I don't understand some vintage

[Patton250]

I found this piece for sale from a guy I have bought from before and absolutely will again. Has a great reputation. However I just do not understand. If I didn't know the price ahead of time I absolutely wouldn't pay $1000 for it. When you buy vintage cars or antique furniture or anything that holds value because it's old it's usually in very good condition. This thing is completely trashed. I would be afraid it would cut my wrist. It's as if some guys were cleaning out grandpa's attic and found this in some box. Are there some of you that would actually like to own a piece like this? Full disclosure it's a 1959 and selling for $20,000. I would be very interested to hear the opinions from vintage watch collectors on this. Thanks guys.

[superstarmar]

It's vintage alright ... hopefully others will chime in ...

[Black Bay Dan]

Not for me. If I were to buy a watch that old I would want it in really nice condition. A bit like classic cars, I would like mine to be like new or restored, not a total barn find. I know a lot of car collectors say a car is only original once and that you would not repaint an antique oil painting, as a way of justifying a survivor car. The fact is that old paintings are restored by galleries the world over, so I do not see the issue with restoring a classic car or a Rolex watch.

Dan

[exador]

Assume it's a 5508. Just needs a new insert and you're good to go (presuming you could find one). $20K isn't outrageous.

[yannis]

Need more pics. It does not look that bad actually. Needs some TLC.

[themaninblack]

The watch is not in really great shape but there is an originality factor that makes it desirable. These were made in relatively small numbers compared to say, the 5513 and this piece looks like it's largely original and I guess that's why he's left that hacked up insert on the watch, not sure if it's original. The hands have been replaced. Is the price steep? Time will tell!

[brandrea]

If it's the same 6536 for sale at HQ Milton I'd say it's fairly priced.

The case looks decent and so does the dial. An new insert can be sourced for it but may take some time.

https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/...th-papers-7833

[MorningTundra]

If I had that kinda disposable income, I'd absolutely love to own and wear this piece! It's character makes it unique. That corrosion looks like the effects of salt water.


Sent from my cracked, broken, hand wound Phone

[yannis]

Originally Posted by brandrea

If it's the same 6536 for sale at HQ Milton I'd say it's fairly priced.

The case looks decent and so does the final. An new insert can be sourced for it but may take some time.

https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/...th-papers-7833

Well the watch even has original papers. It is the same watch.

[Toronto Soup King]

Not all of us agree about patina, some of us see it as undesirable, and for me nowadays, any visible rust, dirt, or corrosion renders a watch unwearable. My watches are, except for some yellowing on lume plots and hands, all about as close to perfect condition as I can reasonable keep them (to the degree I can see it with my aging eyes too, if my beater Sub is a little overpolished, well, I'd rather have that than covered with scratches). So while many on this forum will consider me an utter philistine for saying so, I wouldn't wear a watch with a dial and hands (to say nothing of that wrecked bezel) in the condition you have it posted.

[fusionstorm]

Plenty of people would jump at the opportunity of buying a $500K home for $250K, if the reasons for the lower price were mostly cosmetic and the house was functional in most all other respects. Why would a vintage Rolex be any different?

[Haywood_Milton]

Who needs an excuse....?













I'd pay for a "tatty" but correct watch like this, as would many!

Haywood

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by fusionstorm

Plenty of people would jump at the opportunity of buying a $500K home for $250K, if the reasons for the lower price were mostly cosmetic and the house was functional in most all other respects. Why would a vintage Rolex be any different?

That's an interesting way to put it.

Thanks for everybody's responses and opinions. This is a very interesting thread.

[Tools]

Collecting watches is no different than collecting any other item.

Originality, rarity, and a market for the product drive pricing. Art is the same.. an original Picasso will draw top dollar if it is original.

In both cases there will never be another one exactly like that one.


A 50 year old Timex or your kids paintings may be original and rare, but they do not have a market.

[AK797]

I used to want a watch to be in near perfect condition but as I've gotten older I am more forgiving of flaws and appreciate character and charm more, ofc there is no correlation.

[onthedial]

@Patton250
Remember also that these early Subs were first and foremost tool watches; their appearance as such makes one wonder, The stories they could tell... And that's just it, these watches embody history. Every collector I know cherishes this aspect of acquiring "X," whether it's a rare book, a classic car, or a blue chip painting--they consider themselves stewards of valuable, historical, culturally important objects, rather than mere owners of things/commodities.
__________
Instagram: @onthedial

[Wesley Crusher]

Originally Posted by fusionstorm

Plenty of people would jump at the opportunity of buying a $500K home for $250K, if the reasons for the lower price were mostly cosmetic and the house was functional in most all other respects. Why would a vintage Rolex be any different?

I don't think your analogy translates very well.

The home owner can replace all of the broken/falling apart items with new items and increase the value of the home.

A vintage owner cannot replace the parts with new parts and increase the value. In fact, the value may actually decrease.

IMO, condition is just as important as originality.

JMO.

[Paul]

I'd award top marks to HQMilton for how they present their watches for sale. Warts and all big macro pics and careful, detailed descriptions means their buyers really can see what they are getting. A trade-off can sometimes be that a nice watch, with great appeal to the naked eye, can look positively wretched in large macro pics. That may be what we are seeing here with HQMilton's 6536-1.

I kinda like HQMilton's watch. The case looks healthy to me, plenty of meat on the lugs and rounding that I might associate more with wear rather than aggresive polishing. I see typical ageing on the dial that I associate with the era and that wonderful deep lustre to the gilt that had been toned down a bit on some of the later gilt dials. Typical spotting on the dial but it certainly has character. The heavy patina is a reminder too that the gilt dials were essentially a failure for Rolex, with many swapped off at service. There are a few examples of early gilt dials that have survived really well ...... but there's probably more that present with patina, sometimes to an extreme degree.

Nice to see the original insert although for me, that one just teeters on the edge of the " ...Could I live with it ?..." scale. A pity that the original hands have gone but perhaps a flat set could be found that present as closer to the original specs. And papers don't lure me in personally but lots of folk like them and the era-correct dated rivet bracelet certainly adds value for me.

The price .... I say it's reasonable. The small-crown early Subs don't command the prices we see for the big crown references but I'd rather fancy adding HQMilton's 6536-1 to my motley collection if I was in the market for one.

As a basis for comparison, I see a (perhaps) comparable 6536-1 that failed to sell on eBay just today- see the link below. Low res. pics unfortunately and priced at $15k, the eBay watch had no bracelet, no papers, an after-market insert and replacement hands. Looks like the case may have been dressed up recently too, a new trend that we are seeing which I always feel is at odds with an otherwise, heavily-patina'd watch. Just my personal opinion

NB: The eBay watch found no buyers at $15k ..... and was quickly relisted at $18, 749. Go figure

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-ROLE...QAAOSw1KxXMYmw

[sensui]

Yeah....I'm in the camp of wanting some sort of condition to go along with vintage as well....I don't get the diseased looking watches/corroded dials/case (I think now it's adopted new terms like extreme tropical) selling for 20k+. But I know there are plenty of people that find character in these pieces and romanticize about the stories these watches have and praise the "aging" these pieces have went through....I get it I guess, just not for me.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by sensui

Yeah....I'm in the camp of wanting some sort of condition to go along with vintage as well....I don't get the diseased looking watches/corroded dials/case (I think now it's adopted new terms like extreme tropical) selling for 20k+. But I know there are plenty of people that find character in these pieces and romanticize about the stories these watches have and praise the "aging" these pieces have went through....I get it I guess, just not for me.

That's exactly how I feel about it. My favorite term is "creamy" when talking about the markers. Of course when they are really old markers than they are "dark creamy". To each his own. Of course it's up to the buyer. If somebody wants to pay 20K for a piece like that I say go for it. I can't imagine what a 100% original and pristine piece would go for that. Does anybody know?

[exador]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I can't imagine what a 100% original and pristine piece would go for that. Does anybody know?

http://www.chrono24.com/rolex/rolex-...-id5416769.htm

Send a price request

[Dr.Smellody]

I'm just sad about all that I could have had.. but passed over twenty years ago in hopes of one day affording a modern sapphire crystal variant. . . .

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by exador

http://www.chrono24.com/rolex/rolex-...-id5416769.htm

Send a price request

Wow well done. Nice find. It has very dark creamy markers.

[Old Expat Beast]

I just wonder how bad decay has to get before the value starts to decline. Where is the top of the curve?

[Wesley Crusher]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

I just wonder how bad decay has to get before the value starts to decline. Where is the top of the curve?

From what I've seen, any sort of damage will impact value, regardless of watch. Rare and and ultra rare watches are affected less by decay, but are still affected.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by Wesley Crusher

From what I've seen, any sort of damage will impact value, regardless of watch. Rare and and ultra rare watches are affected less by decay, but are still affected.

Yes, I was just wondering about how far into the ageing process the rise in value can be sustained...for example, would the above watch be worth a quarter million dollars or nothing at all 100 years from now, if it kept ageing at its current rate.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Yes, I was just wondering about how far into the ageing process the rise in value can be sustained...for example, would the above watch be worth a quarter million dollars or nothing at all 100 years from now, if it kept ageing at its current rate.

That is a killer question. I would be very interested to know the answer to that as well.

[sensui]

Originally Posted by Patton250

That is a killer question. I would be very interested to know the answer to that as well.

The answer I think is simple. It'll stop rising when people stop paying. All the dealers know this.

[MorningTundra]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Yes, I was just wondering about how far into the ageing process the rise in value can be sustained...for example, would the above watch be worth a quarter million dollars or nothing at all 100 years from now, if it kept ageing at its current rate.

Interesting idea... perhaps there's a peak value/optimum corrosion window; somewhere in that period between creamy patina loveliness and disintegrating tritium, corrosion, pitting and flaking. Perhaps between 40 and 50 years old before artificial intervention is required to slow and stabilize progress...

Also consider, in 2117, this watch will likely be kept running with more aftermarket parts than original and $250k might buy little more than a glass of clean drinking water...


Sent from my cracked, broken, hand wound Phone

[Wesley Crusher]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Yes, I was just wondering about how far into the ageing process the rise in value can be sustained...for example, would the above watch be worth a quarter million dollars or nothing at all 100 years from now, if it kept ageing at its current rate.

For the sake of conversation, let's assume that demand for vintage watches (by our current standards) holds constant over the next 100 years.

I don't know if the above example will be worth a quarter of a million dollars, but I do think that the value will continue to rise. As time goes by and the market dries up, people will lower their standards in terms of what is acceptable/desirable.