP should at least get a new extract to provide comfort that the piece has not been stolen... Personally I would stay away from any modern Patek w/o papers...

Fat_ninja · 12 July 2019, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ts3

This no doubt comes from a guy who is allowed to buy new only...

There is tons of vintage pieces w recent extracts and I would at least get a new extract to provide comfort that the piece has not been stolen...

Remember the kids daily is a 4700 :)
Wife wasn’t thrilled but it’s a baby nautilus for the kid...

Kittayos · 12 July 2019, 07:30 PM

The extract is only available after 5 years. But when you requested it, you would need to pay around $150 and there is no refund if the watch is less than 5 years old. That's the case a Patek service center here told me.

kans86 · 12 July 2019, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Token74

Seems like a good deal to me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flex368

Doesn´t matter as it´s too much anyway.

It´s a great watch and probably the one in my collection I wear the most but I´d never pay a price like this for it - not even new from AD with papers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pimpsy

Who buys a Patek and "loses" the papers???

I wouldn't buy a high end watch without papers unless an AD was all but giving it away with assurances that it wasn't stolen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pateks

No papers. No purchase for me either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goog53

No papers no deal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

You can get an extract if it’s real. It cost about 160 or so. And I believe you can only request it 3 or 5 years after the original sale. Cant remember time exactly

Quote:

Originally Posted by ts3

This no doubt comes from a guy who is allowed to buy new only...

There is tons of vintage pieces w recent extracts which seems to indicate there is no time limit. The OP should at least get a new extract to provide comfort that the piece has not been stolen... Personally I would stay away from any modern Patek w/o papers...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

Remember the kids daily is a 4700 :)
Wife wasn’t thrilled but it’s a baby nautilus for the kid...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kittayos

The extract is only available after 5 years. But when you requested it, you would need to pay around $150 and there is no refund if the watch is less than 5 years old. That's the case a Patek service center here told me.

Appreciate your responses.

I am going to my local AD this weekend to see if they can be of any help.

bob101 · 12 July 2019, 07:41 PM

Not so bad if they have the service papers and offer to pay for the extract from Geneva for you. Personally not so concerned about no papers if buying a used watch.

Hendrikus · 12 July 2019, 08:07 PM

I think people should not be so relaxed about buying without papers. It is not a question of whether the watch is real (for present purposes assuming it is), but that one runs the risk of a 'tracing' claim from a potential owner who had the watch stolen, or from an insurance company who had paid out on the stolen watch. Yes, you in turn would then have a claim against whomever sold you the watch, but do you want that risk? At the very least, be sure the seller is "good for the money" if you ever need to sue them.

I struggle to understand why anyone would lose the papers on their virtually new 5167A. Surely any normal human being leaves the papers in the box once they purchase the watch? To me this says the box has been purchased aftermarket, and the watch was purchased as a stand alone. But why?

Not for me.

As an aside, was offered this morning £30,000 on my full set 5167A as a trade in.

ts3 · 12 July 2019, 08:39 PM

Agree but would add that even buying w papers does not provide 100% certainty a watch wasn't stolen. People often store their watches together w the papers and make it easy for thieves to pick up both in one go...

Hendrikus · 12 July 2019, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ts3

Agree but would add that even buying w papers does not provide 100% certainty a watch wasn't stolen. People often store their watches together w the papers and make it easy for thieves to pick up both in one go...

True, I suppose that must be right. But statistically, I guess it must be accurate to say that a watch sold without papers is more likely to be a stolen watch than one with papers. So one is increasing the chances of a tracing claim by the owner/insurance company. I guess if you are purchasing from an established dealer with a track record, you can be comfortable that you would be able to get a refund/sue. I would be very nervous buying online or from an unknown dealer.

jay_kay · 12 July 2019, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hendrikus

As an aside, was offered this morning £30,000 on my full set 5167A as a trade in.

It is mad what greys are currently offering for 5167A's. Maybe they know something more than we do? It's always very tempting to trade against PM models which I would have never dreamed of owning.

Codik · 12 July 2019, 09:30 PM

No papers, not buying.

I have been that way since the datejust my parents gave me for my 18th was stolen.

There would be no watch theft without a market for people willing to buy watches that may have been stolen (eg without papers or other proof it was not stolen).

Sailman · 12 July 2019, 09:48 PM

I requested and received papers on my 1968 PP about 10 years ago.

Fat_ninja · 12 July 2019, 09:54 PM

OP are u buying from a store? If so I’d be surprised that the watch was stolen.

kans86 · 12 July 2019, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hendrikus

True, I suppose that must be right. But statistically, I guess it must be accurate to say that a watch sold without papers is more likely to be a stolen watch than one with papers. So one is increasing the chances of a tracing claim by the owner/insurance company. I guess if you are purchasing from an established dealer with a track record, you can be comfortable that you would be able to get a refund/sue. I would be very nervous buying online or from an unknown dealer.

Agree. I purchased several watches without papers though. Most were from dealers but some highly valuable vintage pieces from private with only pieces of hand written papers as receipts. No problems so far. This 5167A is actually from a grey dealer and he offers 1 year guarantee.

kans86 · 12 July 2019, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

OP are u buying from a store? If so I’d be surprised that the watch was stolen.

From a grey dealer with 1 year guarantee.

bonsai-man · 12 July 2019, 10:08 PM

No papers, no sale for me as well, only exception being sought after, discounted models with 20+ vintage.

It's OK recommending buying with an extract, from a trusted seller (with references) or reputable store, but if you need to sell without papers in future as a private seller be prepared to offer massive discounts, it will be a fire sale.

Fat_ninja · 12 July 2019, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kans86

From a grey dealer with 1 year guarantee.

If it was me ... make sure the watch is in great condition. Buy it take it to patek ask them to double check it and make sure it’s a real watch. And get an extract from the archive.

Grey dealers need to fill out forms that the watch was not stolen when they acquire pieces...it’s the law in the US. I don’t know else where

The watch will always sell at a discount to one with papers. If that is not a concern then it’s not a big deal.

beshannon · 12 July 2019, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kans86

I am being offered a PP 5167A 001 without original paper but was serviced by PP this year. Asked 30k. I am not following PP markets so could anyone here say if this is a good deal? Thanks

Have you at least seen the service paperwork?

12 July 2019, 03:20 PM	#1
kans86 "TRF" Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Berlin Posts: 1,340	5167A without paper deal I am being offered a PP 5167A 001 without original paper but was serviced by PP this year. Asked 30k. I am not following PP markets so could anyone here say if this is a good deal? Thanks

12 July 2019, 04:09 PM	#4
GB-man 2024 Pledge Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: USA Watch: addiction issues Posts: 36,859	One without papers was asking 26k here back in March. Most were pricing them full set around 28-32k until recently some dealers are fishing for much more. In today’s market that’s a fair price. Crazy but true. __________________

12 July 2019, 05:21 PM	#8
Token74 "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Real Name: Vince Location: England Watch: Too many! Posts: 5,707	Seems like a good deal to me. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk __________________ Time is limited, make every second count. Patek Philippe Nautilus 5990 - AP Royal Oak 15300 - AP Royal Oak 15450 Blue - AP Royal Oak 15450 Silver - AP Royal Oak Offshore 26480 - Royal Oak Offshore 15710 - Rolex Sea Dweller 116600 - Rolex Daytona 116519 - Rolex GMT 126710 BLRO - Omega Speedmaster Reduced - JLC Reverso GMT Moonphase - TAG Microtimer - Dent Pocket Watch - JLC Atmos Phases de lune

12 July 2019, 06:07 PM	#12
goog53 "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Real Name: Mike G Location: Ohio Watch: Rolex-Patek-AP Posts: 3,060	No papers no deal __________________ The only thing better than the watches are the people behind them. "The best watch in the world is the one that's on your wrist." Morgan King "Do you like having a good time? Then you need a good watch!" Rocky Balboa

12 July 2019, 08:07 PM	#19
Hendrikus 2024 Pledge Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: Norfolk, UK Watch: All of them... Posts: 797	I think people should not be so relaxed about buying without papers. It is not a question of whether the watch is real (for present purposes assuming it is), but that one runs the risk of a 'tracing' claim from a potential owner who had the watch stolen, or from an insurance company who had paid out on the stolen watch. Yes, you in turn would then have a claim against whomever sold you the watch, but do you want that risk? At the very least, be sure the seller is "good for the money" if you ever need to sue them. I struggle to understand why anyone would lose the papers on their virtually new 5167A. Surely any normal human being leaves the papers in the box once they purchase the watch? To me this says the box has been purchased aftermarket, and the watch was purchased as a stand alone. But why? Not for me. As an aside, was offered this morning £30,000 on my full set 5167A as a trade in. __________________ A collector of Rolex, Patek, Vacheron, JLC and Cartier

12 July 2019, 03:31 PM	#2
WatchLurv Banned Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Moon Watch: Swiss Posts: 2,270	I would never get a watch without papers. How do you make that go missing? 30K is a fair deal since prices go for 40K with papers.

12 July 2019, 05:17 PM	#6
watchbowl "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: U.K. Posts: 469	Are we talking euros or dollars? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12 July 2019, 05:30 PM	#10
Pimpsy "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: New Jersey Watch: PP 5712/1A Posts: 518	Who buys a Patek and "loses" the papers??? I wouldn't buy a high end watch without papers unless an AD was all but giving it away with assurances that it wasn't stolen.

12 July 2019, 05:50 PM	#11
Pateks Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: USA Posts: 327	No papers. No purchase for me either.

12 July 2019, 06:51 PM	#13
Fat_ninja Banned Join Date: May 2018 Real Name: Jonathan Location: USA Watch: P-01 Posts: 11,772	You can get an extract if it’s real. It cost about 160 or so. And I believe you can only request it 3 or 5 years after the original sale. Cant remember time exactly

12 July 2019, 07:30 PM	#16
Kittayos "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Bkk Posts: 309	The extract is only available after 5 years. But when you requested it, you would need to pay around $150 and there is no refund if the watch is less than 5 years old. That's the case a Patek service center here told me.

12 July 2019, 07:41 PM	#18
bob101 "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 559	Not so bad if they have the service papers and offer to pay for the extract from Geneva for you. Personally not so concerned about no papers if buying a used watch.

12 July 2019, 08:39 PM	#20
ts3 "TRF" Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Europe Posts: 3,235	Agree but would add that even buying w papers does not provide 100% certainty a watch wasn't stolen. People often store their watches together w the papers and make it easy for thieves to pick up both in one go...

12 July 2019, 09:30 PM	#23
Codik "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: UK Posts: 284	No papers, not buying. I have been that way since the datejust my parents gave me for my 18th was stolen. There would be no watch theft without a market for people willing to buy watches that may have been stolen (eg without papers or other proof it was not stolen).

12 July 2019, 09:48 PM	#24
Sailman "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 115	I requested and received papers on my 1968 PP about 10 years ago.

12 July 2019, 09:54 PM	#25
Fat_ninja Banned Join Date: May 2018 Real Name: Jonathan Location: USA Watch: P-01 Posts: 11,772	OP are u buying from a store? If so I’d be surprised that the watch was stolen.

12 July 2019, 10:08 PM	#28
bonsai-man "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 727	No papers, no sale for me as well, only exception being sought after, discounted models with 20+ vintage. It's OK recommending buying with an extract, from a trusted seller (with references) or reputable store, but if you need to sell without papers in future as a private seller be prepared to offer massive discounts, it will be a fire sale.

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