Rolex vs Grand Seiko

[daisie678]

I think each brand has its own worth you can't compare them.

[tom2517]

Rolex, been there done that, I like GS better now, for now anyways.

[Ichiran]

I only have Patek and Grand Seiko in my collection. I'm very likely to add more GS than Rolex going forward. I love the more interesting dials of the GS and the finishing on their case.

[Rori]

Originally Posted by Rexplorer214270

Taking into account people’s responses of “buy what you like” my question is more along the lines of is Rolex vs Grand Seiko a rivalry now or is it just most YouTube personalities and HODINKEE trying to make it into a rivalry. I am leaning towards the latter.

When vintage Daytonas, GMTs or SUBs, which origin cost was around 1000 € new, are now been sold for 2,3,4 million dollars you know Rolex is more than the sum of its parts, the rest is exactly that.


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[accountank2000]

Originally Posted by 42itus

It depends if you take the word rivalry in the literal sense. If so, then I would consider them rivals just based on quality and value. But if you’re going to consider brand recognition, prestige, hype... then there is no brand that rivals Rolex at that price point in my opinion.

They are of course rivals because they are both competing to sell watches for X thousand dollars or pounds or euros etc.

Just like two sports teams are trying to sell tickets or air time.

But that doesn't make them direct rivals appealing to the exact same person. Like Manchester United Vs Saracens, or Patriots Vs Yankees Vs Lakers. You might enjoy watching them all but won't be indifferent between which season ticket you buy, it depends what sport you prefer or what you're in the mood for.

With some Rolexes being unobtainium it's not too surprising that people making a living by promoting and taking about expensive goods are going to heavily feature what they can get their hands on, while using the angle that they're differentiating themselves by taking about 'lesser known' brands that could be 'the next big thing'.

So, social media has gone a bit googoo for GS - some history, a bit exotic due to being Asian not Swiss, with great dials and nice finishing for the price point, etc etc. While Rolex is a different proposition, not as delicately finished but accurate and dependable with a brand recognition for luxury status that money can't buy.

By 'money can't buy', I don't mean that certain models are hard to obtain from a dealer. I mean the brand is something that another brand can't just buy or create by throwing money at it or recruiting talented engineers and designers.

Ignoring the assets and annual profits, let's say Rolex's brand is worth $10bn. But Seiko couldn't simply give Rolex $10bn in cash and say, okay we'll buy that brand recognition off you - from now on, everyone around the world must think of Seiko as the first name that comes to mind when they think of 'aspirational luxury'.

Whether you put a pricetag of $10bn or $100bn on it, it won't happen because the public has impressions built up over years or generations of a good marketing game by Rolex. Seiko could give Rolex tens of billions and tell the Rolex CEO to go on worldwide TV and YouTube with the rest of his board to say that he personally prefers and wears GS because it's better quality for the price point. Some kid in the developing world who doesn't speak English is still going to say Rolex! Rolex! when he sees a wealthy or successful looking guy with a watch. It would take generations before GS could buy that recognition.

So, GS is not 'rivalling' Rolex's status any time soon, despite making some very nice watches. YouTubers and 'Influencers' and watch blogs make money from hype. Most people don't care about luxury watches, or notice them but aren't interested. Some people will think, ah, GS, I keep hearing about them, more respected these days with boutiques in all the big cities, should probably check them out. Others will be cynical and think, ah, GS, I keep seeing the brand being not-so-subtly pushed by people who sell things to folks...

I have one Rolex and one GS. Both nice.

[grimps]

I think GS need to improve their AD experience a little if they're trying to be a luxury brand , whenever I've seen their products they're situated in cases next to various junk or lesser brands.
They should get their own Boutiques and spend a bit more on marketing.
One thing I will say about GS owners is every time I've spoken to someone wearing one they've always been very knowledgeable about watches

[SeaDweller50]

Originally Posted by grimps

I think GS need to improve their AD experience a little if they're trying to be a luxury brand , whenever I've seen their products they're situated in cases next to various junk or lesser brands.
They should get their own Boutiques and spend a bit more on marketing.
One thing I will say about GS owners is every time I've spoken to someone wearing one they've always been very knowledgeable about watches

That’s a good point as I’ve only ever seen the cheapest of Seiko’s for sale in any jewellers window in the U.K. giving the perception that they are indeed cheap and nothing out of the ordinary. I think it would take a lot of convincing anyone that your seiko cost over 5K, and once you had they’d think you were stark raving mad.

[sensui]

Originally Posted by Rexplorer214270

People who are just getting into the hobby will do their research but also watch the YouTubers like Bark and Jack, Hodinkee, Teddy B etc... to further inform their research.

And that's good they do, it's part of the research like you mentioned. But it's like reading the news/watching the news these days, it's an opinion piece and not conclusive... So one has to make up their own mind on what they want on their wrist at the end of the day.

GS is definitely rising very quickly and it's subjective if you like their styling/heritage etc... But if you're being objective comparing how well they build their watches with measurable standards....I think it's pretty clear they're rivals in the same horological space/category.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by Avs Fan

I've tried to like GS, I respect the craftmanship but don't get the designs...

my thinking is exactly like yours, actually i've tried on a few models and try to like it. but the case shape and the bracelet design and adjustability pull me back. also i dont buy the design of the spring drive movement, its just a battery operated quartz movement to me, no showing of mechanical craftmanship in keeping accurate time at all.

[fsprow]

The Seiko Spring Drive is autonomous and has no battery nor quartz oscillator.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by fsprow

The Seiko Spring Drive is autonomous and has no battery nor quartz oscillator.

but it has a quartz, and a metal coil to generate force to regulate the minute hand, which means the movement depends on the oscillation of a quartz to keep time. you just dont need a battery, which the movement generate electricity on its own.

[fsprow]

Originally Posted by rambo99

but it has a quartz, and a metal coil to generate force to regulate the minute hand, which means the movement depends on the oscillation of a quartz to keep time.

True indeed.

[stewester]

If the watches are compared as pure objects without branding, history, marketing and 'hype' taken into account then they are absolutely comparable in terms of movements, finish etc. For many, the fact that a Grand Seiko is not a Rolex means they'll have no interest in them regardless of what the watches themselves are actually like (and that's fine).

Where Grand Seiko still falls down for me is in their bracelets, the excessive thickness of the cases, and the number of limited editions they're constantly releasing. If they get a handle on these things, I'll absolutely consider purchasing one.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I only have Patek and Grand Seiko in my collection. I'm very likely to add more GS than Rolex going forward. I love the more interesting dials of the GS and the finishing on their case.

yes, their dials are amazing, but the case design and bracelet pull me back, just not my taste.

[Sandpit]

Originally Posted by cvo

You can purchase most Seiko watches anytime you would like, then lose 20%+ right afterward. Not the same with Rolex watches.

Ah yes, the old "resale value" argument. I wondered how long it would take for this one to be wheeled out.

The alternative way to look at this might be that you could pick up the Grand Seiko for 20% off instead of buying at full retail. A concept often forgotten by many of the Rolex Resale fans.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by Sandpit

Ah yes, the old "resale value" argument. I wondered how long it would take for this one to be wheeled out.

The alternative way to look at this might be that you could pick up the Grand Seiko for 20% off instead of buying at full retail. A concept often forgotten by many of the Rolex Resale fans.

i think the 20% discount off msrp were already factored in.

[Harry-57]

The rivalry is in the mind of people who lean towards a tribal mentality or maybe have some kind of chip on their shoulder. There are some great GS watches out there. And some great Rolex models. It's all about the watches. Which ones do you like? Who cares who makes them?

[Kevin of Larchmont]

The day they stop putting Grand Seiko and GS on the dial is the day I consider one. This redundancy makes me crazy, like a belt and suspenders. Maybe it’s insignificant, maybe it’s petty but it’s enough to keep me from buying one.

[Paul7]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Grand Seiko was a rival to Rolex in the 1960s and 1970s, but only in Japan, because GS, and its counterpart King Seiko, were only available in Japan. But a major rival they were. Seiko, for example, came out with a quickset date about 10 years before Rolex, and a quickset Day-Date almost 20 years before Rolex. GS also used hardened stainless steel and sapphire crystals first.

GS/KS mechanical movements also caused the Swiss to shut down their chronometer competitions in the late 1960s, after losing so badly to Seiko that they could only win with (ironically) Omega's quartz movements.

You can find out all about that episode in Watch Geeks Youtube clip here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayUT5WfkHrA&t=16s

These days it's still a rivalry, with Rolex marketing and brand recognition arguably being the main areas where Rolex really comes out on top. That's why GS is getting so much airplay on so many YT channels. I think.

Hilarious, the Swiss knew they were losing the competition so they cancelled it.

[peterskinner]

GS isn’t a real competitor; nice watches but way behind in sales and status. Rolex won’t care. Customers don’t care either.

[Syed117]

I've had both for years at this point. Both are great and both have their strengths and weaknesses.

With that said, nine times out of ten, the guy wearing a Rolex knows nothing about watches and just wants a status symbol on his wrist. The guys who are obsessed with resale value and every other damn aspect of the watch other than the watch itself.

The GS guys are almost always the opposite. Grand Seikos aren't for the insecure.

*This is of course outside of this forum.

[Eingram141]

There will always be people who want a watch that isnt Rolex, in that price range. Grand Seiko makes a fantastic claim to that space AND also happen to please non Rolex fan boys and girls. With Grand Seiko fans they absolutely adore the finishing, intricate dials, movement detail, and many other over-the-top hand done quality flurishes. And thats fine, if you value those things then GS is the watch for you and Rolex certainly does come in second place. But what those people dont value, that we do, is how Rolex still makes purpose built tool watches out of their luxury products. Water resistance that we feel confident is understated. No GS fans talk about how Zaratsu polishing will look after its been worn hard for 3 years or how they took their GMT scuba diving on their last vacation.
Personally GS are very nice but they still havent made one that is "just right" to my eyes. Even the old ones. If I had to buy a GS today, it would be hard to pick one. If I had to buy a Rolex today, It would be hard to narrow down to just one. And also I am not looking to own a luxury watch that I feel is more delicate than a Rolex or Omega, which I currently feel GS is.

[RyanJ]

Originally Posted by Eingram141

No GS fans talk about how Zaratsu polishing will look after its been worn hard for 3 years or how they took their GMT scuba diving on their last vacation.

You must not reading the right forums or talking to the right people. It is a smaller market for sure.

Lets be clear though. Rolex owners always talk about their watch because they want you to know they have a Rolex. You see the posts here where people will do anything to be able to justify their Rolex as a "tool" watch. Little do they know how unimpressive that is.

[Robf52]

I love the GS dials and the Zaratsu finishing, and the Spring Drive movement is well thought of. I think GS represents good value at their lower price points. That being said, I don't think a brand that makes 40k watches a year is a near rival to the world's most well renowned brand making 1 million sold-out pieces a year.

[zengineer]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

The day they stop putting Grand Seiko and GS on the dial is the day I consider one. This redundancy makes me crazy, like a belt and suspenders. Maybe it’s insignificant, maybe it’s petty but it’s enough to keep me from buying one.

How many crowns on a modern Rolex?

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[RyanJ]

Originally Posted by Robf52

I love the GS dials and the Zaratsu finishing, and the Spring Drive movement is well thought of. I think GS represents good value at their lower price points. That being said, I don't think a brand that makes 40k watches a year is a near rival to the world's most well renowned brand making 1 million sold-out pieces a year.

Depends on how you are comparing the rivalry.

Brand to brand, no.

Watch to watch, yes.

[JakeK]

No rivalry. That implies that each company creates a strategy specifically aimed at poaching buyers of the other. That isn't happening.

What you are seeing is just influencer-driven dramatics aimed to increase share of viewers' attention to their own content, not necessarily the brand's content.

[RJRJRJ]

Originally Posted by RyanJ

My opinion only:

Watch wise Rolex has many rivals and many brands just make better watches from a horological perspective.

Rolex is #1 in brand. Being #1 in brand does not mean being #1 as a watch. Their watches are solid and will last but are fairly mid-tier horologically. That isn't a negative thing. It just is what it is.

The minute you cannot flip a Rolex for a profit and these will go back to collecting dust, with few exceptions, on AD shelves being sold at big discounts just like 2017ish (maybe 2016ish) and before.

Now, will Rolex let that happen? Probably not. They know exactly how to keep elevating their brand and crazy people have proven they will pay whatever price to have one.

If that were to happen, what do you think would happen to GS?

[RyanJ]

Originally Posted by RJRJRJ

If that were to happen, what do you think would happen to GS?

Who knows. All we can go on is what we have seen happen in the past. GS is really too new to know.

People could move on even more to other brands or

A slowdown in the Rolex market could mean a general slowdown in watch buying or

Many other various scenarios.

We may never know until something like that happens.

[nikesupremedunk]

I realized in the beginning that I’m not actually a “watch enthusiast”, rather a “Rolex enthusiast”. I’ve never had a GS but had a few regular seikos and didn’t bond with any of them. Also tried out a bunch of different brands but none of them felt like a Rolex on the wrist.

I’m sure they’re incredibly fine watches but to spend almost Rolex money for one? I just can’t do it. Omega is the closest I will come to buying a non Rolex watch.