5167A without paper deal

[kans86]

Originally Posted by bonsai-man

No papers, no sale for me as well, only exception being sought after, discounted models with 20+ vintage.

It's OK recommending buying with an extract, from a trusted seller (with references) or reputable store, but if you need to sell without papers in future as a private seller be prepared to offer massive discounts, it will be a fire sale.

How do papers usually affect used PP prices? Rolex watches without papers could go 20% off. If this applies for PP, and with going prices for 5167A at 37-38k, then 30k for this one without papers would be fair.

[Codik]

Why do people say watches from dealers are not stolen? How would the dealer know, unless he has seen papers or a purchase receipt.
Apparently the dealer has to sign a form saying it’s not stolen - but how would they know?

[Aquaman]

Originally Posted by Codik

Why do people say watches from dealers are not stolen? How would the dealer know, unless he has seen papers or a purchase receipt.
Apparently the dealer has to sign a form saying it’s not stolen - but how would they know?

There is a database where you can check etc

And I'm sure if you had a high value watch you would report it stolen

But I'm also sure some greys couldn't care less

Id personally would like all documents etc

[V25V]

Originally Posted by WatchLurv

How do you make that go missing?

I will never understand this either.

[CamSLC]

I'd be more interested if it already had extracts.

Seems like whoever loses their original certs, also doesn't have a clue what the watch is worth when they trade it in.

[jay_kay]

On a side note to this, I bought my 5167 new and unworn from a grey dealer well before the prices have got to where they are now but still a decent amount higher than rrp.

As soon as I received it, I registered it with Patek and started enjoying the magazine they supply. Last month I got a call from the grey dealer asking me if I had sold the watch?

I told them I hadn't and the story unfurled that the original buyer of the watch had an amazing relationship with the AD from where the watch came had contacted him saying that someone had been in touch authenticating a 5167A that was originally sold by them and that they only sold 1 in 2017 that it had to be his so his relationship is now in the gutter.

I wonder whether PP notified the AD after its change of owner came through? I can certainly guarantee I haven't been in to ask at the AD even though it is my nearest one.

It does make me wonder how many lucky PP AD buyers will be soon bottom of or even off the list altogether for any other models as the pieces with hefty premium start needing service etc?

[watchbowl]

Originally Posted by Hendrikus

I think people should not be so relaxed about buying without papers. It is not a question of whether the watch is real (for present purposes assuming it is), but that one runs the risk of a 'tracing' claim from a potential owner who had the watch stolen, or from an insurance company who had paid out on the stolen watch. Yes, you in turn would then have a claim against whomever sold you the watch, but do you want that risk? At the very least, be sure the seller is "good for the money" if you ever need to sue them.

I struggle to understand why anyone would lose the papers on their virtually new 5167A. Surely any normal human being leaves the papers in the box once they purchase the watch? To me this says the box has been purchased aftermarket, and the watch was purchased as a stand alone. But why?

Not for me.

As an aside, was offered this morning £30,000 on my full set 5167A as a trade in.

Jesus £30k. Did you get a cash price as well?



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[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by kans86

How do papers usually affect used PP prices? Rolex watches without papers could go 20% off. If this applies for PP, and with going prices for 5167A at 37-38k, then 30k for this one without papers would be fair.

My rational is this, while Patek Phillipe are mass produced just like Rolex they are produced in significantly lower numbers at a much higher price point. While the average Rolex buyer is typically looking to drop $10 – 20K on a SS Rolex, they have thousands available worldwide with or without B&P. The PP market is much smaller, even at $40 – 50K the 5167/1a is a basic entry level piece for the average PP buyer, the cost is not a factor to most either. The Patek Philippe SS sport watches are available, just not new at AD’s and most pre-owned will have B&P.

I am not saying an un-papered 5167/1a will not sell, but to most PP buyers looking for a 5167/1a a saving of $10,000 is lunch money. Why would they even bother scratching round at the bottom end of the grey market if they can easily get a good condition, preowned full set for $35 -45,000. Someone stretching on a tight budget may consider a paperless 5167/1a, but most Patek Philippe buyers will probably just skip it, making it a harder sale at a lower cost to a much smaller group of buyers. Please don’t take this as gospel, this is just my frank assessment of the situation as I see it. Personally, I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole, like many who already answered on this thread before me, which kind of proves my point to some extent.

[Calatrava r]

If PP serviced the watch and you have a copy of the service invoice showing exactly what was done, the watch is probably not stolen as any watch reported stolen to PP which turns up for service is returned to the proper owner.

Some people do not want the watch sold with their name and address on the CO and delete it from the sale, even if it lowers the sale price.

[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by jay_kay

On a side note to this, I bought my 5167 new and unworn from a grey dealer well before the prices have got to where they are now but still a decent amount higher than rrp.

As soon as I received it, I registered it with Patek and started enjoying the magazine they supply. Last month I got a call from the grey dealer asking me if I had sold the watch?

I told them I hadn't and the story unfurled that the original buyer of the watch had an amazing relationship with the AD from where the watch came had contacted him saying that someone had been in touch authenticating a 5167A that was originally sold by them and that they only sold 1 in 2017 that it had to be his so his relationship is now in the gutter.

I wonder whether PP notified the AD after its change of owner came through? I can certainly guarantee I haven't been in to ask at the AD even though it is my nearest one.

It does make me wonder how many lucky PP AD buyers will be soon bottom of or even off the list altogether for any other models as the pieces with hefty premium start needing service etc?

My understanding is that PP does not collect or record the names of buyers at the point of sale as they respect the privacy of their clientele. Your information is very useful because now we know when a person registers the watch with PP which is easy to do because the form is in the wallet, they in turn share this with the AD. Thank you.

[Sam Philip]

Originally Posted by jay_kay

On a side note to this, I bought my 5167 new and unworn from a grey dealer well before the prices have got to where they are now but still a decent amount higher than rrp.

As soon as I received it, I registered it with Patek and started enjoying the magazine they supply. Last month I got a call from the grey dealer asking me if I had sold the watch?

I told them I hadn't and the story unfurled that the original buyer of the watch had an amazing relationship with the AD from where the watch came had contacted him saying that someone had been in touch authenticating a 5167A that was originally sold by them and that they only sold 1 in 2017 that it had to be his so his relationship is now in the gutter.

I wonder whether PP notified the AD after its change of owner came through? I can certainly guarantee I haven't been in to ask at the AD even though it is my nearest one.

It does make me wonder how many lucky PP AD buyers will be soon bottom of or even off the list altogether for any other models as the pieces with hefty premium start needing service etc?

Rhone normally notify ADs if/when they find out a sought after watch has been sold within 2 years of purchase. However they are very reasonable and they don't mind people selling watches even within 2 years if they know the customer is upgrading to another Patek .

[SL BRABUS]

Regardless paper or without paper.....

If the price is right buy it......

[watchbowl]

Originally Posted by Sam Philip

Rhone normally notify ADs if/when they find out a sought after watch has been sold within 2 years of purchase. However they are very reasonable and they don't mind people selling watches even within 2 years if they know the customer is upgrading to another Patek .

That’s good to know, just need my new Patek to come now!


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[Sam Philip]

Originally Posted by watchbowl

That’s good to know, just need my new Patek to come now!


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Once I jokingly asked a Rhone director whether he expected me to keep all the watches I buy and his response was "certainly not"

Hope you get your new watch soon.

[AK797]

I wouldn't buy a PP without box papers.

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by Sam Philip

Rhone normally notify ADs if/when they find out a sought after watch has been sold within 2 years of purchase. However they are very reasonable and they don't mind people selling watches even within 2 years if they know the customer is upgrading to another Patek .

So

1) I can trade up not down. Check
2) I can only sell a watch after the price goes down , check. 5524 lol

[ct.matt]

I bought my 5164A without papers from Swiss Watch Expo, a reputable store in Atlanta, GA. The watch is now registered to me with Patek directly and in 2021 I can get the archive extract. I can't wear the box on my wrist and as long as it has a clean history, I also can't wear the papers... buy the seller and the watch. People keep papers for all sorts of reasons, for all I know the watch used to belong to some celebrity or politican and they didn't want a paper with their name going around

Also if anyone cares, Govberg/watchbox value Patek papers at about 1,000 USD. So expect to pay about a grand less for watch without papers

[ct.matt]

What's more: you can call the HSA in NYC and run serial numbers by them. They can pull up the watch's history and if there are any flags on it

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by Sam Philip

Rhone normally notify ADs if/when they find out a sought after watch has been sold within 2 years of purchase. However they are very reasonable and they don't mind people selling watches even within 2 years if they know the customer is upgrading to another Patek .

I just realized something... if I hate someone, I can go register their watch and pretend like I bought it. PP will think they flipped it. :)

[s14roller]

Originally Posted by ct.matt

Also if anyone cares, Govberg/watchbox value Patek papers at about 1,000 USD. So expect to pay about a grand less for watch without papers

There is zero chance the delta on a complete ss sports patek and incomplete is $1K.

[Bearxj86]

Wait a few years and get extract; should bridge half the gap

[ts3]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

Wait a few years and get extract; should bridge half the gap

A missing certificate of origin can reduce the value by many thousands depending on the model in question... In contrast the extract does not do much in terms of value at all and certainly not bridge half the gap in my experience. You can get it easily and almost for free w/o having to send in your watch. No reason for anybody to pay extra. Rather a reason to stay away altogether if a seller refuses to get it for you.

[Sam Philip]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

I just realized something... if I hate someone, I can go register their watch and pretend like I bought it. PP will think they flipped it. :)

You will need the serial number of the watch

[cascavel]

People throw the box and paperwork away to avoid customs when they cross borders with a new watch. Five years ago, ANYONE could walk into a Patek AD and buy a 5167. I was offered discounts on them. 5980a and even 5711a white dial went begging, like abandoned puppies at a pound. There were a lot of folks who bought Pateks who were not collectors and had no interest in the Certificate Of Origin.
In NYC, a 12" by 12" box is sitting on $2000 of real estate, do you really need it?
Original paperwork on a Patek is worth $5K today, but it wasn't always the case.