The Official Formula One Thread!

[INC]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

RB out-spent other teams, ignoring the cost cap, and arguably winning the championship for Verstappen simply by exercising their chequebook.

I believe that a 0.37 percent breach cannot be the reason for any success.

Anyway, I think Ferrari is definitely not the team that has the right to criticize another team on this topic. The real cheating team, whose agreement is still a top secret to this day, I think it's better to keep very quiet.

[77T]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

RB out-spent other teams, ignoring the cost cap, and arguably winning the championship for Verstappen simply by exercising their chequebook.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...laurent-mekies

Yes RB was discovered to have over-spent. They were not accounting for costs correctly on their spending. Nor did they account for a tax credit that off-set costs. They need a better CFO since other teams were able to account better. But accountants don’t win races

From the article for context:
“Red Bull reached an 'accepted breach agreement' (ABA) with the FIA on Wednesday, in which the team had to admit their wrongdoing, having come in $2.2m over the cap after the FIA found 13 cases of costs being incorrectly excluded or adjusted.

The FIA acknowledged if a tax credit had been correctly applied Red Bull would have only been $0.5m over, resulting in a breach of 0.37 per cent.”

Ferrari was also quoted with a bizarre argument:
“Mekies and Ferrari's disappointment with the ABA stems from the fact they believe Red Bull will be able to use the money saved on reduced wind tunnel time to develop other elements of their 2023 car, offsetting the potential impact of the penalty.”

Now that is a hoot for me…the penalty helps the guilty…

My thought is that Ferrari & MB could have spent twice the RB over-spend but their cars would’ve still been an underdog. Money doesn’t trump bad design.

One thing I’m thankful for - Stewards do not have to adjudicate the cost cap.


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[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by INC

I believe that a 0.37 percent breach cannot be the reason for any success.

Anyway, I think Ferrari is definitely not the team that has the right to criticize another team on this topic. The real cheating team, whose agreement is still a top secret to this day, I think it's better to keep very quiet.

...says an out-and-out RB fanboi!

[77T]

Originally Posted by INC

I believe that a 0.37 percent breach cannot be the reason for any success.

Anyway, I think Ferrari is definitely not the team that has the right to criticize another team on this topic. The real cheating team, whose agreement is still a top secret to this day, I think it's better to keep very quiet.

We were typing at same time - we’ll never know where RB gained an advantage on the spend issue. But Adrian Newey did the job that none figured out on other teams. Bravo AN
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Newey

It is true other teams have paid huge fines for non-compliance. We learn from their ingenuity - like the 4k fuel system hack - it is impressive in its elegance. But true it was non-compliant.

Now the new oscillation tech directive will be a target for creative engineers.

I never call it cheating because I think of it being an “unfair advantage” in honor of Mark Donohue and Dan Gurney.


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[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by 77T

I never call it cheating because I think of it being an “unfair advantage” in honor of Mark Donohue and Dan Gurney.

That's a nice way of putting it. In a sport where single-lap margins are measured in hundredths of a second, a 0.37% advantage might be significant.

[77T]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

That's a nice way of putting it. In a sport where single-lap margins are measured in hundredths of a second, a 0.37% advantage might be significant.

Spending doesn’t equal performance. If it did, considering the cap, all teams would be within a hundredth if they spent the max. It’s the ingenuity that matters and Ferrari’s spending was right to the limit. All that money meant little when they made some of the strat calls they did.

But I agree RB should have been fined differently if that is your point.


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[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by 77T

Spending doesn’t equal performance. If it did, considering the cap, all teams would be within a hundredth if they spent the max. It’s the ingenuity that matters and Ferrari’s spending was right to the limit. All that money meant little when they made some of the strat calls they did.

But I agree RB should have been fined differently if that is your point.


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My point is that both of Verstappen's World Championship titles are now tainted.

[INC]

As I've said many times, I'm not a fan of either RB or MV. I simply don't like when they are accused of being incapable.

In the same time of course, this doesn't mean at all that there was no basis for these accusations, but I think the amount of fuss some makes about these is already an exaggeration.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

My point is that both of Verstappen's World Championship titles are now tainted.

All of your posts in this thread are negativity towards Max, don't you have anything better to do?

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by SearChart

All of your posts in this thread are negativity towards Max, don't you have anything better to do?

Did you somehow miss the outcry about Verstappen's treatment of his teammate last weekend? And the controversy about the last race last season?

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

Did you somehow miss the outcry about Verstappen's treatment of his teammate last weekend? And the controversy about the last race last season?

No, I'm aware of it. But as a grown man I prefer not to whine and talk trash about people online.

I don't know how to drive an F1 car so my opinion is probably not relevant here.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

Did you somehow miss the outcry about Verstappen's treatment of his teammate last weekend? And the controversy about the last race last season?

How did you miss the news of Perez deliberately crashing in Monaco and bringing out the red flag so his teammate could not take pole position? You know, the race where Perez went onto win the Monaco GP...

If a coworker screwed you out of something, would you not want your pound of flesh?

This whole hand wringing about Max not giving the position to Checo is a bit overdone given the deliberate underhanded tactic Perez did in Monaco. Of course Red Bull kept it internalized with the fans and media being none the wiser, but once that radio message was broadcast, the truth came out. Even Carlos Sainz knew Perez deliberately crashed and said it happens more often than people realize.

It's no coincidence that Daniel Ricciardo has been brought in as a 3rd drivers as an insurance policy against Perez going rogue again in 2023.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by SearChart

No, I'm aware of it. But as a grown man I prefer not to whine and talk trash about people online.

I don't know how to drive an F1 car so my opinion is probably not relevant here.

I'm a grown man also, and I'm neither whining nor trash talking. This is a forum, so opinions you don't agree with may crop up. There does seem to be a bit of a consensus about Verstappen's character, do you have a view on that?

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

How did you miss the news of Perez deliberately crashing in Monaco and bringing out the red flag so his teammate could not take pole position? You know, the race where Perez went onto win the Monaco GP...

I think that's opinion rather than established fact, but even if it's true, there are multiple other instances where Perez helped Verstappen out.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

I'm a grown man also, and I'm neither whining nor trash talking. This is a forum, so opinions you don't agree with may crop up. There does seem to be a bit of a consensus about Verstappen's character, do you have a view on that?

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just don't agree with your behaviour.

There's many (positive) things to talk about F1, yet all you do is talk negative about anything RBR related.

[INC]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

I think that's opinion rather than established fact, but even if it's true, there are multiple other instances where Perez helped Verstappen out.

While I still think, that Checco didn't want to ruin VER's race, but that video says all.

IMHO, let me be straight. When you talk about even Perez "helped" VER, it will not change the fact, thet he did nothing more then to do his job. Exactly that, what for he was hired. And as you can remember, Checco's contract was not signed as long as he didn't shown these kind of "favours" for RB&Max. His seat was 100% assured only after his magnificent race in Abu Dhabi last year. Checco is a very good pilot, it's not a question. However he is not nearly as talented as HAM, MAX, Leclerc or even Russel. And probably not as good as Alonso or Vettel. The only reason is why he was the third this year, that he drove a Red Bull. So he is the only one, who must say a huge thank you for RB for giving him this possibility, and not in contrary.

Let me be straight again. RBR doesn't want an Alonso, or Vettel, or a Leclerc as a teammate for Max as they don't want a rivalisation between the drivers. In the past you seen it several times when this kind of rivalisation caused accidents, and huge problems in the teams. No one wants this again.

Exactly that's the reason why RB hired a good driver to be a sidekick of Max, and not a talented driver. That's what for Perez was hired. This means, that under this circumstances, Perez has absolutely no right to ask for favours in this form. In contrary, I think he should better know, that he could be easily replaced by another driver. And in this case he will never ever be able to achive such results.

And that's the huge difference between him and Max.

[JoeJoeBobo]

^ Ok Max we got it your a better driver then Checo! ^ Now go enjoy your second World Championship.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

I think that's opinion rather than established fact, but even if it's true, there are multiple other instances where Perez helped Verstappen out.

I agree with you that Perez has helped VER multiple times, no question about it. It doesn't change the fact Perez also went rogue and thought he'd do something himself, for himself that was underhanded.

Also, it's not opinion any longer, it's established fact. Red Bull kept it a secret from the public and media until Max's radio message you're referring to. In the week between Brazil and Abu Dhabi it was looked at much closer and telemetry shows disparities proving that Perez deliberately crashed to keep Max from getting pole.. There's many more examples of the telemetry than the one posted below but unless you can interpret data, this one is clear for novices. Let's not forget that Perez went onto win that race as well. Before that race weekend, Max was only 6 pts ahead of LeClerc and 25 ahead of Checo so all very close to start the European F1 calendar campaign.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/524gFfe1_vo

In addition, Carlos Sainz pretty much alluded to Perez did what he did and went onto say that purposeful crashing happens much more than the public knows.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/delib...u-think-sainz/

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

I agree with you that Perez has helped VER multiple times, no question about it. It doesn't change the fact Perez also went rogue and thought he'd do something himself, for himself that was underhanded.

Also, it's not opinion any longer, it's established fact. Red Bull kept it a secret from the public and media until Max's radio message you're referring to. In the week between Brazil and Abu Dhabi it was looked at much closer and telemetry shows disparities proving that Perez deliberately crashed to keep Max from getting pole.. There's many more examples of the telemetry than the one posted below but unless you can interpret data, this one is clear for novices. Let's not forget that Perez went onto win that race as well. Before that race weekend, Max was only 6 pts ahead of LeClerc and 25 ahead of Checo so all very close to start the European F1 calendar campaign.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/524gFfe1_vo

In addition, Carlos Sainz pretty much alluded to Perez did what he did and went onto say that purposeful crashing happens much more than the public knows.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/delib...u-think-sainz/

Given that the drivers are aware that they are being monitored via telemetry, how stupid would they need to be in order to crash deliberately and think they might get away with it?

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by SearChart

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just don't agree with your behaviour.

There's many (positive) things to talk about F1, yet all you do is talk negative about anything RBR related.

Huh?

[INC]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

how stupid would they need to be in order to crash deliberately and think they might get away with it?

Not Checco was the first one who has a success to do it. As no-one complained, so no one inspected this case. To know the truth and to prove it are mostly two different things.

[JoeJoeBobo]

Ricciardo resigning with RBR is true example of failing upwards in F1!

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by INC

Not Checco was the first one who has a success to do it. As no-one complained, so no one inspected this case. To know the truth and to prove it are mostly two different things.

The point is that you don't know (and you can't ever know) whether or not the crash was deliberate. I think it's extremely unlikely that an F1 driver would deliberately crash with telemetry.

[daveathall]

It would make sense if Perez was the fastest and in pole position at that stage to control a crash and take pole, but he wasn't, he was 3rd and that is where he ended up on the grid. Knowing how difficult it is to overtake at Monaco, surely no driver would settle for 3rd.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

Given that the drivers are aware that they are being monitored via telemetry, how stupid would they need to be in order to crash deliberately and think they might get away with it?

You'd have to ask Perez how stupid he is but the evidence is overwhelming.

Originally Posted by daveathall

It would make sense if Perez was the fastest and in pole position at that stage to control a crash and take pole, but he wasn't, he was 3rd and that is where he ended up on the grid. Knowing how difficult it is to overtake at Monaco, surely no driver would settle for 3rd.

Except for the fact that the 2022 Ferraris can out qualify everyone else on the grid but go backwards in the race - both on pace with heavy fuel and strategy. IN this particular case, the starting grid was:

1. LEC
2. SAI
3. PER
4. VER

The race results were:

1. PER
2. SAI
3. VER
4. LEC

[INC]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

The point is that you don't know (and you can't ever know) whether or not the crash was deliberate. I think it's extremely unlikely that an F1 driver would deliberately crash with telemetry.

I think it would be useful to distinguish between whether this was a premeditated act or whether Perez just acted on the spur of the moment.

Let's think about this case from a different perspective! If this case had happened with MSC, then everyone would have treated the case as a "rookie" incident. Everybody would have been considered this as a typical amateur move. But Checco is not a newbie, on the contrary, he could take that turn with his eyes closed. That means, for whatever reason, he did what he did, but he made a move that was definitely not appropriate there.

To understand this, you don't need to be a professional driver, as even a completely amateur everyday car driver knows, that if he steps on the gas like that in a curve, then exactly that will happen. It is therefore not necessary to look for a reason or to fabricate a conspiracy theory why Checco did it. That is not the point, but that it was not a pilot error or the result of an unknown, unwanted and unforeseen event.

That was intentional. The rest and the reasons doesn't matter at all as we don't need to figure out his intentions. It's more then enough to see with our very own eyes what he did. But of course it's my humble opinion only.

[JoeJoeBobo]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

You'd have to ask Perez how stupid he is but the evidence is overwhelming.



Except for the fact that the 2022 Ferraris can out qualify everyone else on the grid but go backwards in the race - both on pace with heavy fuel and strategy. IN this particular case, the starting grid was:

1. LEC
2. SAI
3. PER
4. VER

The race results were:

1. PER
2. SAI
3. VER
4. LEC

The fact that Checo changed his public tune on Max and RBR quashed this before an investigation by the FIA was brought further solidifys the likelihood.

[INC]

Originally Posted by daveathall

It would make sense if Perez was the fastest and in pole position at that stage to control a crash and take pole, but he wasn't, he was 3rd and that is where he ended up on the grid. Knowing how difficult it is to overtake at Monaco, surely no driver would settle for 3rd.

This was the championship standings after Monaco:

Pos. Driver Team Points
1 Max Verstappen Red Bull 125
2 Charles Leclerc Ferrari 116
3 Sergio Perez Red Bull 110

so as you can see, Checco get closer to Max with 10pts. At that time they had almost the same points, and how this season started, it definitely not looked like Max will win the championship such easily.

Accordingly, in Monaco not that mattered for Perez what is his position on the grid. For him the only thing mattered was that he had to finish in front of Max. And he was only able to achieve it this way. Ferraris positions were absolutely not mattered for him, just this.

However, I don't like to say that's why he did what he did.

I just wanted to refute the point that he didn't won anything by doing so, as this opinion is based on the fallacy that Perez wanted to win the race. Actually, this is the mistake. For Perez, this was not the most important thing, but finishing ahead of Max. And that actually happened, because Perez knew that in Monaco MAX would not have a chance to overtake him if he was in front of him on the grid.

And exactly that what we have seen, that was what happened.

[INC]

Just one more note.

I don't think Checco is a cheater or a bad person, or even that his mentality is like doing that. I think that in the heat of the moment he did something really stupid, which he probably immediately regretted. To be honest, this is exactly what could confirm such an amateur move, since he didn't even thought about the possible consequences.

This idea could also confirm that what he did was delirebate, but not preliminated planned.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by INC

Let's think about this case from a different perspective! If this case had happened with MSC, then everyone would have treated the case as a "rookie" incident. Everybody would have been considered this as a typical amateur move. But Checco is not a newbie, on the contrary, he could take that turn with his eyes closed. That means, for whatever reason, he did what he did, but he made a move that was definitely not appropriate there.

Humans are capable of making mistakes, Perez is human, therefore he is capable of making a mistake. Show me an F1 driver who has never made a mistake, and crashed. Verstappen? LOL.

OTOH, Perez knew that his every move in the cockpit was being monitored, therefore a deliberate crash would be obvious to his team if he tried it on.

Nobody on TRF knows why that crash at Monaco happened. The "evidence" matches that of a mistake, and a deliberate crash. Take your pick. Verstappen fans say it was deliberate.