Are your Pam's accurate? mine aren't...

[lapince]

Been noticing some problems on my Pams, haven't yet been keeping exact track, started tonight though, but they clearly don't keep very good time, from what it seems to me, again I haven't yet kept a clear record yet, in 1 week they have more or less 1-2 minutes difference with the exact time, as for power reserve they are fine except for my 233, sometimes it's ok, sometimes in 3 hours 20-25% of the power reserve is gone after rewinding, then it seems to go away slower, and sometimes it works normally. I will keep a close watch on both power reserve and accuracy, and see how it goes, but for 3 new unworn watches from years 2000 and 2009 it's not very encouraging, especially knowing that I am very careful with them, never drop them or hit something…

I found a graphic here which shows parameters for chronometer watches, clearly I am way out of of the acceptance… It seems to me that I am in "typical" for vintage mechanical watch, which for me my Pam's are clearly not vintage, but I need to do a full and serious check..

How about you are your Pams accurate? What tolerance do you considerer normal? Are 10-15 secs a day acceptable or do you send them for servicing if they run with that difference?

Also I have the impression, but then again I need to study this on 15-30 days, that in the first few days, 5-7, they gain 1-1,5 minutes, but that after they don't gain anymore, because sometimes I don't check the exact time for a long time, and when I do there's never a very big difference, always 2-3 minutes...


Reasonable Accuracy Expectations
by Type of Watch Seconds gain/loss per day

worst typical best
Vintage mechanical watch
in good repair +/-60 +/-15 +/-5 99.9826%
Modern mechanical watch
non-certified +/-10 +/-5 +/-2 99.9942%
Modern mechanical watch
chronometer certified +6/-4 +/-3 +/-1 99.9977%

[lapince]

Found this article which explains that while maybe having big daily variation, a mechanical watch may "damper" itself, i this case if I have a big difference in a few days but not very big in a month or two, how can you see when your watch is working ok or not? As I understand it's not good to put it back on time every few days but on the contrary let it run for a longer period of time to see the result… Here is an extract from the article where they talk about this:


Are quartz watches always more accurate than mechanical ones?

Typically they are, but not always. Accuracy and precision are not exactly the same thing.

It is important to remember that even when a mechanical watch is allowed to vary +6/-4 seconds per day, that does not mean it will consistently vary by that high an amount each day. Mechanical movements--except the very rare 'turbillon' movements that correct for it--are noticably affected by the gravitational pull of the Earth. It only takes a performance distortion of 1/1000th of a percent for a watch movement to be one second less accurate in a day. This causes the performance of mechanical movements to be somewhat different from day to day when not stored in a fixed position. The good news is that the actual variations of a mechanical watch will often cancel each other out. This means a mechanical watch will tend to be more accurate over a longer period than the single-day COSC measurement may imply.

The day-to-day performance of quartz is much more consistent than mechanical under identical conditions. Quartz performance is affected mainly by temperature changes and weakened batteries. So a quartz watch that you measured to gains 0.5 second yesterday will be consistently increasingly off correct time by about that amount. You can be pretty certain that in 60 days, it will be about 30 seconds off. At the end of a year, it would be likely be over 180 seconds off.

Compare that to a mechanical watch that you measured to gain 2 seconds yesterday. It would seem that our example quartz watch is 4 times more accurate than this. But while the daily measured daily variations seem much higher, they are not likely to be as consistent, so will have a dampening effect. You cannot accurately predict that this mechanical would therefore be off by 120 seconds at the end of the same 60 days. It might be right on time, or it may be 200 seconds off. That broader range of variations allows most mechanical watches to stay closer to correct time than the daily variation rate implies. Over a year, some mechanicals can on average stay closer to correct time without having to be reset than a quartz watch might.

[mborkow]

My 372 is very accurate. It's a little tough to see exactly how much it varies daily (since it does not have a second hand) but it easily goes a month without needing to be reset (which I would do at the point where I judged it to be off, usually fast, by 1 minute).

[Cru Jones]

I honestly don't follow accuracy, and I've never had a moment of "woah, the watch is really off". I think part of that is that I re-set the time every few days due to rotating watches.

As for your watches, I don't know your service or regulating history, but, maybe that has something to do with it? Also, early serial 233s had issues.

[htc8p]

from the moment i got into panerai i told myself: this is a good looking watch but i dont think this will be as a precise machine as rolex.

seeing that it doesnt even have minute markers and central sweeping seconds.

so i have set my bar looooooow. so now i am happy.

but now that i have had my 112 overhauled after 9 years of good time keeping. i would say that panerai is not so bad after all.

[mborkow]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

I honestly don't follow accuracy, and I've never had a moment of "woah, the watch is really off". I think part of that is that I re-set the time every few days due to rotating watches.

If you reset your watches every two to three days then you should really never have a problem. I only reset a watch when it is no longer within a minute of the actual time. Since my 372 seems to go a couple months between resets I'd guess it gains no more than 1 second a day which I consider excellent.

[kechy]

I had a PAM with ETA-based movement which I thought was running slow. Took it in to a local watchmaker who put it on his machine - report said running 30 sec slow a day - not good. BUT he was able to adjust to within spec on the spot. A few minutes of tinkering and the new report showed +/- 0 sec avg across the various hand positions! I was happy. Not sure if in-house movements are as easily adjusted.

[Survivor]

Accuracy is not that much of a concern to me......although, I must admit, Panerais are not really good in that department. They are good in the good looking department!

[mborkow]

Originally Posted by kechy

I had a PAM with ETA-based movement which I thought was running slow. Took it in to a local watchmaker who put it on his machine - report said running 30 sec slow a day - not good. BUT he was able to adjust to within spec on the spot. A few minutes of tinkering and the new report showed +/- 0 sec avg across the various hand positions! I was happy. Not sure if in-house movements are as easily adjusted.

Having anyone besides PASC open the watch voids the warranty...

[yOyOYoo]

I haven't timed my recently acquired 337, but I have definitely noticed that after a day or two, I seem to be a minute or so behind in time. My Sub C however, has always kept excellent time.

[radrak]

Bought a BNIB PAM 320 2 months back. I found it to be losing about 20 secs/day. I sent it in to Panerai Service last week for warranty service. The rep there told me -4 to +6 is the range it should be in.

It is the first PAM in my collection. Before this I only purchased BNIB Rolex watches. They are aways within -3 to +4 secs.

Waiting to see how accurate the PAM is once back.

[mborkow]

I am not sure why the rep said -4/+6. That's COSC and Panerai's in-house movements are not COSC. They have another standard which is roughly -8/+12 (but with less allowable variation by position and by degree the watch is wound). The booklet the watch comes with shows all the timings in all the positions both at full wind and then 24 hours later.

[kechy]

Originally Posted by mborkow

Having anyone besides PASC open the watch voids the warranty...

Yes, this particular watch was out of warranty anyway.

[rulessapt]

The PAMs I've owned have all been outsourced movements, kept time well within COSC for which they were certified.

If pinpoint, second a day accuracy is an obsession, and you're not wearing them all, or have them on winders, consider thinning the herd and wearing only one consistently.
That watch which is worn daily will usually give a reliable beat unless requiring service intervention.

That's the "problem" with having more than 1 watch when you have that accurate time obsession. Nothing beats more purely than the sweeping second hand of a mechanical watch, for me anyway.

I'm not cured, but I'm down to two watches. It's tough ;-)

Cheers,
Richard

[kilyung]

Arnaud,
I'll post results from a timegrapher at different levels of PR for a 233.

[Mystro]

I am a accuracy super freak with my automatics. All of my automatics are under +2 seconds. My Panerai is the most accurate followed closely by my Planet Ocean and then Rolex watches. Rikki regulated my Rolex to +1.5 and its rock solid at that. As good as that is, it is my 3rd most accurate automatic.
My Panerai Pam 104 is a well documented 0 seconds + or - in 12 plus weeks. I stopped keeping track. It is more accurate than my quartz watches and is not sensitive to temperature or resting position. It came from Panerai regulated this well.
Unfortunately I had to break its accuracy streak today to adjust it for DST.
My ETA based movement are by far the most accurate.

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...light=Bragging

[lapince]

Thanks for your answers. I put all my 3 Pams rewound and on exact time March 7th Paris time, my 28 is keeping exact time +2 seconds, my 233 +10 secs, for my 82 it's also practically exact, but hard to say since you can't stop the seconds when you put the time, but it had about 30 secs difference and they're still here, so after 43hrs the result is very good, need to see in a few days. For the power reserve on the 233 it seems to be going down normally as I am in the middle of the 2nd and 3rd notch, maybe they are running fine since I am keeping exact track and they don't want to go into service, because from what I could tell before they weren't running at all like this...

[Travelller]

Originally Posted by kilyung

Arnaud, I'll post results from a timegrapher at different levels of PR for a 233.

Cool, looking forward to that info

Originally Posted by lapince

...my 28 is keeping exact time +2 seconds, my 233 +10 secs, for my 82 it's also practically exact ... maybe they are running fine since I am keeping exact track and they don't want to go into service, because from what I could tell before they weren't running at all like this...

Almost funny... but let's be honest, chances are you eyeballed the times and miscalculated - it happens

My 233 followed OP's certified values in six positions for over a year and then things changed and the movement was speeding in ALL positions. I had the watch demaged and it helped somewhat but the mvmt is still a little fast, in all positions. I wind it once a week and check the time against an atomic clock. I just checked and it's +11 over 7 days, so +1.6s/day.

Before the demag, it was hitting up to +16/day I've never placed the watch near any strong magnetic fields, but I was told there are enough magnetic fields in daily life. Now I use a compass to check if my watches have a magnetic field.

The PR indicator is pretty accurate. The last time I did a full week's worth of testing, I also noted the percentage of PR remaining every 24hrs. I also wind my 233 until the clutch slips (some owners are worried it might damage the mvmt so they wind "ten turns" after it reaches the 100% index; I'm not sure if that's really accurate enough... ). Eight graduation marks implies roughly one day per mark but the additional winds after the 8th mark as well as the additional PR after the indicator reaches zero means it's not a complete accurate science. The 233 has almost 10 days PR, truth be told... .



As for my 217, which I just purchased, it's running -12/day which is NOT ok for me and one of the reasons I sent it in to RSC for a fulll service.

[lapince]

Almost funny... but let's be honest, chances are you eyeballed the times and miscalculated - it happens

Haha, no just about once a week I was putting them back on time with an atomic clock and there was 1-2 minutes difference like someone said the problem when you have a few it's not the best thing to keep accuracy, anyways will keep checking until thursday when I leave for Ukraine, no not Crimea, I'm not in the french secret service :smoking: just lived there 8 years, will take one with me there for 13 days, I guess my 233.

And I also like you rewind it to the max, it has a special system even if you wind it to much it doesn't damage it, now it's exactly 48hrs and it's about 20% of the PR, hard to say exactly of course…

For exact time my 233 is still +10, my 28 is at exact time+/-0, surprising, and the 82 has +20, but as I said you can't put it exactly, so basically it has -5 in 48hrs, since when I put the time it had +30, so for now quite satisfied...

[lapince]

Originally Posted by kilyung

Arnaud,
I'll post results from a timegrapher at different levels of PR for a 233.

ThanksMike, that would be great

[MetalNuts]

I agree that PAM is not famous for its accuracy but its look and the military history. The difference in the same in-house movement varies a lot.

[mborkow]

Originally Posted by kilyung

Arnaud,
I'll post results from a timegrapher at different levels of PR for a 233.

That won't take into account conditions like a rough barrel that would distort time keeping in real life...

[KBM]

Aren't most references today supposed to be chronometers?

[lapince]

Originally Posted by kauebm

Aren't most references today supposed to be chronometers?

I think so

[mborkow]

No...the in house movements are not COSC rated.

[lapince]

Well I have been wearing my 28 for 10 days, and just checked, amazingly it's 10 seconds late, hard to believe it… Since I am abroad I just took this one, will have to start over with the 82 and 233 when I will be in Paris, I was more worried about the 233 to begin with, but very happy to see that one works perfectly...

[acarriles]

I bought my PAM 320 BNIB 2 months ago. I have to say that I am incredibly and pleasantly surprised at the incredible accuracy of this watch. I wear it on my wrist about 18 hours a day, and rests overnight, crown up, on my desk. While it gains about +1 during the day, it self adjusts back to +0 by letting it rest crown-up overnight.

After 2 months it is stil dead on with time.gov What an amazing watch!

BTW, since it is a GMT, I didn't even need to stop the movement to adjust for DST since you can change the hour hand while the seconds keep running.

The most accurate watch I've ever had... and I've had quite a bit!

[B. Doggy]

I'm personally not as fussy with accuracy when it comes to Panerai. I mean, there aren't even minute indices and it's nearly impossible to hack....for most models anyway.

[cger]

Best thing I found is to find a watchmaker that can service and regulate it for you to the full extent of what the movement is capable of. The best result I got out of 6497 in 2 different models was +5 sec per 24 hours that would change to +15 sec after few years.
That's pretty good for 6497.

[TswaneNguni]

As a general rule, from my experience, Panerai are not as accurate as Rolex and so what ??