Is “Archive” paper as good as original warranty? And should that affect price?

[DoctorA]

Looking to buy my first Patek. I came across a watch with archives papers only, missing original warranty papers

I know In the rolex world, absent original papers will affect price even if the watch comes with service warranty,

how does that work for Patek?

If it affects price, by what percent?

Thank you!

[northland0]

Will give you peace of mind, but is something you could request from Patek once you get the watch for ~$600 (will take a few months).

I would basically just subtract that from the value of the price and treat it as if it doesn’t have papers when comparing pricing.


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[Russell996]

Archive papers can now only be requested for pieces produced up to 1989.

https://www.patek.com/en/retail-serv...m-the-archives

[CastorKrieg]

Extract from Archives is NOT as good a Certificate of Origin. The latter is given to you the moment you buy the watch and it lists the date and the name of the owner. The Extract only confirms that a watch with a certain movement number and case number is a certain reference, giving details about the colour of the dial, the complications, etc.

Personally I would not buy a modern reference that is missing a CoO, there is no reason a seller shouldn’t have one esp. it is common knowledge that full sets command better price.

[enjoythemusic]

Patek buyers are hardcore, so original papers, leather holder, box, etc... or you should get 25% off. If you want, call other dealers and tell them you "have for sale"... with just the Archives and see what they offer you.

[Moondoggy]

Any watch without papers for me I would want 50+% off. It is a deal breaker for me.

[bonsai-man]

Agree with all above 25%+ discount on references with no Papers. Extract of Archive is only a “nice to have” but not the same thing.

You don’t wear the box or papers, but I would not buy a modern Patek without both as it will be so much harder to move on if I ever needed too.

What watch are you looking at?

[Partekular]

Originally Posted by Moondoggy

Any watch without papers for me I would want 50+% off. It is a deal breaker for me.

Agree. An original purchaser would be unlikely to throw away the box or papers when selling the watch and a second hand purchaser from the original owner would almost certainly ask for them.

Without original papers one will always suspect the legitimacy of the watch’s origin. That said, a person inheriting a watch might not be aware of the certificate’s importance or value and throw it away with the piles of papers one’s benefactor inevitably leaves behind. Old watches are therefore somewhat different to newer ones as far as papers go.

[jfriedkin]

As a vintage buyer original certs are pretty hard to come by. Extract from the archive are imho just as good. I also have a few modern PP with box and papers. The box and paper work have been stored in my closet and I have not looked at them since I purchased the watch. True full set is worth more. But then if you are on the BUY side of the deal the watch with just an Extract should be worth less. You will not look at your box or cert.

[Partekular]

Originally Posted by jfriedkin

As a vintage buyer original certs are pretty hard to come by. Extract from the archive are imho just as good. I also have a few modern PP with box and papers. The box and paper work have been stored in my closet and I have not looked at them since I purchased the watch. True full set is worth more. But then if you are on the BUY side of the deal the watch with just an Extract should be worth less. You will not look at your box or cert.

It’s not the ‘looking’ at the papers and box which matters. It’s the assurance the original papers provide that the watch wasn’t lost or stolen. The extract from the archives just proves it’s a Patek and gives no reassurance as to its legitimate origin or source.

I would never buy an expensive watch and risk that it was illegally sourced.

[jon_jon]

It depends on the age of the watch and type of watch. If you are purchasing an older Calatrava or a Gondolos from the 80s or 90s, it may be difficult to find one with original papers and many will be sold with an Extract. If you are looking to purchase a more complicated piece that was sold within the past 10 years, then Certificate is a must for hard core collectors.

Just as with Rolex, if you just want to pay the least amount without concerns about provenance or future resale, just buy from a reputable seller who can stand behind the product and assure you it is a genuine Patek and not a frankenwatch.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Moondoggy

Any watch without papers for me I would want 50+% off. It is a deal breaker for me.

lol

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by jfriedkin

As a vintage buyer original certs are pretty hard to come by. Extract from the archive are imho just as good. I also have a few modern PP with box and papers. The box and paper work have been stored in my closet and I have not looked at them since I purchased the watch. True full set is worth more. But then if you are on the BUY side of the deal the watch with just an Extract should be worth less. You will not look at your box or cert.

I think I understand, you’re saying with vintage and modern the b&p will increase the price, but it’s not worth looking at. But if you’re buying vintage with no b&p it’s cheaper because the extract doesn’t increase the price but the extract is better to look at than the b&p, right.

[2nastie]

Original papers are always the best. Patek papers are not just warranty certificates when new but also the identifications for the watch.

Archival papers are information retrieval from Patek's vault of information. You technically don't even need to own the watch to receive the information as long as you have the serial number. It's basically a piece of paper with facts. Helpful resource but not as good the original papers. Service papers directly from Patek are probably better as they would've inspected every part for its authenticity.

[DoctorA]

Thank you all for the input and help! This is really helpful! The hunt will continue on then :)

[SBC1986]

Originally Posted by Moondoggy

Any watch without papers for me I would want 50+% off. It is a deal breaker for me.

lol. good luck with that.

[Bearxj86]

You wear the watch and not the papers. Archives are a step above naked.

Would say around a 10-15% discount is what I personally would expect, no more.

Focus on condition, condition, condition.

[Moondoggy]

Originally Posted by SBC1986

lol. good luck with that.

may not happen, but like I said that is me. They are the DNA in my opinion.

[CastorKrieg]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

You wear the watch and not the papers. Archives are a step above naked.

Would say around a 10-15% discount is what I personally would expect, no more.

Focus on condition, condition, condition.

You wear the watch, but if it was stolen and Patek was informed the moment you try to sell it at an auction or send to Patek for service it will get seized and returned to the original owner.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by CastorKrieg

You wear the watch, but if it was stolen and Patek was informed the moment you try to sell it at an auction or send to Patek for service it will get seized and returned to the original owner.

It won't necessarily get returned to the original owner depending on the region and the local laws that apply.

[jfriedkin]

Originally Posted by Partekular

It’s not the ‘looking’ at the papers and box which matters. It’s the assurance the original papers provide that the watch wasn’t lost or stolen. The extract from the archives just proves it’s a Patek and gives no reassurance as to its legitimate origin or source.

I would never buy an expensive watch and risk that it was illegally sourced.

Original paper do NOT mean the watch is not stolen. The ONLY assurance original papers provide is that the watch is legit (just like an Extract). Unless you buy the watch BNIB you would have no way of knowing if it was illegally sourced.

[jfriedkin]

Originally Posted by bonsai-man

I think I understand, you’re saying with vintage and modern the b&p will increase the price, but it’s not worth looking at. But if you’re buying vintage with no b&p it’s cheaper because the extract doesn’t increase the price but the extract is better to look at than the b&p, right.

What I am saying is, that box and papers increase the confidence of the buying transaction. Box and papers on a modern watch maybe worth 5-10%. However, I would not hesitate to purchase a modern PP if it came with an extract.

[Partekular]

Originally Posted by jfriedkin

Original paper do NOT mean the watch is not stolen. The ONLY assurance original papers provide is that the watch is legit (just like an Extract). Unless you buy the watch BNIB you would have no way of knowing if it was illegally sourced.

Well, of course that may be right but most people will keep their papers in a file, probably in a filing cabinet, possibly even a fire proved one bad their watch in their house not even in the fancy box. So the chanced of theft with box and papers is dim is highly small to non-existent.

[bonsai-man]

It's not a watch thing. Some see a Patek as a collectable, want it now and will pay extra for a mint complete set, others just see a watch.

[Ellz]

Every collector I know would rather have the COA over the extract- I do too :-)