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Old 13 December 2017, 11:26 AM   #31
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I have a 20 year old BULOVA Caravelle that I got as a five year anniversary gift from a company I used to work for. One of my favorite watches... still running perfect to this day ..... new band new battery.... new watch
They share movements with Bulova and Citizen, and the mechanicals are bullet proof. They made some really nice watches, especially divers, in the 60s-70s, in Switzerland, Hong Kong, West Germany, Japan, Taiwan...You can almost always date them by the year code on the caseback too, which makes them more interesting to collect.

Here's one of my 70s divers, and a retro Mopar logo piece that I just bought off eBAy.

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Old 13 December 2017, 11:27 AM   #32
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The tourbillon (French for "whirlwind") was designed to keep pocket watches running accurately in any position. Today they're obsolete but beautiful. A luxury complication for luxury watches. This new video clip explains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=halpdw6ujPo
I'm not a technical guy but to answer BC's question and also to address the above and other similar comments it's my understanding that yes, a single tourby probably doesn't do much in terms of timekeeping improvements today. However I think Grubel Forsay would have something to say about tourbys on an angle and multiple tourbys (double and triple) and the tested / measured improvements on rate variation. Stephen Forsay gave a great lecture at the Horological Society earlier in the year and I believe this was the jist of what he was saying (pinch of salt included based on his representation of his own brand!).

To add, BC it seems did do the smart thing at that meeting. He sat back and listened.

I would add that no serious WIS would dismiss Rolex. The same way that no serious WIS would dismiss Seiko. Nor would any serious WIS dismiss a tourby.

Such a big world, so much to learn.
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Old 13 December 2017, 11:48 AM   #33
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I have a 20 year old BULOVA Caravelle that I got as a five year anniversary gift from a company I used to work for. One of my favorite watches... still running perfect to this day ..... new band new battery.... new watch
I found a 62 year old Bulova Sea King in a junk box at a flea market in March. Wound the watch, put it on my wrist and watched it keep time with the Rolex on my other wrist. Still going strong. It's a great watch.
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Old 13 December 2017, 11:48 AM   #34
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One guy was wearing an older Breguet and the retired professor had on a Girard Perregaux. Both were tourbillons and when they started talking about gravitational shifts, floating escapements and whatnot, I became somewhat lost and relegated myself to simply listening and nodding from time to time.
Would have loved to been there. I would have said, while twirling my moustache and monocle :

"Ahh yes, yes. Quite right, quite right. A Gerard Depardieu. Had the pleasure of having one on my wrist when he accidentally sat on my hand. I must say, his movement was exquisite."

followed by :

"Do not pass go! Do not collect $200!"
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Old 13 December 2017, 11:58 AM   #35
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There are levels to every interest, while I haven't had such an encounter in the world of watches, I could easily be outgunned in a discussion of the actual workings of watch movements or complications. It is however something I intend to work on, am looking into some books that would help me learn about it and have the ability to service a simple watch movement myself.

I have had similar encounters in the world of wine. I am a wine enthusiast but have no formal training in wine so my knowledge is all gained through experience and reading. While my knowledge often exceeds that of many of my peers that also lack formal training, when I get in the room and start tasting and talking wine and wine making with my peers who do have formal training (sommeliers and wine makers) I can often be left listening and nodding without much to contribute as the conversation shifts into chemical compounds, yeast strains and the like.

I would like to think those fellow enthusiasts didn't look down on you for your Rolex and likely understood the utility of a Rolex but as their interest was in Haute Horology and movement complication, it wasn't something that peaked their interest or something that was really relevant to their conversation.
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Old 13 December 2017, 12:10 PM   #36
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Call me a watch snob, but I'm more a Caravelle man myself

(Seriously, I own four, all from the 1970s.)
I got my first Caravelle in high school, probably 1965.

A friend of the family, who was a watchmaker, recommended the brand, as it was associated with Bulova at the time. :cheers;

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Old 13 December 2017, 12:14 PM   #37
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I got my first Caravelle in high school, probably 1965.

A friend of the family, who was a watchmaker, recommended the brand, as it was associated with Bulova at the time. :cheers;

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Yeah, Bulova launched the brand in 1962, and they're still around, and still part of Bulova, but their current line-up isn't really to my liking. www.caravellewatches.com
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Old 13 December 2017, 12:21 PM   #38
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Yeah, Bulova launched the brand in 1962, and they're still around, and still part of Bulova, but their current line-up isn't really to my liking. www.caravellewatches.com
I kind of like this one, but I'd like it better if it were just a few millimeters smaller.

https://www.caravellewatches.com/col...roducts/43b152
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Old 13 December 2017, 12:26 PM   #39
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I kind of like this one, but I'd like it better if it were just a few millimeters smaller.

https://www.caravellewatches.com/col...roducts/43b152
Not bad at all for $100.

I was sorry to miss this 1960s Sea Hunter selling here earlier this year: www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=517441
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Old 13 December 2017, 12:45 PM   #40
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Not bad at all for $100.

I was sorry to miss this 1960s Sea Hunter selling here earlier this year: www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=517441
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Old 13 December 2017, 02:33 PM   #41
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Hey BC,

This thread has been on my mind and regarding your comment about tourbillons being a rich man's toy, I'd have to agree, though I probably wouldn't have phrased it as you did.

As others have mentioned, tourbillons once served a functional purpose, but now are mostly for aesthetic purposes. Tourbillions are a way for a watchmaker to show off their technical prowess and artisanal skills. As you know, there are different levels of watchmaking. Once you get to a certain level (e.g., haute horology) a watch is just as much an art piece as it is a tool that tells time.
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Old 13 December 2017, 03:58 PM   #42
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Hey BC,

This thread has been on my mind and regarding your comment about tourbillons being a rich man's toy, I'd have to agree, though I probably wouldn't have phrased it as you did.

As others have mentioned, tourbillons once served a functional purpose, but now are mostly for aesthetic purposes. Tourbillions are a way for a watchmaker to show off their technical prowess and artisanal skills. As you know, there are different levels of watchmaking. Once you get to a certain level (e.g., haute horology) a watch is just as much an art piece as it is a tool that tells time.
Yeah, this.

You can appreciate expensive watches too. Once you realize that even a $10 wristwatch is pretty useless in 2017, and a $450k watch is way more so, Rolex doesn’t stand a chance. Enjoy them all!!!
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Old 14 December 2017, 10:54 AM   #43
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They share movements with Bulova and Citizen, and the mechanicals are bullet proof. They made some really nice watches, especially divers, in the 60s-70s, in Switzerland, Hong Kong, West Germany, Japan, Taiwan...You can almost always date them by the year code on the caseback too, which makes them more interesting to collect.

Here's one of my 70s divers, and a retro Mopar logo piece that I just bought off eBAy.

Adam would the date code be the A2 that is in the case back?

thanks
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Old 14 December 2017, 11:23 AM   #44
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for some reason I feel their obvious lack of enthusiasm for your Rolex was more a statement on the NATO strap than the Rolex itself. I'm just guessing here though.
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Old 14 December 2017, 11:49 AM   #45
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Just returned from a dinner engagement in Ross. A former academic mentor of Mrs. BC's who is now a retired professor invited us over along with two other couples. As it turned out, the retired professor and one of the other male guests happened to be 5th degree/black-belt WIS (in other words, I was way out of their league in terms of watches and knowledge of complex movements). One guy was wearing an older Breguet and the retired professor had on a Girard Perregaux. Both were tourbillons and when they started talking about gravitational shifts, floating escapements and whatnot, I became somewhat lost and relegated myself to simply listening and nodding from time to time.

When one of them asked me what kind of watch I wear for everyday use, I just shrugged and showed them my 16610 on a blue-gray NATO watchstrap. While I wouldn't go so far as to call them watch snobs, it was somewhat obvious that they weren't overly impressed with a Rolex movement.

Which raises a question for the horologically inclined. Are complex tourbillon movements an antiquated watch design and essentially overpriced? There was also mention of a recent offering from Seiko along these lines. Now I had always thought that Grand Seiko represented the top of the Seiko lineup but apparently they have a line called Credor which is their in-house tourbillon. Their masterpiece is something called a Fugaku which apparently retails for around $450K. To date there are only eight in existence and I thought to myself, who buys this kind of watch?

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/th...ion-tourbillon

On the other extreme, manufacturers in China are now cranking out tourbillons for $1500. While their movements are kind of ugly IMO, from a tourbillon standpoint they may be close enough for jazz.

http://www.perpetual-watch.com/tourbillon.html

It appears that Rolex never had much interest in this kind of movement. In terms of overall accuracy/design, a tourbillon movement seems like old technology or just a rich man's toy.

Curious. Are tourbillons impractical for 'sport watch' usage/application as well? The Swiss-made tourbillons look pretty delicate. On the other hand, the Chinese ones look one step above a Seiko 5.
Rolex doesent impress WIS on any level.

Grand Seiko does however because it 'establishes' one as having watch 'knowledge'. I really mean this because truthfully who buys a Grand Seiko? You guessed it. Those who know and those who understand true horology.

Rolex 3135 3235 whatever for all intents is Rolexes version of the ETA 2824. Bulletproof.

Rolex has value because of the Rolex community. Blancpains dont have bad resale value because its not a good watch. They have bad resale because only a WIS knows blancpain. The resale market is all about name recognition.

Again. Rolex does not impress any WIS. Especially WIS who own Rolex.

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Old 14 December 2017, 11:52 AM   #46
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Want to impress a true WIS?


Wear a Seiko MM300 sitting next to someone wearing a Rolex sub.

I love me a Rolex but the name is 75% of the battle. It just is.
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Old 14 December 2017, 01:11 PM   #47
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Rolex has value because of the Rolex community. Blancpains dont have bad resale value because its not a good watch. They have bad resale because only a WIS knows blancpain. The resale market is all about name recognition.
everybody knows Omega and Cartier.. but their watches still have bad resale value.

The resale market is about aspirational buyers. People who want the brand badly enough to accept a previously owned item.

How closely connected are new and used markets? Who knows. People pay sticker price for clothing brands like Polo and J. Crew. Yet used items sell for pennies on the dollar. It seems that if something is accessible at retail, people will steer clear of used.
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Old 14 December 2017, 01:17 PM   #48
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Rolex is not a high-end watch and does not impress watch snobs for good reason.

You were not wearing a watch in their league and you don't know very much about horology.

Calling a tourbillon a "rich man's toy" while wearing a Rolex is ironic, since they actually knew about watches and you don't.

You are like a stereotype of ignorant rolex owners. Wanting people to support you in your ignorance seems a little gross.

The sad part is that if you actually had an interest in watches, it wouldn't have mattered what you were wearing, you could have shared in their passion, rather than being threatened by it.


Wow. This just reads means lol


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Old 14 December 2017, 04:04 PM   #49
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Want to impress a true WIS?


Wear a Seiko MM300 sitting next to someone wearing a Rolex sub.

I love me a Rolex but the name is 75% of the battle. It just is.
This made me miss my MM300
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Old 14 December 2017, 04:59 PM   #50
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for some reason I feel their obvious lack of enthusiasm for your Rolex was more a statement on the NATO strap than the Rolex itself.
Quite possible. Are there watch strap snobs as well?
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Rolex doesent impress WIS on any level.
Striving to impress others is like spinning wheels in the mud.
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Want to impress a true WIS?
Not really.
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Old 14 December 2017, 05:05 PM   #51
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What's worse: a watch snob or a wine/alcohol snob?

The first allows someone to show off wealth while dressing it up with a veneer of horological sophistication. The second allows people to feel proud about getting drunk
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Old 14 December 2017, 05:19 PM   #52
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What's worse: a watch snob or a wine/alcohol snob?
I'm gonna run with the wine snob SF. Especially those types that swear they can detect the exact row, planting, and cluster of grapes from where the vintage originated.
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Old 15 December 2017, 03:06 AM   #53
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I find all snobs boring.

Being on an ego trip because you happened to educate yourself on one subject or another doesn't make you special. While you may know a lot about a certain subject other people know a lot about other subjects.
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Old 15 December 2017, 08:34 AM   #54
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I find all snobs boring.

Being on an ego trip because you happened to educate yourself on one subject or another doesn't make you special. While you may know a lot about a certain subject other people know a lot about other subjects.
Aint that the truth!

Most people who can afford a few Rolex's have stupidly specialized knowledge is some field no one else cares about . . .
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Old 6 January 2018, 04:11 PM   #55
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Best thread I have read on here! just like my perfect mates night out in a Belfast pub!
Been enjoying this so much I've left my Exp2 somewhere round here. If my 3 year old who loves flushing things has it , you are going to see the first expert in U bends and Septic tanks!!

The man makes the watch, the watch does not make the man.
For the bling toys I enjoy. the closest to my heart are my 20 dollar Casio.. my first watch , and a Seiko 6309, which I built from a few scrappers I bought.
People who wear to impress are doing their thing.
People with real in-depth interest are doing their thing.
Jack Nicholson said it... Why can't we all just get along.
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Old 6 January 2018, 05:57 PM   #56
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Rolex doesent impress WIS on any level.

Grand Seiko does however because it 'establishes' one as having watch 'knowledge'. I really mean this because truthfully who buys a Grand Seiko? You guessed it. Those who know and those who understand true horology.

Rolex 3135 3235 whatever for all intents is Rolexes version of the ETA 2824. Bulletproof.

Rolex has value because of the Rolex community. Blancpains dont have bad resale value because its not a good watch. They have bad resale because only a WIS knows blancpain. The resale market is all about name recognition.

Again. Rolex does not impress any WIS. Especially WIS who own Rolex.

I don't know, Rolex seems to impress PP's Thierry Stern, when asked which watch company he most admires, he said Rolex. He said his biggest wish would be an opportunity to visit the Rolex factory, and see how Rolex can make so many movements and yet maintain the quality and accuracy.

Rolex may not make tourbillons or minute repeaters, but they are best at what they do, and that in itself is impressive.

But you are right about GS though, it does take someone who understands horology to buy them.
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Old 6 January 2018, 06:19 PM   #57
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But you are right about GS though, it does take someone who understands horology to buy them.
Have looked at their pieces, have spent time in a GS boutique... but I dunno!

Nicely made, check.

Heritage, check.

Priced... well, seems to be decent range 3-10k with limited editions and some weirder artsy pieces... there'll be a buyer, just not me.

There's not much there IMHO that'll hook someone interested in objects horological... am I impressed with SpringDrive? Hmm... Ok... nah, I prefer mechanical automatics without any electronics governing.
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Old 6 January 2018, 10:25 PM   #58
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Rolex may not make tourbillons or minute repeaters, but they are best at what they do, and that in itself is impressive.
Agree. Put it this way, I may like fancy nice "haute horology" watches. But if I am about to get stuck for a long time in a deserted island, I rather have a Rolex on my wrist.
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Old 6 January 2018, 10:46 PM   #59
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Have looked at their pieces, have spent time in a GS boutique... but I dunno!

Nicely made, check.

Heritage, check.

Priced... well, seems to be decent range 3-10k with limited editions and some weirder artsy pieces... there'll be a buyer, just not me.

There's not much there IMHO that'll hook someone interested in objects horological... am I impressed with SpringDrive? Hmm... Ok... nah, I prefer mechanical automatics without any electronics governing.
Everyone has their preferences and I think part of the point of this thread is to say “hey we all know what we know, and like what we like” dont be all pretentious about it!

So to your preference for non-“electronics governing” I totally respect that, and have similar feelings myself as if using electronics “cheats” the mechanical-ness of the watch. However, learning how GS actually makes the Spring Drive changed my opinions of it. It is a masterclass in craftsmanship and engineering. I would LOVE to own one, if only I liked any of Siekos styling.


I see the Spring Drive a lot like Japanese whiskey. Sure, it is not a Scotch, but it is a hell of a drink! If I am going to choose any whiskey it will be a single malt Isla Scotch. It is pure, governed by clear rules, single barrel left up to a person to decide its quality, and only from Scotland. But the Japanese make a hell of a “scotch”. It just does not follow the rules, is not made in Isla, they are usually blended, and probably use computers to figure out the taste.
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Old 6 January 2018, 11:36 PM   #60
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I like what I like and that's enough for me. You get snobs in all walks of life, you just have to ignore them.
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