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Old 22 August 2019, 08:12 AM   #1
pierson
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Help - 1655 Dial Question ~ Did I make a bad purchase?

Ok, so I just bought this 6m serial number 1655. The seller admitted that the second hand is wrong (should have the dot), but stated that the dial is original.

In my (extremely) amateur research, this looks like a Mk2 Dial (“T SWISS T”, without rail lettering), but I also read that those dials are for earlier models up to 5.5m serial...

Am I ok? Or should I be questioning my purchase (well reviewed seller).

Thanks in advance for the help! Love this community
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Old 22 August 2019, 08:29 AM   #2
TurboWatch
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That dial is not a MK 2. It's a MK 1 which was found in watches up to around 3.5 mil serial.
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Old 22 August 2019, 08:37 AM   #3
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That dial is not a MK 2. It's a MK 1 which was found in watches up to around 3.5 mil serial.

Thanks! So, I assume, that’s a bit problematic when the case has a 6,xxx,xxx serial number.... arg

Unless there is real value in that dial and straight second hand?
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Old 22 August 2019, 08:38 AM   #4
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Thanks! So, I assume, that’s a bit problematic when the case has a 6,xxx,xxx serial number.... arg

Unless there is real value in that dial and straight second hand?

You've got a MK 1 dial, MK 2 bezel on a 6 mil case. You know what you have to do :)
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Old 22 August 2019, 08:47 AM   #5
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You've got a MK 1 dial, MK 2 bezel on a 6 mil case. You know what you have to do :)


Thank you, TurboWatch!! I really appreciate the help
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Old 22 August 2019, 09:16 AM   #6
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Looks like one other bidder really caused you some pain.

Without him, you would have gotten it for a more appropriate price, given the mis-matched parts. Very attractive watch to wear in any case.
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Old 22 August 2019, 09:38 AM   #7
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Everything could be OK .... except the serial number. There were sometimes MK1 dials with MK2 bezels, and the straight hand is correct on the MK1 dial, of course.

But the value plummets because of the serial number, which is a shame.

What did you pay, if you don't mind me asking? And can you return the watch for a refund?

Just for comparison, here is my MK2.
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Old 22 August 2019, 11:08 AM   #8
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I think this was the Matthew Bain eBay auction, which ended at about $18k. The sweep hand was disclosed to be incorrect for the serial number, but the dial was not, in fact it very clearly says "original dial", which is incorrect. So even though it was a no return auction, I think that the buyer could make a case to return it if he wants to.
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Old 22 August 2019, 02:35 PM   #9
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I think this was the Matthew Bain eBay auction, which ended at about $18k. The sweep hand was disclosed to be incorrect for the serial number, but the dial was not, in fact it very clearly says "original dial", which is incorrect. So even though it was a no return auction, I think that the buyer could make a case to return it if he wants to.
I thought Matthew Bain was considered a relatively well known vintage dealer. Surprising they'd miss that. But then again, they sold me a service case Sub which they said was unpolished, which ended up being clearly re-cut.
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Old 22 August 2019, 08:02 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Dan S View Post
I think this was the Matthew Bain eBay auction, which ended at about $18k. The sweep hand was disclosed to be incorrect for the serial number, but the dial was not, in fact it very clearly says "original dial", which is incorrect. So even though it was a no return auction, I think that the buyer could make a case to return it if he wants to.
Unfortunately, ‘original’ can mean different things in the world of vintage. It without doubt original Rolex, but not original to this watch. At that money, I’d expect all to be original (or as close to) as possible. As is well-known, the 1655 had many variations in a relatively small amount of time and finding an all-original piece is a struggle.
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Old 23 August 2019, 12:11 AM   #11
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Unfortunately, ‘original’ can mean different things in the world of vintage.
This is absolutely true, but if you look at the context, it's clearly an omission, since the comment about the dial being original is in the exact same sentence as the comment about the second hand being incorrect. It's also sort of bizarre that the listing mentions that the correct second hand should be "Mercedes" style, which is clearly ridiculous, but maybe just an innocent slip. Still, it makes you wonder who is handling these eBay listings, since Matthew Bain himself would certainly know better.

Here is the relevant part of the listing, the boldface is added by me for emphasis:

----------------

Brand: Rolex

Model Number: 1655

Model: Explorer II

Material: Stainless Steel

Function: Time, Date, 24 Hour Hand

Dial: Original Dial, please see pictures. The “Straight second hand is not correct for this year”

Movement: Automatic, cal 1570

Case Size: Approximately 40mm

Condition: Excellent, Some light wear and case polish, Please see pictures.

Notes: Comes on Rolex Heavy Oyster Bracelet with “580” end links and 78360buckle, will fit an 8 Inch wrist. Very rare model often called the “Steve McQueen” or Freccione. 6,004,XXX serial number. This watch has the rare “straight second hand” however it is too late to have this hand, it should have the “Mercedes” hand. The watch is running, however it is not keeping accurate time, service is recommended, sold as is.
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Old 23 August 2019, 01:22 AM   #12
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Bain gets some serious watches, but on another forum in regards to a Zentih a386, a forum member purchased a386 with a caseback that was totally incorrect. I believe he did offer a refund, but between that and this thread, that’s three watches with “issues” and watches with issues can be find, as long as it’s disclosed and reflected in the price.


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Old 23 August 2019, 01:54 AM   #13
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Bain gets some serious watches ...
I think it's fair to say that he doesn't put his best pieces up for auction on eBay.
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Old 23 August 2019, 02:13 AM   #14
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MB sold me a SD as all original. Hands turned out relumed. I got a refund however. Then I saw the same watch relisted as all original a few months later. I called them out on it and they changed the listing.
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Old 23 August 2019, 02:30 AM   #15
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I agree with all the above, I think Bain uses ebay to unload the non-alpha stuff.

Miami is a big city and odds are he probably pays the best for good vintage in that market. I would not be surprised if other smaller watch dealers will bring him several watches for a package deal and the great stuff goes on his own website or is sold through his alpha watch network and the other watches he starts at 99 cents and sells with no reserve auctions.

Nothing wrong with how he is selling on ebay, but he should pick up on the irregularities that other people find before he lists the watch on ebay. In fairness to him, we are all human and make mistakes and three watches that I have heard about with issues he has offered full refunds on them all, so at least he is stand up in that regard.
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Old 23 August 2019, 02:39 AM   #16
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Shady dealer in my book...sell relumes and franken watches and hope your too stupid to notice...
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Old 23 August 2019, 02:50 AM   #17
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Matt will make it right if necessary. I would just try to source a correct case and switch. I’m sure theres one around with service parts. Then you have one nice early 1655 and a cheap donor watch with service parts.

Lesson is to read up before buying. It could however be much, much worse.
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Old 23 August 2019, 03:09 AM   #18
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So spend another 10-15k to make the watch you want??? I will pass....
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Old 23 August 2019, 03:15 AM   #19
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So spend another 10-15k to make the watch you want??? I will pass....
Well.. It is potentially a pretty nice straight hand. Each to their own if it is worth the trouble. It is a way to fix a bad decision without losing money. It could be a cheap and nice early ExpII.
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Old 23 August 2019, 03:50 AM   #20
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Since he’s a good guy I would send it back to him so he can sell it to a rookie or someone who won’t ever come on this forum and they can just enjoy it
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Old 23 August 2019, 09:00 AM   #21
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This is absolutely true, but if you look at the context, it's clearly an omission, since the comment about the dial being original is in the exact same sentence as the comment about the second hand being incorrect. It's also sort of bizarre that the listing mentions that the correct second hand should be "Mercedes" style, which is clearly ridiculous, but maybe just an innocent slip. Still, it makes you wonder who is handling these eBay listings, since Matthew Bain himself would certainly know better.

Here is the relevant part of the listing, the boldface is added by me for emphasis:

----------------

Brand: Rolex

Model Number: 1655

Model: Explorer II

Material: Stainless Steel

Function: Time, Date, 24 Hour Hand

Dial: Original Dial, please see pictures. The “Straight second hand is not correct for this year”

Movement: Automatic, cal 1570

Case Size: Approximately 40mm

Condition: Excellent, Some light wear and case polish, Please see pictures.

Notes: Comes on Rolex Heavy Oyster Bracelet with “580” end links and 78360buckle, will fit an 8 Inch wrist. Very rare model often called the “Steve McQueen” or Freccione. 6,004,XXX serial number. This watch has the rare “straight second hand” however it is too late to have this hand, it should have the “Mercedes” hand. The watch is running, however it is not keeping accurate time, service is recommended, sold as is.

This is my point exactly. There are very few trustworthy people.
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Old 23 August 2019, 09:16 AM   #22
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Just to be clear, I'm not jumping to the conclusion that any error in the listing was intentional. In fact, since the incorrect seconds hand was disclosed, I would lean towards the conclusion that the person who wrote the listing may not have realized that the dial was incorrect. My point was simply that this error would be sufficient to justify a return by eBay rules, although it seems that the seller is perfectly willing to take the watch back with no trouble.
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Old 23 August 2019, 11:21 AM   #23
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Thank you all!!

FYI - seller did right by me. All good!! All right.
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Old 27 August 2019, 01:38 AM   #24
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Just to be clear, I'm not jumping to the conclusion that any error in the listing was intentional. In fact, since the incorrect seconds hand was disclosed, I would lean towards the conclusion that the person who wrote the listing may not have realized that the dial was incorrect. My point was simply that this error would be sufficient to justify a return by eBay rules, although it seems that the seller is perfectly willing to take the watch back with no trouble.
I wouldn't let the seller off the hook this easily. Bain is a longtime dealer, and very knowledgeable. This was a very sloppy listing with important details seemingly omitted on purpose. Not cool.
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Old 27 August 2019, 03:19 AM   #25
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I wouldn't let the seller off the hook this easily. Bain is a longtime dealer, and very knowledgeable. This was a very sloppy listing with important details seemingly omitted on purpose. Not cool.
Tis’ The norm for a lot of big Dealers it seems,Buy the Seller mantra is fading quickly.A lot of uneducated Buyers get burnt by this fallacy because it’s a big name,It’s good to go.
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Old 27 August 2019, 03:37 AM   #26
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Shady dealer in my book...sell relumes and franken watches and hope your too stupid to notice...
"you're"

Case in point.
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Old 30 August 2019, 07:11 AM   #27
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MB sold me a SD as all original. Hands turned out relumed. I got a refund however. Then I saw the same watch relisted as all original a few months later. I called them out on it and they changed the listing.
So your the 4th watch, that we know of. How many don't we know of.
Sounds like MB operates by the catch me if you can mantra.
Not cool by any means as he is or was regarded as a reputable dealer.
He may be knowledgeable but reputable is a big question mark in my book.

And I don't buy the excuse that it slipped by him. His name is on the store front, he should make sure he or his people don't put this type of stuff up for sale without proper disclosure.

Issuing refunds don't make it 100% right either. It just makes it that he's not an outright crook.
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Old 30 August 2019, 08:53 AM   #28
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.........................................

And I don't buy the excuse that it slipped by him. His name is on the store front, he should make sure he or his people don't put this type of stuff up for sale without proper disclosure.

Issuing refunds don't make it 100% right either. It just makes it that he's not an outright crook.
Correct !
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Old 12 September 2019, 02:22 PM   #29
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Shady dealer in my book...sell relumes and franken watches and hope your too stupid to notice...


I agree. That’s a deceiving description from people who know better. I don’t know much, but if you can’t count on a pro to describe a piece accurately, no matter if it’s one of their Best pieces or looser Ebay pieces, then I think they are running a shady biz.


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Old 12 September 2019, 02:25 PM   #30
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Thank you all!!

FYI - seller did right by me. All good!! All right.


That’s good to know. But the fact that you had to discover stuff they should have disclosed is just not right. They are playing the percentages. They refund/correct the ones that complain but how many do they get away with. A but of a shame in my opinion. I am glad it worked out for you. I almost bought that watch !


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