UK AD new policy

[Miexpeman]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

it is a strong suggestion from Rolex UK to the AD. If the AD doesn't want to follow its their choice. If too many watches get flipped from their location and Rolex finds out they could lose their AD status and holding the card helps to reduce this. Which option do you think most choose?

It has been communicated to AD's from Rolex as well as removing the stickers. Its optional i guess, but Rolex is carrying a pretty big stick and its scares everyone.

I know this is what happens at many AD’s but I guess the AD can still use their own discretion depending on the client they are selling too, and consider things like previous business etc. My CHNR & SD43 both sold with warranty card included. By the way this is an Independent AD that Rolex supported to be the first in the UK to showcase both the Rolex and Tudor models from Baselworld this year. So I’d say their relationship with Rolex UK is pretty strong and not one they would jeopardise. As I said before, it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if they did retain my warranty. What’s your thoughts on the issue?


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[haberdashery]

Originally Posted by Miexpeman

I know this is what happens at many AD’s but I guess the AD can still use their own discretion depending on the client they are selling too, and consider things like previous business etc. My CHNR & SD43 both sold with warranty card included. By the way this is an Independent AD that Rolex supported to be the first in the UK to showcase both the Rolex and Tudor models from Baselworld this year. So I’d say their relationship with Rolex UK is pretty strong and not one they would jeopardise. As I said before, it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if they did retain my warranty. What’s your thoughts on the issue?


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There’s no discretion involved, with Aurum Group anyway.

I was at a Basel event and a guy bought a TT Sub, he has bought loads of PM watches from them (my sales rep’s words, not my words or the buyer’s words), and they insisted on holding the warranty card for 12 months. On a TT Sub!

Last week I was offered an LVC and/or a SS Sky Dweller. I would have happily bought both but they wanted to hold the card for both for 12 months. I said no and someone else bought them. As it happens something else/better came up anyway, but they are insisting on retaining all warranty cards - even if you’ve bought 10+ SS watches and a selection of PM and TT models like I’ve done over the last few years. This AD has supplied both ceramic SS Daytonas to me fully stickered in the last 12 months, so clearly I can be trusted.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water comes to mind. I’m not 100% sold on the new BLRO because I don’t think the bezel colours look right. That coupled with the warranty card thing means I probably won’t bother buying it even if I am offered one.

[Xelorpepsi]

Two comments come to mind. First, Aurum is probably trying to secure its relationship with Rolex by any means possible. The group is still owned by Apollo and they haven't managed to exit/ IPO the business despite a few attempts. Losing the Rolex franchise would be a catastrophe for the group, so I guess that can partly explain the enforcement of this policy.

Second, if people really have to wait for 12 months to get their waranty card, they will just resell on the grey market later on and/or sell with the box and no papers. I can't see how it's going to make the market more fluid.

Just as an example, the price of the 16700 on Chrono24 has increased by over 20% in three months. On one hand, that makes me happy as I own one, but that makes me terribly sad for other people who would want one and can't afford it...

[haberdashery]

Aurum is Rolex UK’s biggest AD by an absolutely huge margin. It’s hard to see any scenario in which Aurum would lose the relationship with Rolex. There are smaller groups who cause Rolex far more issues than Aurum.

Due to the scale of Aurum’s operation it’s inevitable that some of their stock will end up on the grey market - more than other groups, just because they have so many stores and customers.

I just think some discretion and common sense should be employed, specifically when dealing with long term customers who have a track record of buying and keeping in demand watches.

[gaoxing84]

Hey man. Sorry to dig up a old thread.

Anyone have experience buying from Bucherer London AD.
Do they have the practice of keeping the warranty card?
I understand about the stickers part.
I am getting a Datejust 41 from them tomorrow.

[Token74]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

It may only be a recommendation. But AD’s are being pressured by Rolex to not allow their popular watches to get into the hands of speculators. They are protecting themselves.

Personally I’m perfectly happy with the retaining of warranty cards even though I know many, if not the majority are against it on principle. It means that, in this time of lean supply, more people who actually want to enjoy the watches get to buy them. It also means genuine enthusiasts will get their watches quicker than they otherwise might because flippers will be put off buying a watch they will find impossible to sell without the warranty card.

If you’re dissatisfied then I hope you can resolve the situation to your advantage and get the watch you want. But bear in mind the AD could sell that watch in about 30 seconds flat by making a couple of phone calls to people on the list without getting any aggro about the warranty card.

Totally agree with all of this.


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[IFR Pilot]

I wish all these AD's who are anti-flipper would ring me. I've got a long list of watches that I'd buy tomorrow, with no interest in flipping. My local ADs are all useless as far as I'm concerned. Desperately seeking an AD!

What a sick hobby !

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Xelorpepsi

Two comments come to mind. First, Aurum is probably trying to secure its relationship with Rolex by any means possible. The group is still owned by Apollo and they haven't managed to exit/ IPO the business despite a few attempts. Losing the Rolex franchise would be a catastrophe for the group, so I guess that can partly explain the enforcement of this policy.

Second, if people really have to wait for 12 months to get their waranty card, they will just resell on the grey market later on and/or sell with the box and no papers. I can't see how it's going to make the market more fluid.

Just as an example, the price of the 16700 on Chrono24 has increased by over 20% in three months. On one hand, that makes me happy as I own one, but that makes me terribly sad for other people who would want one and can't afford it...

it helps slightly even for non flippable watches apples to apples comparison.

In the last week i have went to every London AD (at least on location in regards to a chain with multiple outlets)... the only 1 with a platinum daytona in stock is you guessed it.... WoS.

Why? because they are the only one who holds the card. So as a drop in customer its the only AD who has the watch available to purchase.

All things being equal everyone prefers to have the card, so if no one has the watch except the one who keeps the card then you have a decision to make.

You can also apply this to hot watches too. It doesn't mean they are now easy to get.... but it means that the immediate flip crowd are not clogging up all their WL's. Sure you can flip it in a year, but its less attractive to most flippers.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Token74

Totally agree with all of this.


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Seriously?
The idea would be more palatable if one of our fellow enthusiasts could actually go into a dealer and actually acquire the watch they desire.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Seriously?
The idea would be more palatable if one of our fellow enthusiasts could actually go into a dealer and actually acquire the watch they desire.

read the post above

[Madman37]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

i agree its not good. However there are also a ton of people who are buying only to immediately flip. Im not talking about people like us who get bored of watches and move on rather quickly but people who dont even want the watch in the first place. Im all for doing whatever to make that harder. Sure some legitimate WIS who like to keep watches for 6 or 8 months are also going to be negatively affected too, but its still better than doing nothing

I think it’s a good thing if it stops grey market. As I have said before I am on a waitlist at one UK Ad and three of four or the watch I want appear on eBay literally the same month they were received. The advert always says the card is with the dealer who will give it to you after one year. I actually wonder what would happen if you bought the watch and went in for the card after. I would be happy for the card to be kept etc as I just want the watch to wear.

[Token74]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Seriously?

The idea would be more palatable if one of our fellow enthusiasts could actually go into a dealer and actually acquire the watch they desire.

Yes, seriously.

Firstly, although Rolex say that it’s only a recommendation, AD’s ARE running scared of being dumped by Rolex for allowing flippers and greys to buy high demand models. So if Rolex make a recommendation, frankly if I were an AD I would follow that!

Secondly, I’m not fussed about the warranty card in the first 12 months as I have no intention of flipping. And if it puts off some flippers and greys, then I don’t see how this is a bad thing.

AD’s get way too much abuse on this forum. Sure, there are some bad ones, but they are perfectly entitled to make decisions that they believe are best for their business in the long term. It wasn’t that long ago that folk on here would advise people to buy from a grey dealer to get a significantly discounted price. In fact, this still happens on some models. And yet, the same people moan about not being able to buy a watch they want from an AD because they haven’t got a relationship with them.

I have a great relationship with my AD - but I was buying watches from them a few years ago when big discounts were available from greys. Is it right that they now reward my loyalty - of course it is! They can be pretty sure that when times are bad in the future, I will still go to them and not chase the cheapest price.

I don’t have a local Patek dealer but really wanted a Nautilus. It took me a long time, a lot of work, and help from a fellow forum member to get the watch I wanted from an AD. For a long time I didn’t think it was going to be possible, but not once did I moan about the situation, or feel hard-done-by just because I couldn’t have what I wanted.

I’d like to buy a new Ferrari TDF. I’ve never bought a Ferrari. There is not a cat-in-hells chance that Ferrari would sell one to me. I understand that, and I’m cool with it.


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[Chiefs]

I'm not joking in the slightest, I would seriously have the case back engraved with my name if an UK AD would sell me a Steel Daytona.

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Seriously?
The idea would be more palatable if one of our fellow enthusiasts could actually go into a dealer and actually acquire the watch they desire.

The guy you replied to, Vince, quoted me.

I wrote that in May 2018 and since then I've picked up an LVc - as hot as it gets outside of the unobtanium that is the D500 and the SS SkYD, plus the BLRO though that is getting easier to acquire over time - and an SD43 - not quite as hot, but warm enough that you'll be paying £3-4k over list to buy a stickered up, warrantied example from a grey.

I'm certain I got both watches in decent time partly because of the warranty-card policy. In fact I got the SD basically the same day I first inquired about it. The assistant manager of the branch told me that they'd called five people on the list that day and they all turned it down. I would say there is no way that that watch would get turned down by that many people if it were a full set because it could be sold instantly for a few hundred quid profit and with effort and/or the right connections you could get a solid four-figure return.

[dtwer]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

Thats the problem. People can buy no risk and flip their watch without losing any money. That is NOT normal. People need to actually think about what they are buying, before they buy it. In a normal market i guarantee they would if it cost them real money to fix a mistake. Now they dont have to use common sense, and that isnt a good thing

This is a very good point, I haven't thought about it but it's an excellent point.

Putting myself in Rolex's shoes. From Rolex's standpoint, having a whole class of re-sellers in the form of greys and flippers practically intercepting majority of popular references mid-stream would be very dangerous to the brand.

Left unchecked, these re-sellers would control the supply as well as pricing; they would render the Rolex msrp unenforceable. These same people would also create an artificial demand that makes it impossible for Rolex to gauge the real consumer demand for their products.

Once the control for pricing and supply/demand is ceded, Rolex would virtually be at the mercy of these unauthorized re-sellers. If someday the economy dips and these re-sellers start to dump the watches at random discounts, Rolex would have nothing to do but to watch its brand image destroyed.

To see how close we are to that possibility, look no further than the Richemont Group with their desperate $500M inventory buyback. If that happened to Rolex, we as Rolex watch owners would all be negatively impacted, too.

That's why I don't believe Rolex would ever ease the battle against the greys and flippers. I will stand with Rolex in their efforts to curb the re-sellers; the last thing I want is to see my Rolex watches turned into worthless junk because some flippers inadvertently crash the brand in their game of profiteering.

[illiguy]

Does anyone know if ADs direct to greys or regular customers who then flip to greys accounts for the largest supply of grey inventory? I assume it's the former.

I ask because it would seem, given the crazy demand (and lack of supply) at ADs for stainless steel models, that ADs would no longer need to sell to greys to "hit quotas" and what have you.

I suppose ADs that violate policy and sell above msrp to greys (e.g., credit card transaction or wire payment at MSRP + side transactions of cash), and resulting profits, could serve as the primary incentive to deal only with greys instead of a regular, willing to buy, customer base.

[SlideRacker]

I think Rolex is being as vigilant as they can wrt to curtailing the greys. (closing suspect ADs, holding warranty cards, removing stickers, etc.). Wouldn't surprise me if deep in the covert Ivory Towers of Geneva somewhere they have as special Brand Protection department, headed by a world-class marketing guru, whose entire focus is win the war against the greys.

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by illiguy

Does anyone know if ADs direct to greys or regular customers who then flip to greys accounts for the largest supply of grey inventory? I assume it's the former.

I ask because it would seem, given the crazy demand (and lack of supply) at ADs for stainless steel models, that ADs would no longer need to sell to greys to "hit quotas" and what have you.

I suppose ADs that violate policy and sell above msrp to greys (e.g., credit card transaction or wire payment at MSRP + side transactions of cash), and resulting profits, could serve as the primary incentive to deal only with greys instead of a regular, willing to buy, customer base.

Depends what market you're talking about. This thread specifically relates to the UK market and though I'm not offering you evidence, I'm certain that in the UK market, resold watches are predominantly flipped by AD customers. The assistant manager at my AD told me that he fears his watches being discovered by Rolex to have been re-sold. he might be lying, but I don't see what incentive he'd have to lie. This story has been re-told by other UK-based posters.

Any AD found to have sold directly onto the grey market would be at risk of losing their Rolex agency, which is a pretty big risk to take.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by SlideRacker

I think Rolex is being as vigilant as they can wrt to curtailing the greys. (closing suspect ADs, holding warranty cards, removing stickers, etc.). Wouldn't surprise me if deep in the covert Ivory Towers of Geneva somewhere they have as special Brand Protection department, headed by a world-class marketing guru, whose entire focus is win the war against the greys.

they want the secondary market, as its in their interest. The higher the prices are the better the "investment" it appears at retail. maybe its out of hand currently, but no brand wants their products sinking after its bought retail as then people won't even buy them in the first place. Look at pretty much every other watch brand...Cartier or VC, Breitling etc.

There is no question secondary prices encourage people to try to buy them.... at a much lower retail price. Ive seen lots of people who are not even into watches all of a sudden trying to buy a Rolex. Why?


Its pretty slick to make a 10K watch appear like a good deal. One thing helps the other thing.

[SlideRacker]

ADs can do their part too. If an AD determines a customer has flipped one of their watches, they can choose to ban that customer.

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by SlideRacker

ADs can do their part too. If an AD determines a customer has flipped one of their watches, they can choose to ban that customer.

The largest AD chain in the UK does just that.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

The largest AD chain in the UK does just that.

the only thing that is really helpful is disallowing purchases of the same hot watch. The warranty card helps, but could just delay a flip. However if you do get a daytona C, you are not getting another one.

Plenty of people get on multiple AD lists and do just that. Due to the amount of location they have, you can't as easily.

One off purchasers who flip is more palatable to me than a person on 10 AD waitlists for the same watch. That has been pretty much eliminated.

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

the only thing that is really helpful is disallowing purchases of the same hot watch. The warranty card helps, but could just delay a flip. However if you do get a daytona C, you are not getting another one.

Plenty of people get on multiple AD lists and do just that. Due to the amount of location they have, you can't as easily.

One off purchasers who flip is more palatable to me than a person on 10 AD waitlists for the same watch. That has been pretty much eliminated.

My language was a bit imprecise. I think they'll blackball you from purchasing waiting-list watches, rather than not letting you buy anything from any Aurum shop. That would be weird.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

My language was a bit imprecise. I think they'll blackball you from purchasing waiting-list watches, rather than not letting you buy anything from any Aurum shop. That would be weird.

they do but yes WL only watches AFAIK but that includes ALL professional watches and DJ41 regardless if there is an actual waitlist for that model or not... no idea on the timeframe as selling a hot watch after a year and you get the card isn't unreasonable. Finding out is also hit or miss.

i would tend to think the blacklist is sort of mitigated by the fact that most are not selling within the one year warranty card period because you get way less money for it vs a warranty card present watch.

Would love to know though for sure... when you are allowed to sell your watch

[Nadster]

Does Rolex own the warranty card? I don't see such verbiage on my card for my new Explorer. Nothing in the warranty manual either. Not having the warranty card does reduce the resale value of the watch. The laws in the EU must be different than here in the USA. I wouldn't put up with that crap, and if thousands of dollars are involved hire an attorney.

What happened to capitalism?

[AK797]

I think 1 year sounds like a good deterrent in holding the card, but I would give it back after 6 months, esp if a customer is a regular buyer, think 6 months would put off most flippers and yet give a genuine buyer a fairer amount of wait time if they go off the watch after 2/3 months as is common and wanted to trade it for something else.

[Daveclock]

Originally Posted by Madman37

I think it’s a good thing if it stops grey market. As I have said before I am on a waitlist at one UK Ad and three of four or the watch I want appear on eBay literally the same month they were received. The advert always says the card is with the dealer who will give it to you after one year. I actually wonder what would happen if you bought the watch and went in for the card after. I would be happy for the card to be kept etc as I just want the watch to wear.

I see tons of desirable watches for sale with the promise of "card later" don't worry the AD has it, but I have a photo copy of it and will send on later.....

This does not stop the watch selling on the secondary market.

[Daveclock]

Originally Posted by THFCCAMBS

Pick my new Hulk up on 11th June so will see what happens with the card and stickers. Not an issue either way for me to be honest.

Quite a forward planned date - you give hope to those who hope the Hulk lives on!

...how did you manage this?! (I ask as I am but a scribble on a WL only)

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Nadster

Does Rolex own the warranty card? I don't see such verbiage on my card for my new Explorer. Nothing in the warranty manual either. Not having the warranty card does reduce the resale value of the watch. The laws in the EU must be different than here in the USA. I wouldn't put up with that crap, and if thousands of dollars are involved hire an attorney.

What happened to capitalism?

some cars you buy in the US you sign a legally binding agreement restricting your right to do as you please with it. Sometimes it involves resale, sometimes it involves exporting.

I own my range rover, and i cannot ship it to another country if i wish or RR can go after me. First year i believe.

if its a condition of sale you do not have to agree to it. You have no guaranteed right to be able to purchase a watch from an AD and no one is forcing you to buy it. Their rules or no sale.

You have it backwards though, generally laws are more consumer friendly in the EU and more business friendly in the US.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Daveclock

I see tons of desirable watches for sale with the promise of "card later" don't worry the AD has it, but I have a photo copy of it and will send on later.....

This does not stop the watch selling on the secondary market.

WF Sells them for about 3k less w/o a card, or did the last time i checked... so the person selling it is getting way less money for it. Kind of decreases the incentive.