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Old 17 December 2023, 12:20 PM   #1
7sins
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Getting into VINTAGE Rolex watches...Where to begin/advice!?

The old (or should I say vintage, ahem) adage, they don't make them like they used to, is feeling more and more applicable as I get older.

Living in a city saturated with modern AP/PP/RM/Rolex has given me an appreciation for more esoteric and eccentric vintage watches that are less common and subjectively more aesthetically pleasing. Something about a 6263 Daytona, a bloodstone daydate, AP 5402, 2960 santos ghost etc that is effortlessly chic, enigmatic and is ultimately reigniting my passion for collecting again. Over the years, I have never ventured down the vintage path and as I begin exploring, I am realizing how much more there is to learn.

As my journey begins, I was hoping to have those of you highly experienced in vintage rolex or vintage watches in general share your experience over the yeas, lessons learned and of course any photos you want to share. Hoping a few of you can share insight into several of my questions below as well? Thank you in advance for your time and thoughtful replies ! B

> The majority of vintage watches are much smaller, I feel comfortable in a 37mm 6263 (as the pushers IMO make it wear slightly larger) but curious to everyones thoughts on a 36mm daydate? I have little girl wrists and have always strayed from anything larger than 42mm but at 36mm fees like it would wear quite small? Perhaps the optics of a stone dial like Jasper, Laspis or Malachite optically make the watch wear larger given the empty dial? Thoughts on sizing would be greatly appreciated, not concerned with AP given their lug design makes the watch wear larger. I have several Cartier Tank's and have no issue on their small stature but I feel that is appropriate given they are on strap as well as a dress watch.

> How important is box and papers? The delta for a naked watch vs complete in vintage is significant, more-so than modern watches. Does this impact future resale or are buyers less picky with b/p on vintage watches?

> Without b/p, what is the presence of replica watches? I've read stories where people swap the movement or case etc? Is that still prevalent and how do I ensure a watch is original that is over 50 years old. Any other red flags I should look for when purchasing? Presume I would need the papers to verify the dial hasn't been swapped?

> Is there a preference between 4 and 5 digit rolex?

> Recommended books or websites to further educate myself?

> Are there specific vintage watch dealers you trust and or where are you getting access to collectible vintage watches? I presume I am going to have to shop more auction houses for what I am looking for opposed to C24 and the like I've used to access modern watches. Christies and Sotheby's come to mind, any other auction houses for watches?

> Do you service the watch through an AD or what is the best route for service/maintenance?

>Anything else I am missing besides this will be a much more expensive endeavor than I anticipate?
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Old 17 December 2023, 12:49 PM   #2
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i don't have much overall info on vintage watches as i've only dipped into that market for a vintage cartier santos but i can provide some places to start. from what i've seen though, smaller sizes are back in fashion and been seeing a lot of celebs going for vintage. can't go wrong with a 36mm day date and the ones with stones really are special watches. i think it's a watch that looks better in a smaller size unless you have huge wrists

here are some good dealers i've found while searching, if you're just looking for rolex/patek/ap i think these 3 would be the perfect place to start. not sure how important box/papers are for vintage watches considering i'd imagine there's so few full sets out there. stick with the few good dealers and you shouldn't have to worry about frankens/authenticity

https://www.instagram.com/amsterdamvintagewatches/ - vintage patek/ap/rolex. they specialize in the unique/rare variations so lots of rare gem set/stone pieces (stella, lapis, malachite, etc). if you want a crazy day date this is the place to go, they have access to some of the craziest pieces from the 80s/90s across those 3 brands. obviously they're in europe but worth checking out considering what they have

https://www.instagram.com/veritasvintagewatches/ - same as above but more plain jane stuff. bought from them before and they will answer any and every question you have on vintage

https://tropicalwatch.com/ or https://www.instagram.com/watchand/ (Jacek on here, i believe located in socal) - every vintage rolex you can imagine and some APs/pateks. could probably find whatever you're looking for from him
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Old 17 December 2023, 01:17 PM   #3
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I'm no expert but plenty of experts here. Honestly I would go straight to Jacek at Tropical Watch and strike up a discussion.

I think 5 digits are the sweet spot between new and old with the older design but mostly modern movements. But some people like the aged dials, patinaed lume and so on. Just have to pick something you like.

Also with the 5 digits there is enough supply not to make fakes and frankenwatches/artificial aging as much as a worry. But it happens. It's a tricky market and gets trickier the older you go.
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Old 17 December 2023, 02:19 PM   #4
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Start with finding a knowledgeable and reputable dealer. In socal there is Michael Morgan of Iconic Watches that specializes in vintage.
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Old 17 December 2023, 03:24 PM   #5
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Tropical watch have a great reputation you could also try wind vintage they always have some great references. For me I love 5 digits (16710) size wise it would work for you but I’m guessing some people would say they are semi vintage.
As for servicing find a great independent some get mentioned on here from time to time Bob Ridley springs to mind
It is a minefield but I do believe if you buy from the right people you should be able to find something that you’ll love. And for me the older watches just look better.
Good luck in the search
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Old 17 December 2023, 04:03 PM   #6
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Welcome to the party. Best decision I made was adding vintage this year. Like you, I wanted something objectively rare, something aesthetically pleasing, and something that not every celeb has just because they can - something entirely unique and special to me, and no one else. The hunt for the right specimen is all the more fun that way.

I bought this, a blackout 14270 from 1989 in excellent condition. I estimate about 500, or certainly sub 1000 in existence. And I LOVE the 36mm size.

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Old 17 December 2023, 04:11 PM   #7
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Old 17 December 2023, 04:58 PM   #8
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The thread I needed too. Thank you for starting this. Following closely and good luck with your search.
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Old 17 December 2023, 05:29 PM   #9
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I am also new in vintage watch. since you mention 5 digits being a vintage, however, I know quite a bit here. I used to collect 16520 for a while. Personally,I wont consider it as vintage, but a lot of people do consider it as such.

First, Variation.
There will be a lot version of the same watch beyond material and color. In general, the 16520 has many version like floating, 4 lines, inverted 6, fat six, regular 5 lines. Even these versions has its own sub-version. Eg. The floating daytona has the legendary porcelain, the regular floating, and a few floating with 400 bezels

Second, Condition.
The 4C in vintage watch is Condition, Condition, Condition, and Condition. I think this is self explanatory.

Third, originality of the parts
This shall fall under the Condition, but a good looking watch doesnt always mean it comes with all period/version correct parts. For this, you need experience or/and trustworthy dealer.

To answer your question regarding box and paper. Full set watch is great, but CONDITION of the watch is way more important.

Replica do exist in vintage, but you can learn to distinguish them. I have seen more frankenstein watch than replica tho.

If you prefer auction house, phillip and monaco legend are also legit. Be aware of the buyer premium tho. Unless you are looking for some godly relic watch like the 6269 or chairman, vintage watch dealer is preferable. Craft and Tailored is based in LA. If you are down to fly to HK, I recommend Vintage Concept.

Servicing is the trickiest one. You should look for a vintage watchmaker. and DONT ever submit vintage watch to RSC. LIKE EVER!!!! unless your vintage watch is like new NOS. Otherwise there is a high chance that they will replace parts of the watch.
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Old 17 December 2023, 06:09 PM   #10
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There is an great sticky on this subject at the top of the section.

"Vintage Rolex Buyer's Guidance to determine the originality of your watch.."

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=353899
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Old 17 December 2023, 06:40 PM   #11
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All the advice above is totally correct. The knowledge shared here is like an encyclopaedia but I have also found Vintage Rolex Forum a very useful tool. In this day and age technology is a great help. Identify the model and use the internet to study. Save multiple images and compare. If I was spending what could be 6 figures on vintage Rolex I’d be paying for the help of Perezcope and TuRo who’s knowledge from years of actually handling pieces is worth a premium.
Don’t be hung up on B&P, they can be put together and papers faked. Dials can be changed over years and unless you have hi-res images of the original watch on the original owners wrist (literally doesn’t happen on a 50 year old watch) you’ll never know. Period correct is the best you’re likely to get unless the original owner still has the watch!
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Old 17 December 2023, 07:02 PM   #12
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I agree with rootbeer. I’d also say try not to start with a very expensive model until you feel comfortable. If you do have to start with a Daytona then fine but pick a really good dealer.

36mm will wear fine.
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Old 18 December 2023, 12:29 AM   #13
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OP, you have a few brick and mortar shops in your area. I suggest going to one and trying on some watches in person. Then start following auctions and reading the forum to get a sense of value and to understand the nuances of the different references. Your questions have been answered many times over on the vintage forum, there is a wealth of information for you to absorb.

Or, if you aren't terribly price-sensitive or concerned about losing money on resale ... just contact a trusted high-end dealer and buy a watch. Spending months learning about the details and patiently hunting for a good watch at a fair price isn't everyone's cup of tea.
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Old 18 December 2023, 02:27 AM   #14
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OP, you have a few brick and mortar shops in your area. I suggest going to one and trying on some watches in person. Then start following auctions and reading the forum to get a sense of value and to understand the nuances of the different references. Your questions have been answered many times over on the vintage forum, there is a wealth of information for you to absorb.

Or, if you aren't terribly price-sensitive or concerned about losing money on resale ... just contact a trusted high-end dealer and buy a watch. Spending months learning about the details and patiently hunting for a good watch at a fair price isn't everyone's cup of tea.
I think this is good advice and sometimes you just have to take some risks and learn from your mistakes. That is true knowledge through experience.
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Old 18 December 2023, 02:30 AM   #15
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Start with 5513/1680/1675 and only buy original dial and hand watches
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Old 18 December 2023, 02:43 AM   #16
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[C]urious to everyone’s thoughts on a 36mm daydate?
If a 37mm Daytona’s size suits you, I think there’s no need to fear that a 36mm DD will seem small (as is often mentioned, neither LBJ nor Tony Soprano were small guys, and both wore DD36es). Of course there is no substitute for trying any watch on your own wrist, but I believe the DD36 dials are actually larger than those in the 6263.

As to box and papers, some vintage collectors do insist on full sets, but to me condition is far more important.

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Originally Posted by 7sins View Post
Any other red flags I should look for when purchasing? Presume I would need the papers to verify the dial hasn't been swapped?
Most DD papers do not disclose the original dial, so most often there is simply no way to be 100% certain what dial was born on any DD. Some research will usually reveal whether a dial is at least period correct, and further details can sometimes make a later DD service dial apparent.

DD dials are by far most commonly faked/repainted/“customized” bits. “Custom” diamond bezels are also very common. President bracelets are sometimes faked, DD cases very rarely. (If you’re considering a diamond bezel piece, this thread from David is invaluable.)

I’ll echo the above advice - Buy from an established vintage dealer who’ll stand behind their pieces. Eric Ku, Eric Wind, Jacek, Matt Bain, Andrew Shear, Carl at Veralet, and Adam Golden at Menta (among others) are widely considered to be knowledgeable and honest.

Be patient and enjoy the hunt! One of the very best things about the DD36 is the nearly infinite variety of dials, bezels, bracelets, etc.
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Old 18 December 2023, 01:16 PM   #17
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You’ve received good sound advice from many above.

I’d say 4 digit or 5 digit Rolex is totally up to your individual preference.

No matter how much you learn in the vintage area, one of the best things you can possibly do is get clear photos of your potential purchase and have people here in the vintage section of TRF and the great vintage collectors site of Vintage Rolex Forum (VRF) help you vet your purchase prior to finalizing it.

Good idea to do this even if buying from a reputable dealer.

It can save you a lot of unnecessary pain and frustration in the end for sure…
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Old 18 December 2023, 08:54 PM   #18
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The old (or should I say vintage, ahem) adage, they don't make them like they used to, is feeling more and more applicable as I get older.

Living in a city saturated with modern AP/PP/RM/Rolex has given me an appreciation for more esoteric and eccentric vintage watches that are less common and subjectively more aesthetically pleasing. Something about a 6263 Daytona, a bloodstone daydate, AP 5402, 2960 santos ghost etc that is effortlessly chic, enigmatic and is ultimately reigniting my passion for collecting again. Over the years, I have never ventured down the vintage path and as I begin exploring, I am realizing how much more there is to learn.

As my journey begins, I was hoping to have those of you highly experienced in vintage rolex or vintage watches in general share your experience over the yeas, lessons learned and of course any photos you want to share. Hoping a few of you can share insight into several of my questions below as well? Thank you in advance for your time and thoughtful replies ! B

> The majority of vintage watches are much smaller, I feel comfortable in a 37mm 6263 (as the pushers IMO make it wear slightly larger) but curious to everyones thoughts on a 36mm daydate? I have little girl wrists and have always strayed from anything larger than 42mm but at 36mm fees like it would wear quite small? Perhaps the optics of a stone dial like Jasper, Laspis or Malachite optically make the watch wear larger given the empty dial? Thoughts on sizing would be greatly appreciated, not concerned with AP given their lug design makes the watch wear larger. I have several Cartier Tank's and have no issue on their small stature but I feel that is appropriate given they are on strap as well as a dress watch.

> How important is box and papers? The delta for a naked watch vs complete in vintage is significant, more-so than modern watches. Does this impact future resale or are buyers less picky with b/p on vintage watches?

> Without b/p, what is the presence of replica watches? I've read stories where people swap the movement or case etc? Is that still prevalent and how do I ensure a watch is original that is over 50 years old. Any other red flags I should look for when purchasing? Presume I would need the papers to verify the dial hasn't been swapped?

> Is there a preference between 4 and 5 digit rolex?

> Recommended books or websites to further educate myself?

> Are there specific vintage watch dealers you trust and or where are you getting access to collectible vintage watches? I presume I am going to have to shop more auction houses for what I am looking for opposed to C24 and the like I've used to access modern watches. Christies and Sotheby's come to mind, any other auction houses for watches?

> Do you service the watch through an AD or what is the best route for service/maintenance?

>Anything else I am missing besides this will be a much more expensive endeavor than I anticipate?
I’d recommend Andrew Shear (Shear Time in NYC), Justin Gruenberg (The Keystone in Los Angeles), and Ivan Hong (Ivan Watches in Hong Kong).

For servicing, I’d recommend True Patina / Greg Petronzi
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Old 19 December 2023, 05:02 AM   #19
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If you want to actually try on some watches, try Wanna Buy a Watch on Melrose. They have a very nice selection of vintage everything, Subs, GMTs, Day Dates, Date Just etc., and other brands. Oliver and Clark, by appointment only but a very large assortment of rare vintage Rolex and others. Just down the street from LACMA. Second Time Around has a few Date Just only (usually) but worth a look, just south of Wilshire on Beverly Drive.
https://wannabuyawatch.com/
https://oliverandclarke.com/
https://secondtimearoundwatchco.com/
Gotta try them on at least!
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Old 19 December 2023, 08:17 AM   #20
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I would not trust Oliver in Clarke for a seasoned collector let alone someone new. Lots of info on the forum explaining why. I don't mean to be rude - not a trusted seller here and also a questionable history of cobbled together watches.
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Old 19 December 2023, 10:22 AM   #21
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Start with 5513/1680/1675 and only buy original dial and hand watches
You won't go wrong with that advice. Absolute essentials.
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Old 19 December 2023, 10:52 AM   #22
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You won't go wrong with that advice. Absolute essentials.
Something tells me that 5513/1680/1675 are too lowbrow and mundane for the OP.
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Old 19 December 2023, 10:57 AM   #23
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Eric Wind is also a pretty reputable dealer for vintage watches.
On his website there is a full set 6263 which might be up your alley B.
His prices are steep though, but for vintage it is better to buy from someone reputable than saving a couple of grand for higher risk.
https://www.windvintage.com/rolex-bi...-6263-full-set
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Old 19 December 2023, 10:57 AM   #24
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Eric Wind is also a pretty reputable dealer for vintage watches.
On his website there is a full set 6263 which might be up your alley B.
His prices are steep though, but for vintage it is better to buy from someone reputable than saving a couple of grand for higher risk.
https://www.windvintage.com/rolex-bi...-6263-full-set
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Old 19 December 2023, 11:08 AM   #25
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I would not trust Oliver in Clarke for a seasoned collector let alone someone new. Lots of info on the forum explaining why. I don't mean to be rude - not a trusted seller here and also a questionable history of cobbled together watches.
Not offended. Just thought I would suggest a few places in the Los Angeles area where you can try on vintage watches that you can usually only see online. Definitely try it on before you take the plunge. Besides, with the experts here, I would be pretty comfortable (doing my research first of course) asking the experts for opinions on authenticity. As it is said many times, vintage is a mine field.
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Old 19 December 2023, 04:32 PM   #26
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I have collected vintage almost exclusively (though not Rolex) for the last couple years, and all I would add to what’s already been said is that, when you are looking at a specific watch, you want to become an expert on that watch before you buy it. I found that you can easily get distracted by a similar model to one you know, find that it seems to be inexplicably cheaper, though similar to the one you’re looking at- when in all likelihood, there may be something devaluing that model that you’re not aware of. Also, condition is everything, b/p are novel, but don’t give provenance.

I aim to refer to at least two known original examples in the exact configuration as the watch I’m looking at to compare before I buy; this isn’t always possible, but it usually is, especially with the help of forums like these.

Have fun!
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Old 20 December 2023, 02:01 AM   #27
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PM’d you some of my takeaways
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Old 21 January 2024, 05:08 AM   #28
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Something tells me that 5513/1680/1675 are too lowbrow and mundane for the OP.
Duplicate post.
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Old 21 January 2024, 05:22 AM   #29
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Something tells me that 5513/1680/1675 are too lowbrow and mundane for the OP.
Yes this laundry list is more akin to John Player Special Exotic Daytona, Gold moon-phase, etc...etc ..

Richard Mille RG RM030 || Richard Mille RM72ti || AP 26240 50TH Green Royal Oak Chrono || AP Royal Oak Blue JUMBO SS 15202ST || AP ROO Diver Green 15720ST || ♕ Rolex Platinum Daytona Diamond 116506 || Cartier Santos
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Old 21 January 2024, 06:04 AM   #30
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Yes this laundry list is more akin to John Player Special Exotic Daytona, Gold moon-phase, etc...etc ..

Richard Mille RG RM030 || Richard Mille RM72ti || AP 26240 50TH Green Royal Oak Chrono || AP Royal Oak Blue JUMBO SS 15202ST || AP ROO Diver Green 15720ST || ♕ Rolex Platinum Daytona Diamond 116506 || Cartier Santos
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Well, I had forgotten about this thread. I wonder if the OP has any updates on his search. Maybe even a wrist-shot with his first vintage purchase.
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