when patina is too good to be true

[The_Walrus]

Originally Posted by LunetteVerde

LMAO! You are hilarious and satirical dude - my hats off to you :)


♛lunetteverde@Instagram♛

Hysterical Mon- took me a second or two.
I remember his rant on here a few months ago.
Won't be long before someone alerts him of this thread as well and he spits the dummy again.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by The_Walrus

I remember his rant on here a few months ago.

can you please point me to the mentioned thread - if necessary via pm.
Thanks!

I'm unable to dig that particular thread out but a resident forum member brought his authenticity into question and 'No Buy' reacted with a whole new username and account .

[Fellini]

Part of the real problem here might be the listing of this particular seller in the "totally trustworthy" section of this venerable forum, a contradictio that would call for a more substantiated response than a simple "just don't buy there". But that's only my two pence of thought.

[mike]

Pretty well known in the community. Pricing has always seemed a bit strong to me as well.

As always--Buy the seller.

[bondtoys]

we all know what visually magic is done with worn-out bracelets by Michael Young.

I have no doubt that similar results can be achieved with damaged and aged dials and cases - but it should be disclosed imo.

The fact that it isn't and that the seller is still allowed to sell here worries me a bit.

[watches4me]

This is the insane part, if you follow vintage dealers on Instagram, all there dials seem to be to darn perfect, some watch cases look so perfect as if from the rolex factory, "new old stock" .... I've been trading watches my whole adult life and have only seen a handful of specimen watches (as new).. I would hate to make a purchase only to find that the dial & case had been altered !!!

[willang]

Am currently considering one from a seller and would appreciate PM to confirm if it's him and stay away. Thanks.

[Poohsan]

I live in Hong Kong and buy watches here. There are a lot of shops and individuals altering watches and selling them with out disclosure all over the city.

I would appreciate a PM about this seller.

Regards,

[polarinda]

A 16610 rarely has hands that match the patina on the markers or pearl.
He used to have one with all of that bearing the same shade and intensity. Thats what stopped me from buying.
Have pmed a few here asking the source. Please deal at your own discretion.

[descartes]

I have wondered about this seller too because of his seemingly unending, large supply of watches (even relatively rare ones) with perfect patina and chamfers. BUT that said, he is one of only a few "green star" sellers on the recommended sellers "sticky" and there are several people who have reported good purchases.

It would be nice if someone with 1st hand knowledge (either way) offered some insight.

[MitchSteel]

Mark my words fellas......the next few watches he'll be selling, the patina will be a bit lighter......then it'll go back to dark or orange looking.
This has been discussed here and other forums extensively, and that particular seller has been banned from The Other Forum......jusssayin'

[onefastman]

I've always wondered that.

I was close to messaging about a 14270 blackout but passed because it seemed so implausible that he had such a large number of rare watches in perfect condition.

If it looks too good to be true it usually is.

Especially if he will only take bank wire and is from another country..

[swish77]

Well, I've been following this seller for years and I couldn't find much, if anything, to substantiate the criticism. There are a lot of rumors for sure, but I couldn't find anyone who publicly (online) confirmed a fake/altered dial or fake/altered case. Sure, some of his watches look too good to be true, but then there are a lot of others that look just fine. There was a forum member who posted just a couple of weeks ago here about how happy they were with a vintage Sub they bought from this seller. I don't have a dog in this debate, but I know we need to be careful criticizing without real proof.

[stmoore]

Agreed. Wise words.

I have reached out to several people on said topic. All have been very happy with said seller.

I have no direct buying experience, however.

Originally Posted by swish77

Well, I've been following this seller for years and I couldn't find much, if anything, to substantiate the criticism. There are a lot of rumors for sure, but I couldn't find anyone who publicly (online) confirmed a fake/altered dial or fake/altered case. Sure, some of his watches look too good to be true, but then there are a lot of others that look just fine. There was a forum member who posted just a couple of weeks ago here about how happy they were with a vintage Sub they bought from this seller. I don't have a dog in this debate, but I know we need to be careful criticizing without real proof.

[PoderEsBueno]

Originally Posted by stmoore

agreed. Wise words.

I have reached out to several people on said topic. All have been very happy with said seller.

I have no direct buying experience, however.

x 2

[Dr DRW]

Now Boys I've Never Been this curious in Times past .

[QueueCumber]

I've never bought a piece sold by the seller in question, so I really can't share my own experiences with his pieces, but aren't many of the things being stated in this thread considered slander and libel?

Is there any proof of the things being stated?

I think "buy the seller" is a potentially dangerous philosophy if followed blindly. Even the BEST sellers make mistakes, so one should ALWAYS have a few independent non-dealer experts, who are not affiliated with the dealer at all, look at the pieces they are contemplating as a purchase. This avoids conflicts of interest with other dealer experts, who may disparage a piece inappropriately because they are looking to sell you a similar piece or don't like the competition, and it also avoids the problem of being given advice by people that may want to stick up for dealers or friends in their cohort even when a piece is less than adequate.

[polarinda]

Im not slandering. I raised a question about the near perfect patina in every vintage watch i see from him...and asked how to identify naturally occuring patina from sped up ones.
But i was told to not buy if not comfortable...which i agree...and will do so.

You are all free to make your own judgement...and for the record..i have not openly said without reservations that they are fake or otherwise...just doubts which hopefully someone in the know will clear up.
I hope it's not against the law to doubt someone in a watch forum.

[LunetteVerde]

Originally Posted by The_Walrus

Hysterical Mon- took me a second or two.

I remember his rant on here a few months ago.

Won't be long before someone alerts him of this thread as well and he spits the dummy again.

For anyone who has been around enough with fellow collectors, vintage pieces & forums - you find the answer if you look around a bit more ;-)

G'day mate 🍺


♛lunetteverde@Instagram♛

[LunetteVerde]

Yup, the maxim of buying the seller is outdated as i've been long enough to see a few "loved" sellers gone rogue :-( To err is human ?

I've no dog in this ring but it pays to do your own homework & put less weightage on buying blindly just bcoz its the seller IMO

"caveat emptor applies!"

Originally Posted by QueueCumber

I've never bought a piece sold by the seller in question, so I really can't share my own experiences with his pieces, but aren't many of the things being stated in this thread considered slander and libel?

Is there any proof of the things being stated?

I think "buy the seller" is a potentially dangerous philosophy if followed blindly. Even the BEST sellers make mistakes, so one should ALWAYS have a few independent non-dealer experts, who are not affiliated with the dealer at all, look at the pieces they are contemplating as a purchase. This avoids conflicts of interest with other dealer experts, who may disparage a piece inappropriately because they are looking to sell you a similar piece or don't like the competition, and it also avoids the problem of being given advice by people that may want to stick up for dealers or friends in their cohort even when a piece is less than adequate.

♛lunetteverde@Instagram♛

[zederhoff]

Very interesting thread.
My local Rolex guy - whom is also a vintage lover told me about a well known issue with what he called "Hong Kong Vintage productions".

He told me that in some cases new dial's etc will be "treated" with e.g. Cigar smoke to obtain the desired patina.

I have no idea whom does this. But I will newer buy a vintage without posting pictures in this great forum for expert opinion.

Can someone tell me why some watches get a yellow patina and some orange. Is it down to the producer of the dial?



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[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by zederhoff

Can someone tell me why some watches get a yellow patina and some orange. Is it down to the producer of the dial?

I'd think it's down to a large number of variables, such as dial maker, conditions and varying mixtures and materials used at the time (even within one producer) and then decades of who-knows-what in terms of wear/storage/conditions etc.

It's a bit like asking why have your 20 yr-old jeans faded differently from mine...

[zederhoff]

Yes - I understand. I didn't mean to suggest there is only one "correct" patina. I get that there is a broad range of patina - making the vintage world so interesting. I was just trying to get an understanding since I am new in this.

Thanks,
Klaus


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[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by zederhoff

Yes - I understand. I didn't mean to suggest there is only one "correct" patina. I get that there is a broad range of patina - making the vintage world so interesting. I was just trying to get an understanding since I am new in this.

Thanks,
Klaus


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

we all are!

[minimerc]

Originally Posted by swish77

Well, I've been following this seller for years and I couldn't find much, if anything, to substantiate the criticism. There are a lot of rumors for sure, but I couldn't find anyone who publicly (online) confirmed a fake/altered dial or fake/altered case. Sure, some of his watches look too good to be true, but then there are a lot of others that look just fine. There was a forum member who posted just a couple of weeks ago here about how happy they were with a vintage Sub they bought from this seller. I don't have a dog in this debate, but I know we need to be careful criticizing without real proof.

I have dealt with him before (a simple DJ and not those expensive sports w orangy markers). I must say he's professional and handled the issues I raised about the watch quite professionally as a commercial dealer. Can't comment on those dials with HK lumes though.

[Tudor Fan]

I think it may have to do with a.) the climate. The particular patina due to climate with watches from Hong Kong has been discussed and b.) the way he photographs.

I did buy my '76 Snowflake from him that looked patina wise like a lot of others on his site. In the flesh it has very nice patina but not as strong as in the shots from him. The markers still glow when charged (if only for a fe seconds). And the watch has been overhauled by a local expert who attested its 100% authenticity.

[CharlieMae]

Let me elaborate...

No one is saying the seller:

Doesnt sell genuine watches
Isn't honest or professional
Uses any parts that arent 100% authentic


What has to be considered is that the percentage of watches with cases that are unpolished and with perfect chamfers is extremely small. I would say that the numbers are less than 1% (my estimate). As time goes on and these watches get older and older, the numbers will continue to decrease.

He does not state that the cases are refinished, which in my opinion they are 100%. If he disclosed this then we wouldnt be having a discussion about the cases. The dials are another matter..

DIALS: I would say there are hundreds of shades of patina from bright white all the way to dark brown. To see the same color lume on the majority of watches from the same seller is unusual. This has been going on for YEARS and on literally hundreds of watches.

This is not possible. There isnt magic air, humidity or sunlight in Hong Kong that changes lume to mystical orange unlike anywhere else on earth. May I also note that all of the hands also magically match which is also impossible on every watch.

I am not here to tell anyone to buy or not to buy from this seller. All I am here to disclose are the facts surrounding his watches and the odds of an orange plot dial, matching hands, on an unpolished case with perfect chamfers is infinitely small. To be able to source hundreds of them...well you come to your own conclusions.

[linesiders]

Some of the patina consistency can be chalked up to how the photos are taken, and some can be chalked up to location - I think it is is more than that but I am not expert enough nor have had one in my hand to tell.

He who shall not be named is also not selling on VRF, arguably the best market for his wares.

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by CharlieMae

Let me elaborate...

No one is saying the seller:

Doesnt sell genuine watches
Isn't honest or professional
Uses any parts that arent 100% authentic


What has to be considered is that the percentage of watches with cases that are unpolished and with perfect chamfers is extremely small. I would say that the numbers are less than 1% (my estimate). As time goes on and these watches get older and older, the numbers will continue to decrease.

He does not state that the cases are refinished, which in my opinion they are 100%. If he disclosed this then we wouldnt be having a discussion about the cases. The dials are another matter..

DIALS: I would say there are hundreds of shades of patina from bright white all the way to dark brown. To see the same color lume on the majority of watches from the same seller is unusual. This has been going on for YEARS and on literally hundreds of watches.

This is not possible. There isnt magic air, humidity or sunlight in Hong Kong that changes lume to mystical orange unlike anywhere else on earth. May I also note that all of the hands also magically match which is also impossible on every watch.

I am not here to tell anyone to buy or not to buy from this seller. All I am here to disclose are the facts surrounding his watches and the odds of an orange plot dial, matching hands, on an unpolished case with perfect chamfers is infinitely small. To be able to source hundreds of them...well you come to your own conclusions.

Quite a few absolute statements of 'fact' here. You seem pretty sure of yourself! They don't all look the same shade of orange to me (or even a majority), and not all of them 'magically match' either, but maybe your monitor/vision is very different from mine. Neither are ALL of them described as unpolished, from what I'm reading, and have read, for years...

I think a lot of it is simply down to presentation: lighting and photographic/finishing/filtration techniques. Then, of course a uniformity of various components will arise, even if [perhaps] slightly exaggerated.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by CharlieMae

Let me elaborate...

No one is saying the seller:

Doesnt sell genuine watches
Isn't honest or professional
Uses any parts that arent 100% authentic


What has to be considered is that the percentage of watches with cases that are unpolished and with perfect chamfers is extremely small. I would say that the numbers are less than 1% (my estimate). As time goes on and these watches get older and older, the numbers will continue to decrease.

He does not state that the cases are refinished, which in my opinion they are 100%. If he disclosed this then we wouldnt be having a discussion about the cases. The dials are another matter..

DIALS: I would say there are hundreds of shades of patina from bright white all the way to dark brown. To see the same color lume on the majority of watches from the same seller is unusual. This has been going on for YEARS and on literally hundreds of watches.

This is not possible. There isnt magic air, humidity or sunlight in Hong Kong that changes lume to mystical orange unlike anywhere else on earth. May I also note that all of the hands also magically match which is also impossible on every watch.

I am not here to tell anyone to buy or not to buy from this seller. All I am here to disclose are the facts surrounding his watches and the odds of an orange plot dial, matching hands, on an unpolished case with perfect chamfers is infinitely small. To be able to source hundreds of them...well you come to your own conclusions.

That is well said.