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Old 18 December 2017, 11:25 AM   #1
Tony64
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UK surgeon pays a high price for this autograph...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile....tials.amp.html

Not to make light of this, but was anyone really harmed?

Don't watchmakers do this when they leave their initials inside the caseback after service? Alright, maybe that was a little insensitive.

Thoughts?
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Old 18 December 2017, 11:37 AM   #2
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That’s crazy.
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Old 18 December 2017, 11:45 AM   #3
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Not the first time I’ve heard of this kind of thing happening
It’s wrong on every single level that anybody can imagine!!!!!!!!
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Old 18 December 2017, 11:56 AM   #4
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I think the worst part of it is what it says about the professionalism and values of the surgeon, not whether or not there was actual harm involved relative to the patient.

I don't even like to wear brand logos, unless it's the logo that identifies an item as being made by a particular brand as we see on cars, watches, clothing, and the like.

It may not be on public display, but I definitely don't want someone else's initials on my liver.
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Old 18 December 2017, 11:58 AM   #5
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My god
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Old 18 December 2017, 11:59 AM   #6
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Thoughts?
A narcissist with 'issues' or perhaps an artist signing his work? Either way it raises a red flag of sorts.
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Old 18 December 2017, 12:00 PM   #7
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Wouldn’t this violate the hypocratic oath... big time?
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Old 18 December 2017, 12:08 PM   #8
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Very odd but successful surgery.

Intent while the patient / victim was helpless.
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Old 18 December 2017, 12:21 PM   #9
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Interesting to get this group feedback. I agree his actions were thoughtless, callous, and completely unprofessional, but I have to admit that initially I found this more a tempest in a teapot.

The action was foolish but the reaction and call for criminal prosecution seemed too extravagant.

Liver transplant is a complex and high risk surgery. It's life and death. I would be grateful for a successful outcome, a functional transplant, and the chance for a normal life, and for that I would owe a great debt to this surgeon's skill. If it were me, I would be more forgiving of his personal failings.

I certainly respect that others feel differently.

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Old 18 December 2017, 12:45 PM   #10
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Wouldn’t this violate the hypocratic oath... big time?
Navy pilots shouldn't be so quick to judge...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...lus/874808001/


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Old 18 December 2017, 12:56 PM   #11
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Wouldn’t this violate the hypocratic oath... big time?
Yes, these actions would violate the Hypocratic Oath.

Yes, these actions would fit the legal definition of Assault and Battery

Yes, these actions would suggest the surgeon “ has a screw loose”
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Old 18 December 2017, 02:11 PM   #12
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Old 18 December 2017, 03:09 PM   #13
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I guess I'm in a minority here but if the guy had just saved my life and I found he'd etched his initials in my liver, it's not something I could get bent out of shape over. I really could not care less

Ok, so he's been a bit foolish, even narcissistic but any other criticisms, such as callous, are a bit harsh.

And as for criminal prosecution? Please. Some people clearly have too much time on their hands. There are far worse people out there doing some pretty naughty shit that need prosecuting long before a man that saves people's lives for a living.

Just my 2c/1.5p.
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Old 18 December 2017, 03:21 PM   #14
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malpractice is a civil offense, but this is a criminal offense? Malpractice kills people and is usually preventable

This, while pointless and unnecessary, should IMO have been handled differently. Such as a temporary suspension without pay, or some other professional reprimand.
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Old 18 December 2017, 04:26 PM   #15
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Good he is suspended.

How can someone that smart and successful be that stupid...?
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Old 18 December 2017, 05:54 PM   #16
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Good he is suspended.

How can someone that smart and successful be that stupid...?
You'd be surprised, Andreas. One of our partners has just left the company; academically, he is probably the most intelligent man I have ever met. He must have a six figure IQ! However, when it comes to common sense he doesn't have the brains he was born with.
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Old 18 December 2017, 05:57 PM   #17
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Navy pilots shouldn't be so quick to judge...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...lus/874808001/




The ridiculous part is when this happened a lot of the news coverage in the US was so vague and they censored the sky art because it was "offensive" so you didn't even have any context as to what all the fake outrage was even about. It took some digging to find the actual pictures. That is ridiculous.

Personally, i think its pretty funny.
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Old 18 December 2017, 07:49 PM   #18
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You'd be surprised, Andreas. One of our partners has just left the company; academically, he is probably the most intelligent man I have ever met. He must have a six figure IQ! However, when it comes to common sense he doesn't have the brains he was born with.


Agreed I’ve met many intelligent but incredibly common sense inept people you could ever come across.


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Old 18 December 2017, 07:58 PM   #19
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Here's a tough one:

Would you rather have successful liver surgery

1) In USA, at USA prices

2) In UK, with NHS pricing, but your liver will be marked/initialed
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Old 18 December 2017, 09:19 PM   #20
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Here's a tough one:

Would you rather have successful liver surgery

1) In USA, at USA prices

2) In UK, with NHS pricing, but your liver will be marked/initialed
I wouldn’t want my new Daytona marked or initialed (happened at UK ADs), so definately don’t want my new liver initialed. I’ll have the insurance company buy American.
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Old 18 December 2017, 09:39 PM   #21
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Here's a tough one:

Would you rather have successful liver surgery

1) In USA, at USA prices

2) In UK, with NHS pricing, but your liver will be marked/initialed
3) In Finland.
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Old 18 December 2017, 09:58 PM   #22
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A narcissist with 'issues' or perhaps an artist signing his work? Either way it raises a red flag of sorts.
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Wouldn’t this violate the hypocratic oath... big time?
Agreed, fully.
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Old 19 December 2017, 12:05 AM   #23
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Wouldn’t this violate the hypocratic oath... big time?
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Yes, these actions would violate the Hypocratic Oath.

Interesting you should mention the Hypocratic oath.
I'm not sure if you mean this one...

“I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses...”

Or it's more modern reinterpretation...

"We promise to bear witness to historical injustices that continue to unfold for marginalized communities...”

https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/21/...dents-doctors/


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Old 19 December 2017, 12:20 AM   #24
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Yes, these actions would fit the legal definition of Assault and Battery
Not wanting to pick nits here, and I'm neither a legal nor medical authority, but for this to be assault and battery, wouldn't the surgeon need to have threatened the patient first?

"I'm gonna tattoo your liver, punk!", and then follow through with resulting bodily harm?

Obviously we'll agree to disagree on the actual harm caused by this surgeon's actions, and I'll concede that your views seem to be in the majority, but I'd still be grateful for a surgeon's skill and dedication that saved my life - with or without his initials unseen and (previously) unknown on my liver...


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Old 19 December 2017, 01:47 AM   #25
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Not wanting to pick nits here, and I'm neither a legal nor medical authority, but for this to be assault and battery, wouldn't the surgeon need to have threatened the patient first?

"I'm gonna tattoo your liver, punk!", and then follow through with resulting bodily harm?

Obviously we'll agree to disagree on the actual harm caused by this surgeon's actions, and I'll concede that your views seem to be in the majority, but I'd still be grateful for a surgeon's skill and dedication that saved my life - with or without his initials unseen and (previously) unknown on my liver...



I'm with you on this Tony.

If this man has just saved my life by successfully transplanting a liver into my body he can brand a phallus on it for all I care.

I'm not going to see it or feel it. And as for battery, he's just cut me open and hacked out my old liver. A few marks here and there are nothing...
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Old 19 December 2017, 03:50 AM   #26
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Not wanting to pick nits here, and I'm neither a legal nor medical authority, but for this to be assault and battery, wouldn't the surgeon need to have threatened the patient first?

"I'm gonna tattoo your liver, punk!", and then follow through with resulting bodily harm?

Obviously we'll agree to disagree on the actual harm caused by this surgeon's actions, and I'll concede that your views seem to be in the majority, but I'd still be grateful for a surgeon's skill and dedication that saved my life - with or without his initials unseen and (previously) unknown on my liver...


No problem at all.
I reviewed the definitions before posting my comments.
The actions against an unconscious person are more nebulous but still fit the criteria. That said, I defer to anybody who’s more knowledgeable.

What is most troubling in this situation is how odd the behavior is in a physician
It is a huge red flag and would get you kicked off a medical staff, evaluated for impairment, etc.
This is not a trifling matter.

Primum Non Nocere “ First Do No Harm”
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Old 19 December 2017, 04:24 AM   #27
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I guess I'm in a minority here but if the guy had just saved my life and I found he'd etched his initials in my liver, it's not something I could get bent out of shape over. I really could not care less

Ok, so he's been a bit foolish, even narcissistic but any other criticisms, such as callous, are a bit harsh.

And as for criminal prosecution? Please. Some people clearly have too much time on their hands. There are far worse people out there doing some pretty naughty shit that need prosecuting long before a man that saves people's lives for a living.

Just my 2c/1.5p.
Absolutely agree with you but more to the point so do a number of patients or family of patients I heard speaking on a radio phone in, they were taking the opportunity to thank him for saving lives and had nothing but praise for him.
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Old 19 December 2017, 04:56 AM   #28
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Wrong on SO many levels. The only thing worse than reading his actions are reading the responses that defend it. He’s special because he can perform a transplant? WTF- LOL

PLENTY of surgeons who can do what hes doing without the MASSIVE ego involved. Sickens me.
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Old 19 December 2017, 05:01 AM   #29
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Interesting to get this group feedback. I agree his actions were thoughtless, callous, and completely unprofessional, but I have to admit that initially I found this more a tempest in a teapot.

The action was foolish but the reaction and call for criminal prosecution seemed too extravagant.


Liver transplant is a complex and high risk surgery. It's life and death. I would be grateful for a successful outcome, a functional transplant, and the chance for a normal life, and for that I would owe a great debt to this surgeon's skill. If it were me, I would be more forgiving of his personal failings.

I certainly respect that others feel differently.

I disagree. I think the judiciary and medical governing body needed to crack down hard on this, if for no other reason than to prevent it happening again in the future. Doing nothing or just giving a slap on the wrist sets a dangerous precedent for others who might try something similar.
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Old 19 December 2017, 05:06 AM   #30
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I think the judiciary and medical governing body needed to crack down hard on this, if for no other reason than to prevent it happening again in the future. Doing nothing or just giving a slap on the wrist sets a dangerous precedent for others who might try something similar.
100% accurate.
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