Vacheron Traditionelle vs Patek Calatrava - help me decide

[SoylentGreenChi]

I am deciding between a Patek 5196P and a Vacheron-Contantin Traditionelle 82172-9382 and can pick up either at AD’s in Chicago tomorrow. What would you do and why?

Why I like the Patek:

It’s gorgeous - a classic 5196 Calatrava, but with Arabic numerals and a more complex and interesting dial layout than others in the line. I also like that Patek is independent, and does a generally good job with value retention.

What I do not love about the Patek:

Much more expensive than the VC. Also, small movement and no open caseback.

Why I like the VC:

A Holy Trinity maker with historical strengths in dress watches. The model line is likely being retired, so perhaps one of the last chances to pick up this model from an AD. The movement is beautiful and sits well in the case. The price point is nearly 20K less than the Patek.

What I do not like about the VC:

Not sure Richemont will protect the brand the same as Patek. Also, the dial doesn’t pop to me the same as the Patek 5196P.

Forum experts, what are your thoughts? What would you do? I’m torn.

[huydoan]

it's not common to see 12 full breguet numerals + 3 different treatments on the dial on a Patek. that's enough for it to be the winner

[Nicof]

Hard to beat this.


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[MILGAUSS88]

You are correct on the Patek cons.
But, if you are willing to pay up, the 5196p is a much nicer looking watch.

It's a nice feeling to have the top of the line, time only Calatrava as well.

A lot of people think the 5196p will be retired soon as well. Likely to be upgraded to a larger watch and movement with an open back. But Patek will probably tack on another $15k for that if/when it happens.

[sensui]

I actually think vacheron here has the Patek beat in all regards (movement, finish, aesthetics, size/versatility) except:

Not platinum
Not a Patek (value retention)

No wrong choices though. Both excellent. Personally I live the 5196g or 5196r more without the breugets.

[Nicof]

Not sure at what point people became such movement snobs but in general I personally much prefer a watch with a beautiful dial and (maybe) less appealing movement than a watch with a nice movement and average dial because at the end of the day, the dial is what you will be staring at 99% of the time…not the movement.


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[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by Nicof

Not sure at what point people became such movement snobs but in general I personally much prefer a watch with a beautiful dial and (maybe) less appealing movement than a watch with a nice movement and average dial because at the end of the day, the dial is what you will be staring at 99% of the time…not the movement.


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In general I'd agree, and I slightly favor the Patek of these two. However the undersized movement in the Patek forces the small seconds subdial to sit closer than I'd like to the center of the dial. Whereas on the VC with it's movement that is better designed for the case size, the seconds subdial is more "harmoniously" positioned to my eye. The 6 hour index is short, but the 12 hour index is a bit long to balance it out.

[rolexfanforlife]

VC! My favorite brand

[GB-man]

VC better executed but the other one is a platinum Patek. Patek = heart VC= mind

[Becweb]

Patek always for me, especially when not a sports model.

[GoingPlaces]

VC more attractive to me, but I'd go platinum Patek if I was you.

[SoylentGreenChi]

Thank you for the input folks, and keep the ideas coming - it was a sleepless night as I was back and forth with multiple scenarios (eg. Why not get the VC and a Lange Saxonia for less cost than the Patek; No, never buy two lesser desired watches instead of getting the one you truly love . . .)

These are moments where I am tempted to say, this decision is too hard, I’ll get both. But that’s lazy and expensive, and avoids the responsibility/fun of making hard curatorial decisions.

[Krash]

I like the VC better just on looks alone. Getting a VC isn’t exactly a bad decision either…


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[Longhorn]

Love the breguet numerals and the dial finishing of Patek. Equally being able to dress down and dress up. I find the design more intriguing. Does the watch in of itself worth the asking price? Frankly no, but this is a Patek and you are paying for everything else around the brand and the prestige. VC is part of the trinity, but they aren't close in esteem to many people (and the resale market). Is it smart for us to pay premiums for carefully managed brands despite deficiencies on specs on paper? Maybe not, but we do it for Rolex... is Patek cutting corners here using a really small movement for a watch - no doubt. I would hope they try harder. But I love it still.

For the 82172 - the 4400 AS calibre movement was a landmark movement that served as the basis for future complications and other higher end pieces like the historiques 1921. In that way, i think the watch and this movement is representative of the modern era of Vacheron. The movement is also highly regarded by Kari Voutilainen, if that means anything to you. Meant to be serviceable by any competent watchmaker, and I had one that was close 10 years old that kept great time.

For me, I find the Patek dial more romantic. I think Patek will retain value more value in case you fall out of love with it. I would get it despite its faults and inadequacies. If you are in love with the design of the VC then it's a no brainer because it's better on paper.

[mario1971]

Of the two, of course, VC. I don't like Arabic numerals in this particular Patek model.

As for the mechanism, the 4400 is one of the best hand-drawn moves ever made.

[ChetBaker]

Put the Patek next to either of these and the choice is easy.

https://www.vacheron-constantin.com/...000p-9811.html

Or

https://www.vacheron-constantin.com/...e.780.1275.png

I agree with some of the posters above. For this kind of money I could not tolerate the small movement causing the awkward placement of the subdial. So the problem is both movement and dialside with this one.

[SoylentGreenChi]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Put the Patek next to either of these and the choice is easy.

https://www.vacheron-constantin.com/...000p-9811.html

Or

https://www.vacheron-constantin.com/...e.780.1275.png

I agree with some of the posters above. For this kind of money I could tolerate the small movement causing the awkward placement of the subdial. So the problem is both movement and dialside with this one.

I agree with you. Sadly, the first watch you linked to is no longer available (that was the first VC I tried to get with no luck). The second one is too large for my tiny wrists. That said, my thoughts are completely in synch with yours.

[SoylentGreenChi]

Folks -

Thank you for your thoughts, this forum is a terrific community. I have made my decision: it’s the Patek 5196P. I’m going in to pick it up later this afternoon, incoming photos to come.

Regards!

[Nicof]

Originally Posted by SoylentGreenChi

Folks -

Thank you for your thoughts, this forum is a terrific community. I have made my decision: it’s the Patek 5196P. I’m going in to pick it up later this afternoon, incoming photos to come.

Regards!

Great choice! Congratulations!


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[vitalsigns]

Congrats. The 5196P is a special piece in the Calatrava line-up and is, and will remain future, a collectible piece.

[Longhorn]

Congratulations can't wait to see it!

[SoylentGreenChi]

Apologies for the poor qualities of the photos, they do not do the 5196P justice. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, it was helpful and appreciated. Decisions like these are challenging, but it’s also what makes the hobby fun. Enjoy your watches in good health!


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[Justindo]

Congratulations! I think deep down you really wanted the Patek so it's good you got it, as it will soon be discontinued and likely replaced by the better sized and very attractive 30-255PS movement.

I have the 5119J, which is somewhat similar to your 5196P as well as the 38mm rose gold Traditionnelle . I personally prefer the heft and better sized movement of the VC but the platinum case and applied numerals of the 5196P are compelling, albeit the price is too high, in my opinion, but that's Patek. The 215 movement is small but beautiful and yours is a closed case back so out of sight, out of mind. I definitely think the Patek can be dressed down more easily (Longhorn's looks great on the leather strap) than the VC. Enjoy!

[Aconitase]

Congratulations on the pickup! As was said before, there were no wrong choices here. And just because you didn't choose it this time around doesn't mean you can't choose it in the future!



Nice Laurent ̶F̶e̶r̶r̶i̶e̶r̶ Perrier too.

[danwang0520]

Fabulous choice, congrats OP!

[dannyp]

Only way the VC becomes anywhere close to as visually appealing as the PP is if you can get your hands on the 9888 "boutique exclusive" version of the watch you're looking at. That dial...

[SoylentGreenChi]

Originally Posted by Aconitase

Congratulations on the pickup! As was said before, there were no wrong choices here. And just because you didn't choose it this time around doesn't mean you can't choose it in the future!



Nice Laurent ̶F̶e̶r̶r̶i̶e̶r̶ Perrier too.

Great photo! That piece is beautiful, if I could get my hands on it in white gold, I would likely pick it up in addition to the Patek and call it quits on new acquisitions until 2022. The nice thing is that the VC’s aesthetics are different enough from the PP that I could reasonably accommodate both in my collection. The VC steel Cornes de Vache is also magnificent. VC definitely at the top of my wish list now!

[uniqueMR]

Patek it is. Congrats...

[SoylentGreenChi]

Okay, I loved the Vacheron so much, I went to the Boutique and picked it up. So ultimately I couldn’t choose, and bought both.


Thanks everyone! Have wonderful holiday seasons and a great 2022!


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[Justindo]

Congratulations again! Now you've got the best of both worlds with a platinum Calatrava on a black strap and a pink gold Traditionnelle on a brown strap, which makes for a powerful combo. Now you just need a steel Cornes de Vache to complete your metals collection! ;) Wear your wonderful watches in good health!