H. Moser & Cie - general thoughts

[carlhaluss]

Honestly, one of the best values of the high end watches. And some of the most beautiful. I am fortunate to own the Endeavour Small Seconds white gold with fume dial. Some pics that I took wearing it today:

H. Moser & Cie Endeavour Small Seconds, white gold, fume dial, kudu leather strap:











We are lucky in Vancouver to have the only AD in Canada. And very fortunate they had this model. Hope you get the opportunity to see them in real life.

Cheers,
Carl

[bigfatpauli]

I really liked their Perpetual when it came out, however, after getting a feel for the management of the company (after the "Swiss Icon" trainwreck) and their arrogance, I would never ever consider one.

They can keep the Apple knock offs and watches made of cheese.

[carlhaluss]

Originally Posted by JonnyH83

Thank you for your input. Always nice to get feedback from someone who owns one of the timepieces of interest.

I have pulled the trigger and put a deposit on the Venturer WG white dial small seconds. I fell in love with the simplicity but yet timeless look of it also.

I am fully aware about the re-sale value but to be completely honest - that doesn't bother me in the slightest. I love the watch and will not be getting rid of it.

Will put up some pics once I get her!

Excellent! Sorry, I must have missed this post when I posted mine. Congratulations! I think you made a very sound choice. A watch is not an investment, and you were right to go with your heart instead of what it might bring in resale. Look forward to pics when you receive it.

Cheers,
Carl

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

I really liked their Perpetual when it came out, however, after getting a feel for the management of the company (after the "Swiss Icon" trainwreck) and their arrogance, I would never ever consider one.

They can keep the Apple knock offs and watches made of cheese.

What drew you away is what drew me in. If you call having a sense of humor and poking fun of stuffy, rigid, old guard watch companies “arrogant”, then I guess I’m arrogant as well.

Also, the point of the i-watch case was to poke fun at the notion that smart watches will be the death of traditional watchmaking. But, I see you missed the point, so call it what you will.

I find this company to be a breath of fresh air. I laugh at stodgy, traditional elitists who permeat this hobby, trying to make it something more than it is. I hope this company, and it’s management never change.

[AlyRba]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

I really liked their Perpetual when it came out, however, after getting a feel for the management of the company (after the "Swiss Icon" trainwreck) and their arrogance, I would never ever consider one.

They can keep the Apple knock offs and watches made of cheese.

I think you may have misinterpreted the marketing campaign in the wrong way. They take dig at various aspects of Swiss watch industry that they feel are wrong (only 50-60% of the components have to be produced in Switzerland for the Swiss label, Patek positioning their watches for the next generation etc.). At no point I feel that their marketing is snobbish, rather I feel it fresh and a different take on the watch collecting hobby.

I shared my experience earlier. I recently received an Endeavor Center Seconds that had a screw missing. I am not sure where did the screw fell off, when the watch was stored at the AD or during shipping. Anyways, Moser offered to send the replacement screw, complementary watch screwdriver, and few straps. I told the AD it was unacceptable for a new watch. He was able to get in touch with directly the CEO, Edouard Meylan, who agreed to replace the watch with a brand new one. The watch is on its way from Switzerland to the AD as we speak.

On the other hand, I also have a Patek 5711 white dial which was bought last year after a 1 year+ wait at the AD. The watch has never been worn. After noticing an abnormal sound with the rotor, I sent it to Patek service agency in New York. I was told that the watch had less-than-desired oil in movement and a service will be performed. The watch was returned to me last week with scratches on the bezel and caseback. Now, I will begin my long fight with Patek to have the right thing done in this case, have the watch replaced. I will let you how it goes.

I am sharing these 2 above examples to tell you about Moser's stellar customer service. I am not so optimistic about Patek doing the right thing in this regards.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by carlhaluss

Honestly, one of the best values of the high end watches. And some of the most beautiful. I am fortunate to own the Endeavour Small Seconds white gold with fume dial. Some pics that I took wearing it today...

As always, excellent pics Carl.

[Starwalker]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

I really liked their Perpetual when it came out, however, after getting a feel for the management of the company (after the "Swiss Icon" trainwreck) and their arrogance, I would never ever consider one.

They can keep the Apple knock offs and watches made of cheese.

They are anything but arrogant. The management is humble, customer orientated and genuine. I think you need to meet them to get a feel for them, otherwise you're really just judging a book by the cover.

[endo]

Originally Posted by Starwalker

They are anything but arrogant. The management is humble, customer orientated and genuine. I think you need to meet them to get a feel for them, otherwise you're really just judging a book by the cover.

+1
Arrogant is the last thing that Moser is, The guys who work there are very real and genuine watch enthusiasts and pretty much bend over backwards to help you out.

Prior to owning a Moser I had read about them and lusted after a PC, but never seen them in the flesh, or even knew where to see one.
It was only after a watchmaker friend of mine allowed me to sit in on a meeting with Moser and a prospective AD that I got to handle them, and meet the guys behind the brand.

Unlike any other rep/employee of other watch companies I've met, Moser's rep Nicholas was happy to discuss other brands from Seiko up, and his own personal collection (made up of various brands) with absolutely no snobbery or indoctrinated company line. Yes there is a lot of pride in what they do, which they rightly deserve, but they also understand it's not an insular industry. Much like the field I work in you have to respect and appreciate you're competitors to understand what you need to do to grow and improve.
So overall a good day, and I got to handle some Mosers.

Six months later I finally got my first Moser, nothing exiting just a Pioneer Center Seconds in Steel that had been launched that Basel. I thought it was a good entry into the brand rather than leaping head first into the unknown (plus it's steel, so I could run it daily)
Despite owning essentially the "cheapest" Moser going, I wasn't treated any different to a person that had spent six figures. I had a congrats via Wassap, and a warm welcome to the Moser family from Ed.

A few months later, after chatting with the local collectors I meet up, we though for a joke, why not invite the Moser guys to a GTG in Scotland.
Unbelievably they accepted, and the next thing we know we're drinking whisky with a nice collection of Moser's and their watchmaker Oliver. Of course being a watchmaker he has a love of watches and rather than just being sat down in corporate mode was getting stuck in on the action, taking wrist shots, discussing vintage Rolex, trying on the odd AP, Seiko, Mille, Panerai etc. Behaving like any guy that love watches would act!
Oliver's Instagram is testament to his love of the Hulk and Daytona lol. (lucky git, he got to build his own Perpetual as well, gorgeous thing)

Of course, when things go wrong, and a companies true colors come out, the customer service speaks volumes on how they respect their clientle,
-I asked after a tool for the leap year correcter as I didn't have one, replacement sent out FOC a week.
-The minute hand on my pioneer had crept a bit, so it was ever so slightly misaligned on the hour, which was ever so noticeable due to the long thin hands, I had a apologies that this had happened in the first place and that it would be corrected asap.
-Servicing is easy to, (at least here) as a friend recently he had his serviced, They had a courier collect the watch, was updated on progress and received handy itemised billing to show the steps of work carried out.

Needless to say, my positive experience of course has spiraled to an ever growing collection...
I now have the Pioneer, 2 Endeavour Perpetuals and purchased a Purple Haze Concept last week. (probably by the time anyone reads this i'll have bought another)

When you're spending serious money on a watch, the value is more than just the trinket that you have on your wrist.
Everyone talks about the AD experience, this is the level above that, where you're not just a number in a sales ledger but a part of the greater family of Moser owners.


On the other hand:
I wish I could say the same about another (nameless) Independant, who everyone fawns after, effectively told to f-off by the brand, after inquiring about a watch or any 2/3 hander with the same grain d'orge movement finishing, (had to be new as it was for my 40th)
Needless to say the past few years of hunting for one, and chasing every lead for a new one has sadly come to a close.. it's just a watch and I'd rather spent my money elsewhere.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

What drew you away is what drew me in. If you call having a sense of humor and poking fun of stuffy, rigid, old guard watch companies “arrogant”, then I guess I’m arrogant as well.

Also, the point of the i-watch case was to poke fun at the notion that smart watches will be the death of traditional watchmaking. But, I see you missed the point, so call it what you will.

I find this company to be a breath of fresh air. I laugh at stodgy, traditional elitists who permeat this hobby, trying to make it something more than it is. I hope this company, and it’s management never change.

I don't know you, so I can't comment on your demeanor, but I sure you are very aware of who and what you are.

So the point of copying, quite literally, the most sold watch was meant to be satire? I suppose then I could argue, in the same vein, that Parnis’ version of the Submariner is meant to poke fun at the 'overpriced' Rolex iteration by offering the same looks for 1/10 the price.

Both the Moser and Parnis, are copying iconic designs, right? Both the Moser and Parnis, like or not, are knock offs. The both shamelessly stole their designs. Both, arguably, feel they have a valid message. So do you support Parnis like you do Moser?

You can spin anything, that doesn't make it correct, clever or of value.

To your (and their) point about the Swiss watch industry being stodgy and stagnant. Maybe some feel that way. Maybe it is true. People will vote with their wallets and many of the watches parodied in the Swiss Icon watch are unobtainable for most customers: people still love, want and wait for them so how stagnant is it?

Further to that, let’s look at real disruptors in the business: Urwerk, MB&F, HYT, Harry Winston and their Opus projects, and so on. These are real disruptors that look at the industry and really, genuinely re-thought the wrist watch from a totally new perspective. These companies are doing today what the parodied Icons did when they were new. They are breaking the norm and blazing new trails.

Blatantly copying a design that you feel is stale is the OPPOSITE of making a change. It is just piggy backing on the hard work and success of others. In fact, I cannot think of a less creative approach. I can appreciate mimicry as flattery, however.

If Moser did one thing that really offered change, I would applaud them. If they made a single iconic watch - Just one – They would have my ear. All I see, however, is them making fun of designs that are bigger than all of Moser, never mind the brands behind the designs or worse yet the visionary’s that broke new ground. If Moser had ability to design something a fraction as iconic as a Royal Oak, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. But they don’t. They instead try and pick on, or bully, the people that built the industry that only, because of them, exists today. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you…

That’s bloody arrogant.

They have not earned their place to make fun of the people and brands that built this industry, and doing so is mean-spirited and low class. I don’t condone that.

Originally Posted by AlyRba

I think you may have misinterpreted the marketing campaign in the wrong way. They take dig at various aspects of Swiss watch industry that they feel are wrong (only 50-60% of the components have to be produced in Switzerland for the Swiss label, Patek positioning their watches for the next generation etc.). At no point I feel that their marketing is snobbish, rather I feel it fresh and a different take on the watch collecting hobby.

I shared my experience earlier. I recently received an Endeavor Center Seconds that had a screw missing. I am not sure where did the screw fell off, when the watch was stored at the AD or during shipping. Anyways, Moser offered to send the replacement screw, complementary watch screwdriver, and few straps. I told the AD it was unacceptable for a new watch. He was able to get in touch with directly the CEO, Edouard Meylan, who agreed to replace the watch with a brand new one. The watch is on its way from Switzerland to the AD as we speak.

On the other hand, I also have a Patek 5711 white dial which was bought last year after a 1 year+ wait at the AD. The watch has never been worn. After noticing an abnormal sound with the rotor, I sent it to Patek service agency in New York. I was told that the watch had less-than-desired oil in movement and a service will be performed. The watch was returned to me last week with scratches on the bezel and caseback. Now, I will begin my long fight with Patek to have the right thing done in this case, have the watch replaced. I will let you how it goes.

I am sharing these 2 above examples to tell you about Moser's stellar customer service. I am not so optimistic about Patek doing the right thing in this regards.

I can't comment on Moser’s customer service, but if it is stellar, that is definitely a feather in their cap and cannot be said of all brands. Good on them.

I'm not sure if I miss-interpreted their marketing message with their 'Swiss Icon' watch, however... I’m quite certain I understand exactly what their marketing message was, moreover, that I understand that there wasn’t a message but it was all a thinly-veiled ploy for free marketing. And a damn good one, I might add. Let me explain.

Here’s what happened:

They *made* the one watch (the Swiss Icon), were going to auction it off, and then donate the funds to the Fondation pour la Culture Horlogère Suisse, to "support apprenticeships in the watchmaking professions and to safeguard expertise in the related watchmaking arts and crafts." A noble cause indeed. After they announced it, and received all the marketing PR that they did, they pulled the plug. Not because they were under legal pressure from, you know, almost all the major Swiss watch brands for IP theft (according to them) but because, “the message was unfortunately sometimes misunderstood.” Do you really believe that AP, Rolex, GP, Patek, Paneri, Hublot, etc. “misunderstood” Moser? Do you think there was no threat of swift legal action from a slew of companies with deep pockets? Do you believe that Patek laughs at the Nautilus? Do you honestly believe that because this was “misunderstood” they scrapped the whole project?

Let's examine that for a minute:

I said *made*. As far as I can tell, they never actually spent the money making the watch, there are just the few press photos of a rendering of the watch. Something like that could be whipped up in an afternoon. Building a whole new caliber takes substantial funds and time. Did they build a new caliber JUST for this, only to just toss it out? We don’t know because no one has seen one, but IF they did invest millions (which is what it takes to build a new tourbillion movement from scratch, and this would have been a new movement) one would suspect we would see it surface in another case, but we haven’t. We also know it takes months, if not years to design and build something like this from the start so they didn’t plan to announce it THEN start working on it. It would have had to have been already in the works for a long time.

Do really you believe that Moser invested millions of dollars, and years of time designing a new caliber, case, dial, etc. and didn’t consider the legal ramifications?

Neither do I.

Did they think that it would cause waves on social media and go viral?

Let’s consider the two possibilities and determine for yourself what you think is more likely. Honestly, try to be objective.

Moser spends millions of dollars and years designing a unique watch only to cancel it in the 11th hour because it was ‘misunderstood’.
-OR-
Moser makes a photo of a watch sure to ruffle a lot of feathers and cause a stir on social media and get people talking about the brand, building awareness of their product for pennies.

I will also remind you that Moser is a for profit business. Also consider how much effort and money some of the top companies on Earth spend trying to make organic viral media.

Again, you decide for yourself what is more likely from a small, young company who says it wants to be a rule breaker.

But even still, say it is the latter. I actually can respect that. That is really clever marketing and does in fact break the mold of the ‘stale Swiss watch industry.’ So maybe in a grand twist of fate, they really did nail their message.

But there is one more thing to consider…

They promised to donate money to the Fondation pour la Culture Horlogère Suisse. Then they didn’t do that.

Had they canceled this but still donated a sum that they felt the watch would have raised, I could almost appreciate. But instead they used a charity’s name for their own marketing and personal benefit and that’s not honorable: even by business standards. That’s what I don’t respect about Moser. That’s what makes me call the management arrogant.

"There's no such thing as bad publicity" - P.T. Barnum

But that’s me and IMHO, YMMV, and so on….

[_speedmaster_]

If you don't understand satire, that's your business. But, your lengthy rants about this company sound oddly personal.

Moser copied iconic designs to fashion a one-off watch for charity. I fail to see how that correlates to a brand stealing another's design for a standard issue production for profit. It was an attempt at tongue-in-cheek humor. I found it comical. Clearly, you did not (to an oddly personally offended extent). You are also mistaken that the watch was not made. I've read, and heard first hand from several sources, that it was indeed made. It was ordered to be destroyed. Yes, I do believe certain "Holy Trinity" companies, with no sense of humor, got their legal teams together to ensure that watch never saw the light of day.

Just because something is desirable, does not mean it's innovative. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the masses will always flock towards the norm. Change is hard, and shunned by many. If you don't believe me about how the industry is stagnant, watch a YouTube interview with Max Busser (watches.tv YouTube channel), in which he says the same thing. I'm paraphrasing, but he also states "customers have more passion for watches than the people making them... and that's a problem".

Moser pioneered (pun intended) a revolutionary new design for a perpetual calendar. They also pioneered a way to set the time on a watch with no hands (the time is told through the chimes of the minute repeater). Although they are the second to use vantablack, the have certainly taken its use to the next level. So, before you start spouting off about how they haven't done anything, do some research.

You seem very hung up on companies copying other designs. So, you are okay with the RO and Nautilus sharing many similar design cues? Or is that okay because Patek hired Genta to use his design philosophy and mimick his RO design. Blancpain were the first to create a uni-directional dive bezel. Should you then decry Rolex for stealing that a couple months later?

Lastly, I don't agree that a company needs to earn the right to make fun of "companies that built this industry". Some of those companies have grown fat off reputation and have done literally nothing of substance for decades. They deserve to be called out. But, by all means, keep buying the 50th iteration of a genta designed watch. Be sure to call in early and get your name on that list.

[Jocke]

We have all opinions, good and bad which we are entitled to. I myself currently have 2 Moser watches and have also visited
the company in Schaffhausen and to claim that they are arrogant one can probably only do if you did not meet them.
Of the Swiss watch companies, Moser is probably one of the most customer friendly who invites you to a guided tour in
their factory. To consider then we were only 2 people on the tour which was enough for them to give us a full day there
to see all the machines in action. So I only have good experiences to convey.

[endo]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Let's examine that for a minute:

I said *made*. As far as I can tell, they never actually spent the money making the watch, there are just the few press photos of a rendering of the watch.

Something like that could be whipped up in an afternoon. Building a whole new caliber takes substantial funds and time. Did they build a new caliber JUST for this, only to just toss it out?

Clearly you have a bone to pick with Moser, we're all entitled to opinions, but some facts you are missing, unaware of or have omitted.

1. The Swiss Icons was a very real watch, prior to all related media being pulled, there were live stream videos of the watch being unboxed on Instagram.
And on many websites there are still actual photos not renders of the watch.

2. Its used the same HMC 804 selfwinding tourbillon as the Endeavour concept tourbillon, and Pioneer Tourbillon.
The bracelet was a precursor to the bracelet that ended up being used on this years Pioneer shown at SIHH
Leaving the case/dial as unique,.. hardly millions in R&D. If it cost that much you'd never see one off customer dials that exist.

3, They promised to donate the auction proceeds from the watches sale.
The watch watch was pulled by significant legal pressure, no watch = no auction, no auction = proceeds to no donate.
They've donated multiple watches to charity auctions in the past that folk are generally unaware of, so they'd have nothing to gain by "using a charties name" as you say.

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by AlyRba

I am also dealing with Shreve, Crump and Low at their Boston Location. Brian has been really good to deal with.

Any chance you can PM me Brian's contact info? Or perhaps make an email intro for me?

I always favor warm introductions. :)

Much appreciated!

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

If you don't understand satire, that's your business. But, your lengthy rants about this company sound oddly personal.

Moser copied iconic designs to fashion a one-off watch for charity. I fail to see how that correlates to a brand stealing another's design for a standard issue production for profit. It was an attempt at tongue-in-cheek humor. I found it comical. Clearly, you did not (to an oddly personally offended extent). You are also mistaken that the watch was not made. I've read, and heard first hand from several sources, that it was indeed made. It was ordered to be destroyed. Yes, I do believe certain "Holy Trinity" companies, with no sense of humor, got their legal teams together to ensure that watch never saw the light of day.

Just because something is desirable, does not mean it's innovative. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the masses will always flock towards the norm. Change is hard, and shunned by many. If you don't believe me about how the industry is stagnant, watch a YouTube interview with Max Busser (watches.tv YouTube channel), in which he says the same thing. I'm paraphrasing, but he also states "customers have more passion for watches than the people making them... and that's a problem".

Moser pioneered (pun intended) a revolutionary new design for a perpetual calendar. They also pioneered a way to set the time on a watch with no hands (the time is told through the chimes of the minute repeater). Although they are the second to use vantablack, the have certainly taken its use to the next level. So, before you start spouting off about how they haven't done anything, do some research.

You seem very hung up on companies copying other designs. So, you are okay with the RO and Nautilus sharing many similar design cues? Or is that okay because Patek hired Genta to use his design philosophy and mimick his RO design. Blancpain were the first to create a uni-directional dive bezel. Should you then decry Rolex for stealing that a couple months later?

Lastly, I don't agree that a company needs to earn the right to make fun of "companies that built this industry". Some of those companies have grown fat off reputation and have done literally nothing of substance for decades. They deserve to be called out. But, by all means, keep buying the 50th iteration of a genta designed watch. Be sure to call in early and get your name on that list.

Truthfully, it’s not personal: Moser is no different than any other watch brand in my eyes. I’ve seen a few of their watches in person and have read the same articles you likely have; that’s it. I just don’t care for them and opinions were asked for, so I gave mine. Specifically as a counter point to all the others that like the brand. If someone is asking for opinions, it is relevant that they have some from both sides.

As for you comment about not finding it funny (plagiarizing designs)… No, I didn’t. I don’t find a fake Rolex funny either, but I guess maybe some people do..?

You say that you’ve, “read, and heard first hand from several sources” that the Swiss Icon exists: can you site anything credible? I’m genuinely curious as I never been able to find anything of that nature.

I never said (or didn’t say) that the watch industry wasn’t stagnating. I am well aware of what Busser said, which is why I specifically mentioned MB&F in last post as an innovator. My point, which seems to have been missed, was that if one feels it is there is a better way to approach a foreseen problem than to simply try and poke fun at the ones who did revolutionize the industry. Moser is the bully of the watch world. I don’t support bullying.

Let’s examine the ‘innovations’ that Moser has brought to the table. The major ones according to you:

-A revolutionary new design for a perpetual calendar.

Okay… Any new PC movement is ‘revolutionary’ then… It’s unique to them but then which in-house Perpetual Calendar isn’t unique to that manufacture? Which one isn’t revolutionary? What’s your standard for ‘revolutionary’? Or does it just mean something new? Are all the new DateJust dials, “revolutionary”? How can the industry be stagnating then as every year we get a slew of new products.

-A way to set the time on a watch with no hands.

I think the issue may be your lack of understanding of the world “revolutionary”… In our case the definition that is most applicable is, “a sudden, radical, or complete change.” Removing the hands on a watch didn’t cause a sudden change in anything… The Royal Oak (which you pick on) actually did do that. The first dust proof, water proof watch did that. The first wrist watch did that. They all caused a fundamental shift in the watch world forever. All of which were made by those ‘stuffy’ companies.

-They are the second to use vantablack.

Really? Companies are making silicone hairsprings, non-magnetic over-coils, lubricants that don’t coagulate and escarpments that don’t need lubricants and your counter point is, “they were almost the first to use a material they didn’t invent.”

As an aside, I personally don’t care for the Nautilus and I do very much prefer to the Royal Oak. Having said that, the Nautilus has stood the test of time and earned its own place as an icon in its own right over time. Just the same as a Submariner or Speedmaster or Apple Watch. You can’t honestly be holding Mosers knock-off Apple watch in the same esteem as a Nautilus: do you?

I actually do feel a company needs to earn the right “make fun of” other companies – I take that back… I don’t think a company SHOULD ever make fun of any other company. Full stop. It’s low class and silly. I guess a sneaker company who’s demographic is tweens can swing it, but not a luxury brand.

But if a company does feel the need to do so, fine. That’s their brand image for better or worse. But show us how it’s done then. You can only talk the talk if you can walk the walk. I go back to my point in my previous post about actually innovative companies today and what they are doing. What I see Moser doing is sitting on the side lines saying how dull everyone else is meanwhile doing nothing on their own aside copying, again, the most iconic watch of the last decade, possibly of all time. That’s really, really lame.

It is a bit akin to me sitting and watching Gordon Ramsay cook and yelling out how stupid his is for searing a steak that way or chopping this way. I can do it, but as I don’t have more Micheline stars, restaurants, cook books or cooking shows as I him, I’m the one who looks the fool: not Ramsay.

But Moser can, and apparently will, say what they will. And if you like them because of it, that’s fine. Just the same as it is that I don’t.

Originally Posted by endo

Clearly you have a bone to pick with Moser, we're all entitled to opinions, but some facts you are missing, unaware of or have omitted.

1. The Swiss Icons was a very real watch, prior to all related media being pulled, there were live stream videos of the watch being unboxed on Instagram.
And on many websites there are still actual photos not renders of the watch.

2. Its used the same HMC 804 selfwinding tourbillon as the Endeavour concept tourbillon, and Pioneer Tourbillon.
The bracelet was a precursor to the bracelet that ended up being used on this years Pioneer shown at SIHH
Leaving the case/dial as unique,.. hardly millions in R&D. If it cost that much you'd never see one off customer dials that exist.

3, They promised to donate the auction proceeds from the watches sale.
The watch watch was pulled by significant legal pressure, no watch = no auction, no auction = proceeds to no donate.
They've donated multiple watches to charity auctions in the past that folk are generally unaware of, so they'd have nothing to gain by "using a charties name" as you say.

1. I would actually really appreciate a link. I’ve done some Googling and, for the life of me, I come up empty handed. I would be genuinely curious to see it.

2. This is very interesting! Thank you. Looking at it, yes, it appears to be the same just with a faux golden bridge attached to the dial, versus the tourbillion.

3. So it was pulled because of, “significant legal pressure” despite Mr. Meylan saying otherwise?

I also understand, “no watch = no auction, no auction = proceeds to donate,” however, it is still the charity (and ultimately the beneficiaries) that were the ones who lost out in this instance simply because the people at Moser did not do their due diligence. In my eyes, the honorable thing to do was still make a donation. After all, Moser has apparently donated multiple watches in the past, and they had already committed to doing so.


Again, all of this is IMHO, YMMV, spare your feelings, etc, etc, etc.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Truthfully, it’s not personal: Moser is no different than any other watch brand in my eyes. I’ve seen a few of their watches in person and have read the same articles you likely have; that’s it. I just don’t care for them and opinions were asked for, so I gave mine. Specifically as a counter point to all the others that like the brand. If someone is asking for opinions, it is relevant that they have some from both sides.

As for you comment about not finding it funny (plagiarizing designs)… No, I didn’t. I don’t find a fake Rolex funny either, but I guess maybe some people do..?

You say that you’ve, “read, and heard first hand from several sources” that the Swiss Icon exists: can you site anything credible? I’m genuinely curious as I never been able to find anything of that nature.

I never said (or didn’t say) that the watch industry wasn’t stagnating. I am well aware of what Busser said, which is why I specifically mentioned MB&F in last post as an innovator. My point, which seems to have been missed, was that if one feels it is there is a better way to approach a foreseen problem than to simply try and poke fun at the ones who did revolutionize the industry. Moser is the bully of the watch world. I don’t support bullying.

Let’s examine the ‘innovations’ that Moser has brought to the table. The major ones according to you:

-A revolutionary new design for a perpetual calendar.

Okay… Any new PC movement is ‘revolutionary’ then… It’s unique to them but then which in-house Perpetual Calendar isn’t unique to that manufacture? Which one isn’t revolutionary? What’s your standard for ‘revolutionary’? Or does it just mean something new? Are all the new DateJust dials, “revolutionary”? How can the industry be stagnating then as every year we get a slew of new products.

-A way to set the time on a watch with no hands.

I think the issue may be your lack of understanding of the world “revolutionary”… In our case the definition that is most applicable is, “a sudden, radical, or complete change.” Removing the hands on a watch didn’t cause a sudden change in anything… The Royal Oak (which you pick on) actually did do that. The first dust proof, water proof watch did that. The first wrist watch did that. They all caused a fundamental shift in the watch world forever. All of which were made by those ‘stuffy’ companies.

-They are the second to use vantablack.

Really? Companies are making silicone hairsprings, non-magnetic over-coils, lubricants that don’t coagulate and escarpments that don’t need lubricants and your counter point is, “they were almost the first to use a material they didn’t invent.”

As an aside, I personally don’t care for the Nautilus and I do very much prefer to the Royal Oak. Having said that, the Nautilus has stood the test of time and earned its own place as an icon in its own right over time. Just the same as a Submariner or Speedmaster or Apple Watch. You can’t honestly be holding Mosers knock-off Apple watch in the same esteem as a Nautilus: do you?

I actually do feel a company needs to earn the right “make fun of” other companies – I take that back… I don’t think a company SHOULD ever make fun of any other company. Full stop. It’s low class and silly. I guess a sneaker company who’s demographic is tweens can swing it, but not a luxury brand.

But if a company does feel the need to do so, fine. That’s their brand image for better or worse. But show us how it’s done then. You can only talk the talk if you can walk the walk. I go back to my point in my previous post about actually innovative companies today and what they are doing. What I see Moser doing is sitting on the side lines saying how dull everyone else is meanwhile doing nothing on their own aside copying, again, the most iconic watch of the last decade, possibly of all time. That’s really, really lame.

It is a bit akin to me sitting and watching Gordon Ramsay cook and yelling out how stupid his is for searing a steak that way or chopping this way. I can do it, but as I don’t have more Micheline stars, restaurants, cook books or cooking shows as I him, I’m the one who looks the fool: not Ramsay.

But Moser can, and apparently will, say what they will. And if you like them because of it, that’s fine. Just the same as it is that I don’t.

Unfortunately, I cannot name my sources (cliche, I know). But, others on here are telling you the same. If you choose not to believe it was made, then that’s fine.

You really don’t like giving them credit for anything, eh? Their PC design was new to the industry, not just them. I’d say introducing a new PC concept counts as revolutionary, as, according to you, it represents a “sudden change” to an age-old complication. I’d also say inventing a functioning minute repeater without hands is revolutionary. I believe any normal WIS that isn’t blinded by bias would agree.

You seem to have a very wide view of what constitutes “bullying”. If you call trying to inject some light-hearted humor into this industry “bullying”, then have at it. Keep up the repetitive diatribe about the year-old marketing campaign you didn’t find funny.

With regards to Moser’s “bullying” tactics, I wholeheartedly disagree with your overall sentiment. Someone should very much call out the mediocre, mass produced dribble that has taken hold of this industry. Someone should *most certainly* call out a bogus “Swiss made” label, when the parts for a $20k Swiss “in-house” movement are outsourced to China. If that is done by a magazine, reporter or Moser...so be it. Again, you don’t need to earn a seat at the establishment table to do so. More often than not, the established companies can’t see the forest through the trees, it has to come from the upstarts. I generally think Moser did a public service calling out faux Swiss “in-house” calibers. Again, if that makes some of these companies (or customers who buy them) blush with anger or embarrassment...good.

I also disagree that their marketing campaign have hurt their image. This forum, and the influx of recent Moser incomings, is proof that they are on the upswing.

Unless you are a chef, you yelling at Ramsey for his cooking is in no way a proper analogy. A proper analogy would be the young, 1 Michelin star chef, yelling at the TV for Ramsey overlooking his steak.

Lastly, and I can’t stress this enough as it seems you continuously gloss over this fact, them creating a *one off* watch for charity does not equate to them “doing nothing on their own aside copying”. Quit the hyperbole and obvios bias.

[endo]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

Quit the hyperbole and obvios bias.

I dunno i’m curious about his thoughts on the Panerai’s Brooklyn bridge, (Richmont in general actually) Bremont & Tag’s “in house” debacles, which watch was first on Everest, various companies who restrict supply to ADs in favour of boutiques... etc

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by endo

I dunno i’m curious about his thoughts on the Panerai’s Brooklyn bridge, (Richmont in general actually) Bremont & Tag’s “in house” debacles, which watch was first on Everest, various companies who restrict supply to ADs in favour of boutiques... etc

You think he'll call out AP for "copying" Hublot, using a rubber strap on their ROs? Or maybe that Moser supplies hairsprings to MB&F? Something tells me no. Hahaha.

[Jocke]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

You think he'll call out AP for "copying" Hublot, using a rubber strap on their ROs? Or maybe that Moser supplies hairsprings to MB&F? Something tells me no. Hahaha.

Moser don't made hairsprings, it's a Moser owned company named Precision Engineering AG and they supplies
hairsprings to other brands.

[endo]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

You think he'll call out AP for "copying" Hublot, using a rubber strap on their ROs? Or maybe that Moser supplies hairsprings to MB&F? Something tells me no. Hahaha.

Precision Engineerinf supply alot of folk, Kari Voutilainen, Laurent Ferrier etc.... reminds me there’s a Laurent Ferrier I need to chase tonight lol

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by endo

Precision Engineerinf supply alot of folk, Kari Voutilainen, Laurent Ferrier etc.... reminds me there’s a Laurent Ferrier I need to chase tonight lol

Oh nice, which model? I'm a big fan, hope to get a regulator at some point.

[endo]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

Oh nice, which model? I'm a big fan, hope to get a regulator at some point.

I was thinking of a Galet Square, i feel it could be quite a nice addition and its nice and stealth.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by endo

I was thinking of a Galet Square, i feel it could be quite a nice addition and its nice and stealth.

Nice, definitely a stealth watch that only a WIS would notice (which I find to be a big plus). The cushion case is definitely a great look, and you pretty much can't go wrong with any dial color.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by Jocke

Moser don't made hairsprings, it's a Moser owned company named Precision Engineering AG and they supplies
hairsprings to other brands.

Yes, I was trying to simplify. But I consider Precision Engineering, as they are owned by Moser, to essentially be Moser.

[Starwalker]

Originally Posted by endo

I was thinking of a Galet Square, i feel it could be quite a nice addition and its nice and stealth.

i love this watch. One day, I will have one too! it might be far away right now, but it will definitely happen.

[endo]

With that all out of the way, lets get on with some pics :)


https://www.instagram.com/p/Bv_Lu1CHLIX/


https://www.instagram.com/p/BqCz0eeHNwE/


https://www.instagram.com/p/BvKocQznkOt/


https://www.instagram.com/p/Btwg1VlHREI/

[_speedmaster_]

Yes, let's get this thread back on track.

Amazing pictures amigo. The purple haze dial is so underrated, I wish they had the white gold version when I was looking around (I only managed to see the red gold version in person).

BTW, just genuinely curious, how come two PCs?

[endo]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

Yes, let's get this thread back on track.

Amazing pictures amigo. The purple haze dial is so underrated, I wish they had the white gold version when I was looking around (I only managed to see the red gold version in person).

BTW, just genuinely curious, how come two PCs?

Thanks, The purple is something special, an acquired taste for some, but I love the way it looks on the few days we get sun.

Two PCs, There's no logical explanation, dual time maybe?

Of the two, the Rose gold I bought first, It's super nice and depending on strap works well both in casual dress or when I'm suited and booted. However as much as I love Rose gold (I have a couple of other RG watches), in some situations I find gold a bit showy/gaudy.
The Black Edition, solves this and to me is ideal alternative as a low key daily/travel watch, plus i really like the black out case & movement.

Ultimately, the reason for two is because the PC is super comfy due to its curved case back, massive power reserve so I can leave it for a few days and wear something else, and most importantly idiot proof date adjustment (on the rare occasion they have wound down)

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by endo

Thanks, The purple is something special, an acquired taste for some, but I love the way it looks on the few days we get sun.

Two PCs, There's no logical explanation, dual time maybe?

Of the two, the Rose gold I bought first, It's super nice and depending on strap works well both in casual dress or when I'm suited and booted. However as much as I love Rose gold (I have a couple of other RG watches), in some situations I find gold a bit showy/gaudy.
The Black Edition, solves this and to me is ideal alternative as a low key daily/travel watch, plus i really like the black out case & movement.

Ultimately, the reason for two is because the PC is super comfy due to its curved case back, massive power reserve so I can leave it for a few days and wear something else, and most importantly idiot proof date adjustment (on the rare occasion they have wound down)

Haha. One on each wrist would make a killer combo. The different case materials do indeed make them look like watches for very different occasions.

I must say, when I tried on their PC, I do remember it being insanely comfortable. The curved sapphire on the casback is brilliantly executed. Now you have me on Chrono24...

[JohnTz]

Guys any thoughts on the Hautlence watches. I think they are somehow owned or connected with Moser. Moser and Hautlence are steals in the secondary market and I thought I would just get one for the heck of it, especially at the second hand prices.

[Showcase]

Any thoughts on the H. Moser & Cie. Heritage Bucherer Blue Editions?