Alternative to Patek

[Donjo]

Like many, I have had no luck recently obtaining any of the more desirable Pateks, particularly in light of the closure of my long-time AD in San Antonio. On the other hand, I had been on a waiting list for four years with Roger W. Smith and they are ready to start production on a new watch for me if I choose to move forward. Their basic watches start around $375k which is more than I had wanted to spend - as I recall, when I got on the waiting list, the price was at least $100k less. Have any of you purchased a bespoke watch from Roger or another low production watchmaker? If so, what was your experience. Thanks

[Vasco]

The Independent path is the one you naturally follow once you come on forums or meet with people in "get together" events. In 2010, I had the chance to discover Chronopassion, a retailer promoting indies from the beginning, who could introduce me to and make me experience them for a long while.

5 years ago it was still a more risky move because it was quite expensive and you must be sure that, if something happens in terms of going concern, your watch could still be serviced.

Today, even if there's a hype, I think that a wide array of new clients have come to discover and enjoy watches, for the technique or the aesthetics.

I would say their going concern would be more secured (and some provide complications for other brands to secure their financial balance) even if one must keep in mind it often relies on the founder/watchmaker.

But prices have skyrocketed too in the last few years. This is a risk you have to estimate.

There is a lot to love in indies and my experience was excellent in terms of watchmaking (De Bethune and Voutilainen, I would even include early era Richard Mille even if not in the traditional sense). The stories are very nice to follow, discussing with the watchmakers during events remains one of my best watch memories (Laurent Ferrier diner in 2012 for his first watches, fantastic openness with Max Busser, great friendly disccusions with Ludovic Ballouard, I never talked to the Gronefeld brothers but heard they are great people too...). Urwerk bring interesting stuff too. The Greubel-Forsey watches have an incredible finish and are little work of art technically with their Tourbillon pieces. I saw a Philippe Dufour once but never handled Roger Smith pieces even if I read and heard great things about his work.

There is some work to do to discover and understand them to find which one sings to you. Once it's done, there's a risk to take. I would maybe say bigger risk bigger reward?

[Ichiran]

These artisanal independents are not "alternatives" to Patek. They are exponentially more difficult to acquire based on my own experience. Patek makes 70,000 pieces per year while many of these artisanal brands only produce 20 to 30. Philippe Dufour only makes 6 and they all end up under the pillows of his best friends as gifts.

I don't know what's the retail price of RWS (orders for their watches have been suspended at the moment) but 300+ is a steal in my opinion. Will happily take over your queue if that's allowable.

[Partekular]

VASCO - what a thoughtful reply! Thanks.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Partekular

VASCO - what a thoughtful reply! Thanks.

My pleasure ^^

[GB-man]

Wow that’s steeper than I had imagined tbh. If you have the means I’d do it though. A pity to wait 4 years and not see the result!

[vliberman]

I am wondering if recent interest in Indies is the ultimate hype vs sudden awakening of interest in watchmaking? I for one got a few desirable brands/ models initially because the usual suspects were not obtainable to me. Ultimately, because of everything listed above, I got hooked on indies and probably never buy Patek even if offered. However, I wonder if that is typical? Like if 5811 is offered, would u take it over Ferrier or Gauthier? I do feel there are several brands that reached escape velocity (Mb&F, FPJ and RM) no matter the conditions. With respect to the rest, time will tell.

With Roger Smith, you are paying for the pinnacle of watchmaking. Premium is steep vs say Voutillainen watches which are probably comparable. Only u can decide whether it is worth it to you.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by vliberman

I am wondering if recent interest in Indies is the ultimate hype vs sudden awakening of interest in watchmaking? I for one got a few desirable brands/ models initially because the usual suspects were not obtainable to me. Ultimately, because of everything listed above, I got hooked on indies and probably never buy Patek even if offered. However, I wonder if that is typical? Like if 5811 is offered, would u take it over Ferrier or Gauthier? I do feel there are several brands that reached escape velocity (Mb&F, FPJ and RM) no matter the conditions. With respect to the rest, time will tell.

With Roger Smith, you are paying for the pinnacle of watchmaking. Premium is steep vs say Voutillainen watches which are probably comparable. Only u can decide whether it is worth it to you.

Same boat here. I am a big fan of Patek but after a few pieces of independents, it is hard to keep coming back to Patek except for its pinnacle pieces like minute repeaters which I am not qualified to apply. I actually have an empty wishlist with my Patek AD now.

Recently was offered some “hard” to get pieces like VC 222, VC overseas skeleton Tourbillon and perpetual calendar along with two steel ROs and have turned them all down. (May be a 16202st will be hard to reject) Only want to focus on FPJ, MB&F and Voutilainen now, and may be add a Romain Gauthier or Haldimann to the collection if situation allows.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by vliberman

I am wondering if recent interest in Indies is the ultimate hype vs sudden awakening of interest in watchmaking? I for one got a few desirable brands/ models initially because the usual suspects were not obtainable to me. Ultimately, because of everything listed above, I got hooked on indies and probably never buy Patek even if offered. However, I wonder if that is typical? Like if 5811 is offered, would u take it over Ferrier or Gauthier? I do feel there are several brands that reached escape velocity (Mb&F, FPJ and RM) no matter the conditions. With respect to the rest, time will tell.

Well, it's an interesting question. In the mean time, if I can share my own experience, I went the opposite way^^ (i.e. ended with Patek). I guess that it also has to do with the context (economic, hype...).

In 2010, I went looking at <10K watches (Rolex, JLC, Omega, Blancpain, litterally every brand) and started with a Lange 1815 R which teached me a lot about high finishing. Forums and collectors I met helped a lot during that process.

Then, I went toward Indies (De Bethune, RM and Voutilainen) while being very attracted by MB&F, FPJ, Urwerk, Greubel Forsey (out of reach), etc... And got a 5712/1A. All this was circa 10 years ago (hence not the same market at all, prices were lower and watches didn't keep value). LF just started, it was too soon but there was also Speake-Marin, Vianney Halter, etc...

Btw, FPJ's values have known a very significant "improvement" since Chanel has taken a stake (20% if I'm not wrong?).

I started quite soon after the Indies period to discover Patek (and VC or AP even if I knew the Royal Oak already). Of course there was a difference in finishing but I discovered much more than just external decoration finishing regarding that brand.

In the end, I sold everything to get a 5270 (that I didn't purchased in the end haha).

Today, I still have my beloved 5712 and regret I didn't get the 15305 Skeleton I loved too back then (2012).

Even though I read books and all the forum posts about the indies I could find, which made me learn more about technical aspects and differences between watchmakers, I also could start to observe what was a real technical input and what was more an aesthetical or complicated prowess (i.e. without timekeeping improvement, reliability or comfort for instance). To each his own, I imagine that we all have different sides of watchmaking singing to us.

Of course, considering the prices involved, value keeping is also a criterion. Not everybody back then could afford to loose 5 to 30% as soon as you left the store on a watch. Back then, this point was clearly in favor of PP versus any other brand in the high-end field.

But the market is very different today and indeed, with the problems with PP availability and miserable client stories today, there is certainly a transfer of the purchasing "pressure" on Indies. That's excellent for them because they can secure their businesses and their philosophy and excellent for people who like watchmaking.

But, I think (personally) that there is room for both.

[Calatrava r]

If you can get a bespoke Smith and can afford go for it. They aren’t taking new orders so you’re lucky if you’re slated for a watch. The experience will be fine but the thrill is in owning the watch.

[2loaded]

No skin in the Patek game as they never appealed to us (no offense to Gérald Genta)
Greubel Forsey Balancier S2 will provide a wonderful experience.

[Henrimontgomery]

My friend, there is not a single version of the multiverse where I would give 375k to Roger Smith, even if he could summon a Royal Nautilus BLRO Bleue out of thin air.

If you like the style, you have a plethora of choice and exotics offerings from reputable watchmakers.

To me, Roger's looks like Breguets but worse.

[vliberman]

Haldimann looks like a much better proposition vs Roger Smith… hard to argue semantics between two but price difference is stunning… both deserve to get the levels they ask but as consumer it seems like a no brainer unless intent is pure investment…

[Yobrooks]

The indies discussed here are virtually all unobtainable like Patek, and I'll add Grönefeld to the mix. That being said, there are so many benefits regarding owning a patek..history, amazing time pieces. Long-term service availability and staying power. Enjoy the journey.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

[vliberman]

Actually, that is the whole point of the discussion, these indies are accessible. One still has to wait (took me a year to get LM 101. But one will be treated with respect and offered opportunity to buy a watch without playing games My experience with FPJ supports that point. Whereas with Patek, I felt there is no chance to get the watch I wanted. At every interaction, you are made to believe you are not worthy of the brand. Which very well could be the case. But unlike 80s when Patek reigned supreme, it is not longer the case. And options out there far surpass what Patek can offer these days… just my 2 cents