End of Crypto?

[77T]

Originally Posted by huncho

this is extremely misleading and how the media gets people. a "single" bitcoin transaction can include hundreds of payments. the electricity is spent validating a block which rewards bitcoins to the miner.

To be fair, I think Joey meant the amount of power to complete the “proof of work” sufficient to mine a Bitcoin rather than a single “transaction”.

The Kw hours is the generally accepted number though.

And is why ETH wanted a proof of stake to replace proof of work to significantly reduce data center power needed.


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[huncho]

Originally Posted by 77T

To be fair, I think Joey meant the amount of power to complete the “proof of work” sufficient to mine a Bitcoin rather than a single “transaction”.

The Kw hours is the generally accepted number though.

And is why ETH wanted a proof of stake to replace proof of work to significantly reduce data center power needed.


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well if he meant the amount it takes to mine then yeah it's a different story, but if he did mean one transaction then there's no such thing. regardless, i posted a link to some math about a worst case scenario in terms of energy usage. the carbon footprint is negligible and most big miners have moved to renewable energy. the majority of environmentally unfriendly mining was done in china and since china's banned it they've moved on to much more efficient ways due to being forced to operate in places with stricter regulations

[joeychitwood]

Originally Posted by joeychitwood

The amount of energy needed to “mine” crypto is astounding.

Originally Posted by huncho

well if he meant the amount it takes to mine then yeah it's a different story,

I think the first sentence in my post states what I meant.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by joeychitwood

I think the first sentence in my post states what I meant.

ok but then why ignore the rest of my post that disproves your statement? lol

also, those two sentences you made completely contradict each other. you can't say it takes a lot to mine bitcoin then say one transaction. if you're gonna use semantics against me then you should be more clear about what you post

[joeychitwood]

Originally Posted by huncho

ok but then why ignore the rest of my post that disproves your statement? lol

also, those two sentences you made completely contradict each other. you can't say it takes a lot to mine bitcoin then say one transaction. if you're gonna use semantics against me then you should be more clear about what you post

Gotcha. Forgive me.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by joeychitwood

Gotcha. Forgive me.

i sense sarcasm but just want to say i didn't mean to be rude in that response. i realize you meant energy use in mining but the "one transaction" threw me off. yes mining btc uses a lot of energy but it's not for one transaction, which sort of implies thats what it takes for one person to send someone money. in the end, that math puzzle is the reason it's so secure though

i get why people are skeptical and even i used to think 99% of crypto is a scam (even more-so now) but i just really don't think there's an argument for btc being detrimental to the environment

[Mifune]

Okay...here is the latest news.

An Industry insider and Co founder of a big exchange has confirmed that ftx was responsible for causing the terra luna collapse and then ftx caused the 3 arrows liquidation at the same time he began using users deposits to leverage trade and counter party trade. CZ/Bianca decided to put his foot down because SBF is basically raping the crypto ecosystem so he talked with Sam Bankman Fried to stop counter trading but SBF didn't listen, so this caused CZ to stop trading the FTT/FTX token and this brought FTX down.

They're gonna write a movie about this one.

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by 77T

To be fair...

And is why ETH wanted a proof of stake to replace proof of work to significantly reduce data center power needed.

That is not why Ethereum wanted to move to proof of stake... come on now. It's a side benefit if you can actually call moving away from 'clean energy' usage as a benefit. The entire world is on this 'E' Train as if electricity is the great savior of the future and at the same time they terrorize Bitcoin for using this same clean electricity.

We need to get this stuff straight.

[Moondoggy]

My take on crypto is it came to life in a period of time when conventional money making ventures were starting to really boom (early 2010's), ie. real estate, shares etc. and there where generations who where disenchanted as it was out of their reach. You know people in their 20's, 30's who just think that Gen Y and baby boomers stuffed everything, they own all the real estate etc prices are absurd so the only way many felt they could get anywhere financially was a "get rich quick scheme" and some obviously did in the early days.

I'm not saying this applies to all but I think it carries some weight.

[Mifune]

That carries no weight at all... bitcoin wasn't created as a get rich quick or some 'greater fool' scheme.

In as far as the later token issuance ecosystem, this is what happens when you have an unregulated industry with no oversight.

[Moondoggy]

Originally Posted by Mifune

That carries no weight at all... bitcoin wasn't created as a get rich quick or some 'greater fool' scheme.

In as far as the later token issuance ecosystem, this is what happens when you have an unregulated industry with no oversight.

It may not have been "created" to do so, but it sure as hell is viewed that way by many.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Mifune

That is not why Ethereum wanted to move to proof of stake... come on now. It's a side benefit if you can actually call moving away from 'clean energy' usage as a benefit. The entire world is on this 'E' Train as if electricity is the great savior of the future and at the same time they terrorize Bitcoin for using this same clean electricity.

We need to get this stuff straight.

I agree it’s not the “why” - I should have said it’s one side-benefit. Also agree it has little to do with BTC itself.

It’s not about “clean” energy vs other forms - it comes down to a cost/fee analysis. As you know, when we approach the final BTC mined, the only visible revenue stream will be processing fees.

The real benefit of the ETH fork won’t be seen for quite a while. I sense the various block derivatives on the ETH platform was reaching a point of peak transactions capacity.


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[HHIslander]

Originally Posted by Mifune

Okay...here is the latest news.

An Industry insider and Co founder of a big exchange has confirmed that ftx was responsible for causing the terra luna collapse and then ftx caused the 3 arrows liquidation at the same time he began using users deposits to leverage trade and counter party trade. CZ/Bianca decided to put his foot down because SBF is basically raping the crypto ecosystem so he talked with Sam Bankman Fried to stop counter trading but SBF didn't listen, so this caused CZ to stop trading the FTT/FTX token and this brought FTX down.

They're gonna write a movie about this one.

If that’s true, then anyone who would invest a single dollar in an industry that would allow this to happen shouldn’t be making investing decisions.

Anyone who still has money invested in crypto deserves everything that will happen to them when the bottom falls out completely, which it will. Crypto won’t disappear but it will be worth a fraction if that it’s worth right now.

My sympathy meter is pegged at zero for them all.

[knyshcollection]

I'm so glad I never got into that crypto mess

[77T]

Originally Posted by HHIslander

Crypto won’t disappear but it will be worth a fraction if that it’s worth right now.

I don’t know. In a fundamental way governments could play a role in a disappearance.

In one manner they ban forgery of their fiat currency to protect its value and people’s trust.

If they consider crypto a form of value forgery, in other words no substance, they could outlaw the blockchain transactions that underpin the crypto ledger networks.

Not advocating one way or the other - but China did ban mining and others could follow suit in a similar action for the networks.


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[dmash]

Michael Saylor is down over 40% on his investment, an ~1.7bil loss. El Salvador president is down more than 60%.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by HHIslander

If that’s true, then anyone who would invest a single dollar in an industry that would allow this to happen shouldn’t be making investing decisions.

Anyone who still has money invested in crypto deserves everything that will happen to them when the bottom falls out completely, which it will. Crypto won’t disappear but it will be worth a fraction if that it’s worth right now.

My sympathy meter is pegged at zero for them all.

yeah pretty much. it killed any confidence or reasons to buy any of these alt coins or put money into the industry

also to your point if we look at what Madoff did with a regulated US stock market and how everything went back to normal it just shows that as long as there's money to be made people will flock in. it will probably eventually recover either to some degree or even go to newer highs but i just think this set it back many years

they need to allow proper investing/trading of btc/eth in the US first to regain confidence and not force people to go to offshore exchanges instead, but now that the SEC commissioner has been exposed to having strong ties with SBF and ftx there's almost no chance that guy does something worthwhile

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by dmash

Michael Saylor is down over 40% on his investment, an ~1.7bil loss. El Salvador president is down more than 60%.

We should start by not calling it an investment. It's speculation.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

We should start by not calling it an investment. It's speculation.

I was referring to their words, DEFINITELY not my own logic/thoughts

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by dmash

I was referring to their words, DEFINITELY not my own logic/thoughts

The written word sometimes doesn't relay the meaning well, but I understood you and am in agreement.

[BNA/LION]

Not a good thing for Crypto. Zero coins here. Good Luck to those who have them.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by BNA/LION

Not a good thing for Crypto. Zero coins here. Good Luck to those who have them.

You are such a good dude. Always.

[Moondoggy]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

We should start by not calling it an investment. It's speculation.

I wouldn’t even call it speculation more desperation and I feel sorry for those who got sucked in.

[INC]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

We should start by not calling it an investment. It's speculation.

In fact, the original sin was calling cryptos an investment. After all, there is nothing to invest in, because there are no assets behind, cryptos in itself doesn't produce anything, these doesn't create neither value nor profit. This means that the speculators invested in a "unit of measurement" that may measure the absolutely nothing. But at least they earned a lots of money after they've been able to sell this for the masses in a huge ammount.

"That ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and chicks for free
Now that ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Lemme tell ya them guys ain't dumb"

[JoeJoeBobo]

Based on latest news connecting FTX to a country at war and a particular US political party I see the kid owner either getting killed in jail or completely getting away with stealing billions.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeBobo

Based on latest news connecting FTX to a country at war and a particular US political party I see the kid owner either getting killed in jail or completely getting away with stealing billions.

Couple years in a posh prison, a fine that makes it look like he's being punished, a ban in securities trading for life, and he will be hired back as a consultant when he is free; already flush with cash from this scheme to invest into new ones. Only way he ends up dead is if he opens his mouth.

[HHIslander]

Originally Posted by 77T

I don’t know. In a fundamental way governments could play a role in a disappearance.

In one manner they ban forgery of their fiat currency to protect its value and people’s trust.

If they consider crypto a form of value forgery, in other words no substance, they could outlaw the blockchain transactions that underpin the crypto ledger networks.

Not advocating one way or the other - but China did ban mining and others could follow suit in a similar action for the networks.


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I don't disagree. I do think the crypto with some functional utility will stick around. The "store of value" or "alternative to fiat" crypto with no utility is still massively overvalued from where I am sitting. Governments could very likely do as you suggested.

I do find it hard to believe that the putting money in any crypto, even at these levels, will prove to be a winning strategy. I don't think BTC will bounce back like it has in the past. SBF put the nail in the coffin, particularly when the "I put my money in crypto and now I'm living in a van down by the river" headlines start coming out.

Caveat, I loathe crypto so I am obviously biased.

[espanol]

It's a great question Seth.

I'm rather skeptical of the viability. Not because of the technology, but rather, the limited success (relative to the initial intention) crypto has had up to this point. Not arguing about size, because it's that's your measure of success then crypto has done extremely well. But when you really read into it, it's incredible how far things have... strayed.

I've read 'Nakamoto's first white paper toward Bitcoin, which was meant to be a mechanism for P2P exchange. The entire concept is predicated on stability. You cannot use BTC as a method of mainstream exchange given it's day-to-day volatility. Speculators pumped BTC to be a means of creating easy wealth, as opposed to a method of exchange. Could this ever be reversed? Maybe, but to me it's unlikely. Add in the various optical pitfalls (FTX, ambiguous regulations, meme coins, ICOs, etc) and I personally believe the chance to make crypto effective in everyday use has passed.

[pearson1995]

I have bought a ledger today and for the first time in my life plan to invest in BTC. I’ve always liked its potential but thought it was too hyped in recent years, now seems right.

Bitcoin itself hasn’t changed. And never will.

[enjoythemusic]

With the USA Central Bank now trying to increase their currency product without devaluating it more, here comes CBSC. That seems to intrinsically have far more risk than current digital Dollars in the stock market, banks, paying for oil, etc.

Not sure how their continued currency expansion, and now 'E Coin', will fare without devaluation to its intrinsic value.

We live in interesting times.