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Old 8 August 2020, 07:35 AM   #1
SeeDweller
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Chrono24 - SCAM!! "mgraves81" or "Michael H"

I never thought I'd be the guy to write this, but here I am...
I just got burned........

I've been SO proud of our glorious and amazingly friendly group of Rolex folks in the world, and I just got sloppy. But most of all, I ignored LOTS of warning signs, the most important of which - - - I FELT this wasn't going well, but I hit the "Send Money" button anyway. Very, very stupid....

Saw a listing for a brand-new Super-Jubilee SS Bracelet 83600, so I went to Chrono24:
https://www.chrono24.com/search/inde...soryTypes=2000

You can see the price varies from $2000 up to almost $3000. Well, I see the listing for $1900, from a "Michael H.", private seller, in "United States". The bracelet is brand new in the Rolex box - pics of the box and the numbers on it, etc.!!
His listing:
https://www.chrono24.com/rolex/brace...6628&showAll=1

Sure looked just as legit as the rest of the listings there, and it was $500 less! I contacted him through the C-24 messaging, and the next thing you know, he invites me to connect through a private e-mail: <mgraves81@yahoo.com>. We write back and forth, but I'm already noting that he has LONG delays for every response, and I ask him to just let us talk on the phone, briefly.
For some reason . . .. we can't make a phone connection, but we CAN text. Again, there's LONG delays between every comment, and when I asked him what was going on, he says, "It's 1 in the morning, and I'm trying not to fall asleep". (We had started this early in the afternoon, but his 3 hour delays worked us later and later . . . ). Anyway, I felt bad, and he then said if I just send the $1900 by PayPal, we can avoid the C-24 fees and I should do it as a "Friend" option with PayPal, too.

I hesitated, then I pressed the button. (Bad move...)
Ten minutes later, I get the text: "Payment Received. I will forward tracking as soon as I have it. Thanks for working with me".
And that's the last I ever heard from him. The next day, I'm sending him a text, then an e-mail, then a C-24 message, all simply asking if he was going to send it over the weekend, or wait 'till Monday. And no response.
Then the listing on C-24 was cancelled, saying "This item has already been sold"
Two days later, on Monday (5 days ago), I continued to reach out. No response.
I'ts been a week now. Nothing.

Of course, . . . I'm screwed.
The PayPal "Dispute Center" says, "There was no unauthorized transaction". And that's true. (I authorized it, but didn't use their "pay for services or goods")
The Chrono24 folks have been ultra-cold in their professionality, and will not release anything about this seller on their site, stating that they "will provide further identifying information, only if requested by law enforcement".

So, it's a whole lot less money than a watch - THAT'S for sure! But I am forever burned by this, and will probably never do a cash deal with a Private Seller again. Too bad, because I own about 10 watches that I've done exactly that way, and never a mishap . . . until now.

By the way, any suggestions? Anyone with investigative skills enough to help me localize this guy, and at least file a Police report?
At the very least, watch out for "Michael H." on any of these sales forums.
His text / phone number: 716-202-1952. The cell phone identified that in "Hamburg, New York"
His e-mail: mgraves81@yahoo.com. The PayPal account went to "Monique Graves"
When I asked, he texted, "That's my wife's name"

Any and all help would be appreciated, Amigos!! Thank you!!!
Love being a part of this happy, devoted, and trustworthy family!!!
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'67 5512 (Sub., Matte, meters 1st) ..|..... '72 1655 (Explorer II, Freccione)
'72 1675 (GMT, Pepsi bezel) ..........|..'03 16610LV (Submariner, Kermit)
'21 116506 (Daytona, Blue dial)..|..... '22 116508 (Daytona, Green dial)
'21 126619LB (Submariner, Blue) ...|... '20 126710-BLNR (GMT-II, Batgirl)

.... and still trying to scratch that itch!.....
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Old 8 August 2020, 08:38 AM   #2
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Sorry to hear. That phone number, if searched on peoplesearchnow is an 80 year old female! I hope this works out for you!

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Old 8 August 2020, 09:11 AM   #3
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Sorry to hear this, I’m searching out my first Rolex and this is the fear that is all but ruling out buying online

I hope you make progress with it
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Old 8 August 2020, 10:47 AM   #4
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I’m sorry to hear that. I have heard lots of horror stories from chrono 24. Glad you didn’t lose a ton of money. I will never use that site because of scammers taking advantage of people. I get you could get scammed anywhere but I just don’t trust sites like that who don’t hold their inventory. Hopefully you can file a report with the police.
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Old 8 August 2020, 10:53 AM   #5
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Unfortunately sending cash to a private seller on C24 without using their escrow was a bad move, not sure why you didn’t if you were paying same price. Only time I would send cash is to a dealer with good feedback and research done.

Live and learn I suppose!


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Old 8 August 2020, 11:02 AM   #6
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Thanks for sharing the embarrassment of your story, Bob; that could not have been easy.

Just goes to show that even the best of us can have the occasional "brain fart".

Hopefully your post will give others pause to recall your unfortunate action.
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Old 8 August 2020, 11:54 AM   #7
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Sucks so bad bro! Sorry to hear this


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Old 8 August 2020, 12:13 PM   #8
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You really did all of the wrong things here lol. Avoided the escrow and sent PP via friends?! The only think i could think of is contacting PayPal, but this one might be a loss. Luckily it’s a smaller loss than getting burned on a watch, but it still sucks.

I haven’t been burned but I’ve sent some sketchy money of the years. Hope it works out for you.


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Old 8 August 2020, 04:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surrounded21 View Post
Sorry to hear. That phone number, if searched on peoplesearchnow is an 80 year old female! I hope this works out for you!

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Thank you for that investigation! That could be a start...

Did it give any information about that 80 y.o. female? (could be his mother, or ???). Anything will help me (or the Police, if I can get them the least bit interested)

Come to think of it . . . I DO know a fellow Rolex enthusiast who is a Detective with the Sacramento PD! Maybe we'll have a little chat? ;-)

Again, anything you come up with could be useful. Thank you SO much for your help!
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'67 5512 (Sub., Matte, meters 1st) ..|..... '72 1655 (Explorer II, Freccione)
'72 1675 (GMT, Pepsi bezel) ..........|..'03 16610LV (Submariner, Kermit)
'21 116506 (Daytona, Blue dial)..|..... '22 116508 (Daytona, Green dial)
'21 126619LB (Submariner, Blue) ...|... '20 126710-BLNR (GMT-II, Batgirl)

.... and still trying to scratch that itch!.....
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Old 8 August 2020, 04:53 PM   #10
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Just go to the website peoplesearchnow.com and you can in phone numbers and names adresses and get a bunch of info. Good luck

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Old 8 August 2020, 05:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDenver View Post
Sorry to hear this, I’m searching out my first Rolex and this is the fear that is all but ruling out buying online

I hope you make progress with it
Hey, Mr. Denver (in Scotland!):

DON'T let this deter you from seeking out good and reputable dealers on-line, because there's LOT'S of them! And please understand that I have bought about 2 dozen fine watches over the past 5-6 years with NO previous bad experiences . . . not even a little!

When you're dealing with the likes of DavidSW, or Craft& Tailored, or Jacek (Tropical Watch Co.), or Michael Morgan (Iconic Watch Co), or many, many others . . . you've got great folks standing behind what they sell. Believe me, they would NOT want someone writing a bad story about them on-line, and would do ANYTHING to avoid that happening! Their reputation has been built by treating folks squarely, and having the international Rolex enthusiast population know them and see their honesty and integrity play through.

There's an old line in this business . . . "When you buy vintage Rolex, you are buying the seller". And it is VERY true.
I really lost my marbles with this one.
I really just got greedy, and tried to save a few hundred bucks.
That's the truth.
And it cost me a couple grand.
Stupid.
But a lesson learned.

So, carry on, my friend! This is a wonderful and very gratifying world of Rolex family out there, and TRF is a good place to meet and greet them. Enjoy!!
And wear your first Rolex (which you'll never forget) in good health!!
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'67 5512 (Sub., Matte, meters 1st) ..|..... '72 1655 (Explorer II, Freccione)
'72 1675 (GMT, Pepsi bezel) ..........|..'03 16610LV (Submariner, Kermit)
'21 116506 (Daytona, Blue dial)..|..... '22 116508 (Daytona, Green dial)
'21 126619LB (Submariner, Blue) ...|... '20 126710-BLNR (GMT-II, Batgirl)

.... and still trying to scratch that itch!.....
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Old 8 August 2020, 05:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by surrounded21 View Post
Just go to the website peoplesearchnow.com and you can in phone numbers and names adresses and get a bunch of info. Good luck

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Thank you again, amigo. I'll try it!
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'67 5512 (Sub., Matte, meters 1st) ..|..... '72 1655 (Explorer II, Freccione)
'72 1675 (GMT, Pepsi bezel) ..........|..'03 16610LV (Submariner, Kermit)
'21 116506 (Daytona, Blue dial)..|..... '22 116508 (Daytona, Green dial)
'21 126619LB (Submariner, Blue) ...|... '20 126710-BLNR (GMT-II, Batgirl)

.... and still trying to scratch that itch!.....
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Old 8 August 2020, 05:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeDweller View Post
Hey, Mr. Denver (in Scotland!):

DON'T let this deter you from seeking out good and reputable dealers on-line, because there's LOT'S of them! And please understand that I have bought about 2 dozen fine watches over the past 5-6 years with NO previous bad experiences . . . not even a little!

When you're dealing with the likes of DavidSW, or Craft& Tailored, or Jacek (Tropical Watch Co.), or Michael Morgan (Iconic Watch Co), or many, many others . . . you've got great folks standing behind what they sell. Believe me, they would NOT want someone writing a bad story about them on-line, and would do ANYTHING to avoid that happening! Their reputation has been built by treating folks squarely, and having the international Rolex enthusiast population know them and see their honesty and integrity play through.

There's an old line in this business . . . "When you buy vintage Rolex, you are buying the seller". And it is VERY true.
I really lost my marbles with this one.
I really just got greedy, and tried to save a few hundred bucks.
That's the truth.
And it cost me a couple grand.
Stupid.
But a lesson learned.

So, carry on, my friend! This is a wonderful and very gratifying world of Rolex family out there, and TRF is a good place to meet and greet them. Enjoy!!
And wear your first Rolex (which you'll never forget) in good health!!
Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed response. I am glad to see how positive you are about it all, you have a very balanced view in regards to the grand scheme of things

I am very excited about this entire process and am doing my best to slow my self down and enjoy it all, it has been great so far.

I will never understand how people can do that and sleep at night but I am glad there are more of us not like that

I hope you find what you were looking for in the first place

Thanks again
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Old 8 August 2020, 07:26 PM   #14
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There is still a chance that it shows up, there can be many legitimate reasons for a delay.
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Old 8 August 2020, 09:06 PM   #15
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The odd part about it all is the next day the post was marked as sold, right?

If someone is scamming wouldn’t they logically leave it up to get more than 1 person?

There were certainly a lot of red flags, thankfully you have a great attitude about it. Finding the 80yr old lady is probably a dead end. Her phone could have been stolen, could have been her old number, could be they spoofed the number and the 80yr old has no idea of what’s going on.

It’s a shame there are people in this world that do things like this. I’m sure you’re taking away something “positive” (life’s lessons don’t always come the way we want them to) from this so it wasn’t necessarily money lost. Good on you for sharing with the community so others around here can hopefully learn and prevent themselves from entering the same situation.

Best of luck OP, keep your chin up!!


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Old 8 August 2020, 09:25 PM   #16
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First, sorry to hear you have been ripped (for now).

But second, NEVER EVER send money through paypal friends option if it is not your friend. Also buying on Chrono24 only from dealers with good reference. I never buy from a private seller. Especially when they do not have good references.

This private seller had all the red flags you should have worry about. Asking to go private through mail, not aswering phone calls, but do answer through text. Responding late on his answers, but reacted quick on receiving the funds.

Paypal isn't going to do anything for you cause of the friends transaction and Chrono24 isn't going to do anything for you also, because you didn't use their messaging system and their escrow service.

It's over....you lost your money and i am sorry to tell you this. Please learn from it.
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Old 8 August 2020, 09:36 PM   #17
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You could have sent PayPal payment as “goods and services” and just added 3% to cover the fee. You would have been able to get a refund from PayPal.

$57 (3%) would have saved you here. Should have sent $1957 payment as goods and services
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Old 8 August 2020, 11:18 PM   #18
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You could have sent PayPal payment as “goods and services” and just added 3% to cover the fee. You would have been able to get a refund from PayPal.

$57 (3%) would have saved you here. Should have sent $1957 payment as goods and services

Yeah, im pretty sure OP understands that at this juncture.


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Old 9 August 2020, 03:00 AM   #19
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Hi Seedweller,
Appreciate the effort and thanks for sharing your story. Hope you get to nail the bastard and get your money back.
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Old 9 August 2020, 03:01 AM   #20
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I sent you a PM, check it.
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Old 9 August 2020, 06:56 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surrounded21 View Post
Sorry to hear. That phone number, if searched on peoplesearchnow is an 80 year old female! I hope this works out for you!

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Oooooops . . . . the number I put is incorrrect (by one digit).

The number used by "Michael H." (on Chrono24) is actually: 716-202-0952

... and when I use the search function on "PeopleSearchNow", it says it can't find that number, anywhere...

Bummer.

Thank you ALL for your empathy, and your good humor (and helping me to find mine......). Life is such a blessing, and I'll get past this.
But for now . . . I'm still interested in nailing this guy, or at least, getting the bracelet!
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'67 5512 (Sub., Matte, meters 1st) ..|..... '72 1655 (Explorer II, Freccione)
'72 1675 (GMT, Pepsi bezel) ..........|..'03 16610LV (Submariner, Kermit)
'21 116506 (Daytona, Blue dial)..|..... '22 116508 (Daytona, Green dial)
'21 126619LB (Submariner, Blue) ...|... '20 126710-BLNR (GMT-II, Batgirl)

.... and still trying to scratch that itch!.....
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Old 9 August 2020, 07:07 AM   #22
SeeDweller
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Handey0465: You could have sent PayPal payment as “goods and services” and just added 3% to cover the fee. You would have been able to get a refund from PayPal.
$57 (3%) would have saved you here. Should have sent $1957 payment as goods and services


Quote:
Originally Posted by GGGMT View Post
. Yeah, im pretty sure OP understands that at this juncture.
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Actually, he makes an excellent suggestion! Even if I want to go outside of Chrono24, make sure the PayPal is for "Goods and Services", and just offer to pay the 3% if there's any question. Great thought.
But as GGGMT says . . . I've learned my lesson, so I think I'll just play it pretty straight for now.

And . . . .just bought a BEAUTIFUL older 1803 YG DayDate from none other than Michael Morgan!! It's truly in condition that is honestly described as NOS - - unbelievably clean, with the green sticker kind of falling off the back! How refreshing it is to simply wire the money, and know (beyond all doubts) that I'm playing with a straight-shooter.
Reputation really IS everything!
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'67 5512 (Sub., Matte, meters 1st) ..|..... '72 1655 (Explorer II, Freccione)
'72 1675 (GMT, Pepsi bezel) ..........|..'03 16610LV (Submariner, Kermit)
'21 116506 (Daytona, Blue dial)..|..... '22 116508 (Daytona, Green dial)
'21 126619LB (Submariner, Blue) ...|... '20 126710-BLNR (GMT-II, Batgirl)

.... and still trying to scratch that itch!.....
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Old 9 August 2020, 07:34 AM   #23
SeeDweller
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I sent you a PM, check it.
Good to talk to you on the phone!
Thank you for trying to help.

Too bad that lead didn't work out.
Good luck to you, too!
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Bob
'67 5512 (Sub., Matte, meters 1st) ..|..... '72 1655 (Explorer II, Freccione)
'72 1675 (GMT, Pepsi bezel) ..........|..'03 16610LV (Submariner, Kermit)
'21 116506 (Daytona, Blue dial)..|..... '22 116508 (Daytona, Green dial)
'21 126619LB (Submariner, Blue) ...|... '20 126710-BLNR (GMT-II, Batgirl)

.... and still trying to scratch that itch!.....
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Old 9 August 2020, 02:51 PM   #24
1665fan
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Any man that tells you to send something in a woman’s name is pretty much a scam off the jump....scammers suck and I hope he gets caught! Chrono24 sucks for not trying to help you out....
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Old 10 August 2020, 11:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supernova View Post
Unfortunately sending cash to a private seller on C24 without using their escrow was a bad move, not sure why you didn’t if you were paying same price. Only time I would send cash is to a dealer with good feedback and research done.

Live and learn I suppose!


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Not to pour salt on the wound but that right there would have stopped me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handey0465 View Post
You could have sent PayPal payment as “goods and services” and just added 3% to cover the fee. You would have been able to get a refund from PayPal.

$57 (3%) would have saved you here. Should have sent $1957 payment as goods and services
That's what I always do when someone tells me that they don't want to pay the fees... small price for peace of mind.
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