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Old 6 November 2019, 09:32 PM   #511
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Wasn't the 5522 limited to 500 or so pieces? I would think that contributes to its price appreciation moreso than the initial price to entry. The 5524, for instance, gets around a 20% haircut on the secondary market.
No it was the price, the 500 release was helpful but the price was what really got people's juices flowing, esp those who were buying grand comps and who shouldn't have had any interest in such a lowly, simple anti-Patek watch. That was when I knew price was such an important factor, it wasn't just getting the buy on credit boys, it was getting the high rollers too - a perfect storm of demand and that's why this market has sustained itself for so long, probably to everyone's surprise.

5524 was a price riser after the 5524 but that watch has more aesthetic issues, like the pushers which is the Ody bracelet equivalent, and a higher retail and more competition at that price, so that has gone on to struggle.
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Old 6 November 2019, 09:46 PM   #512
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No it was the price, the 500 release was helpful but the price was what really got people's juices flowing, esp those who were buying grand comps and who shouldn't have had any interest in such a lowly, simple anti-Patek watch. That was when I knew price was such an important factor, it wasn't just getting the buy on credit boys, it was getting the high rollers too - a perfect storm of demand and that's why this market has sustained itself for so long, probably to everyone's surprise.

5524 was a price riser after the 5524 but that watch has more aesthetic issues, like the pushers which is the Ody bracelet equivalent, and a higher retail and more competition at that price, so that has gone on to struggle.
A lot of those 5522 customers bought on price speculation for a limited run PP watch; you were guaranteed to make money. This is evidenced by the massive amount of 5522s on the secondary market right now.
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Old 6 November 2019, 10:17 PM   #513
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Like I said I think you are living in the past, so is Lange, which is why I am not surprised they have gone with a high price, just like with the AP Code and VCO, while the hot brands like PP sports and Rolex have been underpricing their recent offerings and we see how sought after they are.

So I am comparing the 5522 and the Dato to illustrate how today's market works, the Dato is twice the watch the Pilot is but the Pilot is the hot watch not the Dato and that is all due to the price, it certainly is not aesthetically very popular and got lots of criticism for looking cheap and like a Zenith etc, very similar reception for the AP Code, another overpriced watch that is not doing well, while the 5522 has very strong resale.

And the knock on effect of the 5522 was the 5524 also had a great start and lots of interest and so have all the Patek sports, which is why Lange and AP should have thought of the family to come when pricing this, and not just about making the maximum revenue right now. Yes Lange make far fewer watches and the novelty factor of this watch will probably mean they sell almost all they make, but with so much criticism of the watch and without the attractive price they have made this release and the future of the family not as successful as it could have been had they had a more modern strategy to pricing.
I'm not sure what planet you are on to suggest Patek is underpricing it's current pieces? Current demand is despite price increases not because of an underpricing policy. Also you are conveniently mixing around your release times, 5524 came out long before the 5522 and the 5522 is most certainly popular because it is steel and limited to 600 pieces. The price of this piece new was very reasonable, but given it was limited to 600 pieces and not representative of a family it could clearly be priced at any point PP chose without fear of affecting sales of other ongoing pieces. I tried to get one at the time.
The problem with your price argument is that Lange cannot ramp up production to make a lower priced piece work when you take into account the level of finishing. There is no point selling every piece you make at a loss (taking into account development costs etc) - yet even you are suggesting Lange will sell all they can make.
What is your point? Do you want one but at a cheaper price?
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Old 6 November 2019, 11:02 PM   #514
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I'm not sure what planet you are on to suggest Patek is underpricing it's current pieces? Current demand is despite price increases not because of an underpricing policy. Also you are conveniently mixing around your release times, 5524 came out long before the 5522 and the 5522 is most certainly popular because it is steel and limited to 600 pieces. The price of this piece new was very reasonable, but given it was limited to 600 pieces and not representative of a family it could clearly be priced at any point PP chose without fear of affecting sales of other ongoing pieces. I tried to get one at the time.
The problem with your price argument is that Lange cannot ramp up production to make a lower priced piece work when you take into account the level of finishing. There is no point selling every piece you make at a loss (taking into account development costs etc) - yet even you are suggesting Lange will sell all they can make.
What is your point? Do you want one but at a cheaper price?
My language was a bit loose, for Patek I was referring to the 5522 and Rolex the SS SkyD and CE Daytona and Pepsi as underpriced, not the very latest releases but those around 2/3 years ago that coincided with the hype breakout. Since then Patek have, and Rolex should have, raised prices on some hot sports models.

I wasn't that interested in the 5522 but at a price of around £17K I was certainly tempted but I don't buy on price, unlike many it seems, and the same with the Odysseus, I like the dial but not the bracelet but if this was priced a few grand less then I might have overlooked that, as many here have stated already. I'm pretty sure Lange could still have made a decent margin at a lower price point and that would have helped the other models, if this was a one time thing then I understand maximising revenue for that piece, but they have other models coming and the whole brand could do with a boost and this watch getting hot would have made that happen. Let this watch take one for the team, much like the Daytona does for Rolex, they could easily take much more revenue but they manipulate that to help the brand.

You can always raise prices if demand goes thru the roof, like PP have done fairly recently, but you can't lower it without alot of anger, like AP did a few years ago on their PM pieces, so the smart play again is to underprice.
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Old 6 November 2019, 11:09 PM   #515
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A lot of those 5522 customers bought on price speculation for a limited run PP watch; you were guaranteed to make money. This is evidenced by the massive amount of 5522s on the secondary market right now.
If it had been 500/600 run at £25K this would not have sold that well, but a crazy nice price of £17K, cheaper than a Nautilus I seem to remember, made this a huge hit. You would need a really limited 100 run at that price to achieve the same effect.
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Old 7 November 2019, 02:21 AM   #516
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I find these price discussions a bit funny.

I am pretty sure that considering all the efforts that Lange is putting make a price of 21k impossible and they will certainly not cut their margins on a watch that will be sold out for years to come.

Not sure if the ‚only insta perception counts or added selling value‘ really is valid.

Many of us are here because they appreciate the effort and quality, regardless of grey market value, which only feeds the flippers and dealers instead of putting ALS into a better position financially.
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Old 7 November 2019, 03:07 AM   #517
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I find these price discussions a bit funny.

I am pretty sure that considering all the efforts that Lange is putting make a price of 21k impossible and they will certainly not cut their margins on a watch that will be sold out for years to come.

Not sure if the ‚only insta perception counts or added selling value‘ really is valid.

Many of us are here because they appreciate the effort and quality, regardless of grey market value, which only feeds the flippers and dealers instead of putting ALS into a better position financially.
While I fully agree that neither resale, nor insta cred should inform what you should be willing to pay for a watch, the fact remains that “all the efforts” can be purchased from brands like VC at similar or higher quality of finish for between 17-21k list. I still have the feeling that for all the self confidence Lange lacked in feeling they needed to add these pushers, they are perhaps a bit overconfident with their pricing, solely compared to other similar offerings. Not entirely sure it’ll be as sold out as people make it out to be. Wouldn’t rule out that Lange could make more of these then is commercially sensible... after all, they do so with essentially all their other watches too. They even have Lange watches in the sale section at one of my ADs. But who knows, I still have hope that they finally learn to control distribution, and maybe this is where it’ll happen.
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Old 7 November 2019, 01:01 PM   #518
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The reason why Lange priced the watch at $28k is because it is near the price of Nautilus. There was a marketing study conducted by I believe an MBA student. He talked to people at Lange and told him they set prices comparable to Patek.
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Old 7 November 2019, 01:22 PM   #519
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The reason why Lange priced the watch at $28k is because it is near the price of Nautilus. There was a marketing study conducted by I believe an MBA student. He talked to people at Lange and told him they set prices comparable to Patek.
Indeed.

That said, and I mean no disrespect to Lange, but the Nautilus is one of the most popular lines of sport watches ever, and it is backed by the popularity and pedigree of Patek.

Lange is delusional if it thinks it can hang with Patek right now.

If they build themselves up properly, they can one day. Not today.

That said, these will all sell.
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Old 7 November 2019, 03:22 PM   #520
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Indeed.

That said, and I mean no disrespect to Lange, but the Nautilus is one of the most popular lines of sport watches ever, and it is backed by the popularity and pedigree of Patek.

Lange is delusional if it thinks it can hang with Patek right now.

If they build themselves up properly, they can one day. Not today.

That said, these will all sell.
I'm surprised they priced that high as Lange seems to price most of their watches pretty competitively vs Patek (i.e. the 1815 chrono is ~55k vs the 73k for the 5172).

I think the quality and finishing of Lange (for similar pieces) is a notch above Patek's; however, I agree, you have to into account brand equity and the cost to build that. Rolex is the perfect example - all those ads and sponsorships don't come cheap and are taken into account in pricing.

I think Lange is taking the right steps, they are suring up their distribution, as well as expanding their social media presence. Next step is getting their watches on the wrists of "influencers" and celebs. Some may scoff, but it works, look at Richard Miille.

Lange needs to be doing more of this

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Old 7 November 2019, 03:39 PM   #521
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Lange needs to be doing more of this
Some may scoff, but I agree. No one cares about Lange except the die hard fans/collectors, and that's not how you really make it big.

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ISome may scoff, but it works, look at Richard Miille.
That said, what they're doing is not quite good enough. Richard Mille only got to where he is because he quickly lined up athlete and celebrity ambassadors. The level his product is pushed is astonishing in comparison.

After all, he does admit he's not a watchmaker, he's a marketer.

Lange doesn't have that.
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Old 8 November 2019, 04:54 AM   #522
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Some may scoff, but I agree. No one cares about Lange except the die hard fans/collectors, and that's not how you really make it big.



That said, what they're doing is not quite good enough. Richard Mille only got to where he is because he quickly lined up athlete and celebrity ambassadors. The level his product is pushed is astonishing in comparison.

After all, he does admit he's not a watchmaker, he's a marketer.

Lange doesn't have that.
I wonder how much say Richemont has in Lange's overall brand/marketing strategy. They're a large conglomerate and have many other brands, so it makes sense to view Lange as just a piece of their portfolio. They may be happy to keep production low and the brand niche, and spend their capital promoting other brands like Cartier, IWC, and VC.
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Old 8 November 2019, 05:21 AM   #523
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Well,
I have my ears open in Germany for this watch. I grew up in the Lange region and was always looking for one, but still too you for the classic Lange's.
In times of where every steel AP or so is an hunted piece I truly believe that Lange will be successful.
Once rumor is around that its an hard to get item people would look into 1815 and so as well.
Same as PP! Mr. Stein can say what he wants, without the Nautilus there would be less interest in lots of other watches of their portfolio! I find Langes step more than logic and wish them all the best of luck with that! btw, ive been already in their museum - I can recommend this to everyone!
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Old 11 November 2019, 12:26 AM   #524
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Wow, Lange really jumped the shark on this one, most boring looking watch they ever produced IMO.
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Old 11 November 2019, 08:12 AM   #525
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i love lange, amazing brand, but this new sports watch has caused me to rethink even purchasing a dress watch from them. I just dont know the brands' future, given the current lineup. Do we know if the brand is viable financially and annual sales volume? The watches are amazing, just getting some cold feet.
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Old 11 November 2019, 08:51 AM   #526
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i love lange, amazing brand, but this new sports watch has caused me to rethink even purchasing a dress watch from them. I just dont know the brands' future, given the current lineup. Do we know if the brand is viable financially and annual sales volume? The watches are amazing, just getting some cold feet.
I’m not sure I understand a single point you are making?
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Old 11 November 2019, 09:04 AM   #527
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Yeah, that was a pretty incoherent statement, kind of like the design language of some watches, which will not be named to protect the innocent.

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I’m not sure I understand a single point you are making?
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Old 11 November 2019, 09:13 AM   #528
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i love lange, amazing brand, but this new sports watch has caused me to rethink even purchasing a dress watch from them. I just dont know the brands' future, given the current lineup. Do we know if the brand is viable financially and annual sales volume? The watches are amazing, just getting some cold feet.
Lange is owned by very rich Richemont , so probably not going away anytime soon.

However, there is still a real but quite small (IMHO) risk that Richemont longer term might force Lange into implementing some combination of the madness their other brands have recently been guilty of in the hunt for increased short-term sales and profit:
  1. Add increasing number of new models / lines without necessarily respecting brand DNA & established product lines and massively confusing customers and repelling WIS collectors in the process (e.g. JLC / IWC etc.)
  2. Flood the market with volume (and then have to physically destroy excess stock )
  3. Dilute and confuse brand values by compromising long standing always-highest-level quality / finishing philosophy - e.g. by introducing lower-end entry level lines below normal brand standards (best example is Vacheron's entry level Fiftysix with non-Geneva seal modified Cartier / ValFleurier movement )
  4. Offer mind numbing number of so-called limited / special editions which are produced in the hundreds (or even thousands) of pieces and thus not really limited at all (e.g. IWC/JLC)

I hope none of the above will ever befall Lange (especially a combination of 2. and 3. could kill everything that makes Lange special).

But so far life is still good and Lange remains fairly independent in the spirit of Walter Lange. Current Lange watches remain highly engineered hand finished works of art at very attractive prices for what you actually get*...so grab one while you can!

*) Even the Odysseus is (despite its to-some slightly clunky bracelet / case aesthetics ) a realisation of the absolute highest level of high horology. Both movement + case, bracelet and dial levels of finishing are still as good as (or better than) the best Switzerland can produce
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Old 11 November 2019, 09:36 AM   #529
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Thanks yes, you said it well. Nice watches, but the direction and DNA is changing. Hopefully for the good! They are Beautiful watches, hopefully new direction doesnt make it become like IWC, or roger dubuis or piaget. Hard to tell with richemont. Time will tell.
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Old 24 November 2019, 09:05 PM   #530
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I have now tried on the watch and will admit it's not the watch for me. It still feels very chunky on the wrist and the case is like all the other ALS cases. They lack refinement. I think the bracelet looks a bit ugly..not sure if its the wide shoulders. The dial is nice and function intriguing. The positive is the drop dead movement. Gosh they can do a movement!!! Fantastic stuff there!!! I think this will be a very popular watch and fills a sports gap for ALS owners who may have gone Patek or AP before. I am not sure it will attract existing owners of Nautili etc. Interesting only from boutiques until 2020 end. That's a subtle way of telling your dealers that Head Office is competition!!! Guess Richmont will be going the boutique model then!!
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Old 22 December 2019, 04:44 PM   #531
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I have now tried on the watch and will admit it's not the watch for me. It still feels very chunky on the wrist and the case is like all the other ALS cases. They lack refinement. I think the bracelet looks a bit ugly..not sure if its the wide shoulders. The dial is nice and function intriguing. The positive is the drop dead movement. Gosh they can do a movement!!! Fantastic stuff there!!! I think this will be a very popular watch and fills a sports gap for ALS owners who may have gone Patek or AP before. I am not sure it will attract existing owners of Nautili etc. Interesting only from boutiques until 2020 end. That's a subtle way of telling your dealers that Head Office is competition!!! Guess Richmont will be going the boutique model then!!
I had the exact opposite feeling! I was fairly underwhelmed with the press photos but I had the chance to handle one yesterday and the watch really impressed me. Im not a very dress watch sort of guy, but this strikes an excellent balance of being sporty but on the dressier side. I was most intrigued with the details and finishing of the dial and case. The pushers onthe side are are almost indistinguishable as pushers. Really love the dial.

However the bracelet was OK. I feel it was a slight opportunity missed tho not ugly by any means, just not as distinguished I guess. I was however impressed with the functionality of the bracelet and the amount of tech they packed into it despite Lange being such a classic type of brand.
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Old 19 January 2020, 03:51 PM   #532
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Any idea when are deliveries expected to start for boutique customers (those that have placed an order post-launch rather than pre-allocated)? Anyone placed an order with expected delivery date?
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Old 19 January 2020, 07:30 PM   #533
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Wow, Lange really jumped the shark on this one, most boring looking watch they ever produced IMO.
I guess that the same has been said when PP introduced the Aquanaut?
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Old 29 February 2020, 10:52 PM   #534
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Tried it on at the boutique for first time. Loved it. As others have said It looks better in person and I thought the bracelet looked good and was very comfortable. Offered to buy one on the spot to see it I got lucky but obviously at this point you have to be an established Lange client and I just don’t do bundles. Still, nice watch! Sorry about the pic being sideways as I forgot to take it with the horizontally with the phone
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Old 1 March 2020, 12:04 AM   #535
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Tried it on at the boutique for first time. Loved it. As others have said It looks better in person and I thought the bracelet looked good and was very comfortable. Offered to buy one on the spot to see it I got lucky but obviously at this point you have to be an established Lange client and I just don’t do bundles. Still, nice watch! Sorry about the pic being sideways as I forgot to take it with the horizontally with the phone
From what I have been told at the boutique in Moscow you have to be a Lange boutique customer to order one - I am a Lange owner, but bought via AD so wasn’t even able to put in an order.

At the same time though the boutique told me that incoming enquiries about it had drop to close to zero and they were hoping for a policy change after (the now cancelled) Watches & Wonders show.

Will see what happens.
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Old 1 March 2020, 12:10 AM   #536
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That policy will be out the door asap. There is zero momentum behind it.
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Old 1 March 2020, 12:20 AM   #537
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That policy will be out the door asap. There is zero momentum behind it.
I am going to test this theory out today at one of the boutiques. I was promised one, then unpromised it. I want to see if there is any softening.
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Old 1 March 2020, 12:50 AM   #538
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That policy will be out the door asap. There is zero momentum behind it.
There is currently an application form in the Uk that has to be submitted to the factory listing all currently owned Langes if you wish to be considered.
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Old 1 March 2020, 01:32 AM   #539
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That policy will be out the door asap. There is zero momentum behind it.
Based on how many they can actually produce, not sure this policy will change. As always different parts of the world have different demand levels. When you factor that Lange only makes 5 to 6k watches in total a year. The factory is at capacity already. Not sure how many of these they can make a year, then spread across the 20 or so boutiques they have. I am lucky to own one and it has impressed me the more I wear it. It is definitely better in person than in pictures. Here on one of the few straps it fits.
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Old 1 March 2020, 02:11 AM   #540
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Based on how many they can actually produce, not sure this policy will change. As always different parts of the world have different demand levels. When you factor that Lange only makes 5 to 6k watches in total a year. The factory is at capacity already. Not sure how many of these they can make a year, then spread across the 20 or so boutiques they have. I am lucky to own one and it has impressed me the more I wear it. It is definitely better in person than in pictures. Here on one of the few straps it fits.
If they produce and sell it on a blue rubber strap like this in the future I think that would be a game changer. That is freaking awesome on the rubber strap as compared to the bracelet. Well done and congrats!
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