Submariner Flat Four 50th Anniversary

[EvEr34]

Originally Posted by Trimmy

Hi
Below are some further images I have taken of the Submariner Flat 4 you commented on yesterday regarding the authenticity, the Rolex dealer from where purchased has offered for the watch to be sent back to Rolex for them to verify that this is an mk 1 original and not a fake as I believe it to be with the provenance around the watch.

Why would AD doubt of the authenticity of the dial if you purchased the watch from them new. If it ends up being a fake dial how could that happen if the watch was indeed new. Could it be lack of quality control? Sure it could be but I doubt it as there are to many things wrong with it. So then the only other possible explanation would be that someone at the AD switch out the dial for a fake one!? Doubt that also.

I'm not implying that your watch is fake but there is not much sense in all of this if the watch was purchased brand new as you stated.

Anyways can't wait to see what the outcome is.



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[Trimmy]

Thanks.

I realise that it is my mistake that l have not noticed this sooner, but that cannot be changed now and l will see how this plays out from here.

Thankfully checking l have other models in my collection that Rolex got right !

[Trimmy]

Originally Posted by EvEr34

Why would AD doubt of the authenticity of the dial if you purchased the watch from them new. If it ends up being a fake dial how could that happen if the watch was indeed new. Could it be lack of quality control? Sure it could be but I doubt it as there are to many things wrong with it. So then the only other possible explanation would be that someone at the AD switch out the dial for a fake one!? Doubt that also.

I'm not implying that your watch is fake but there is not much sense in all of this if the watch was purchased brand new as you stated.

Anyways can't wait to see what the outcome is.



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Thanks, I somehow think that l will be left with a watch that is genuine and unique, but with very little value. At least the original purchase price of 2.6k back in the day makes that a little easier.... life goes on !

[VicLeChic]

Did you happen to lend the watch to someone in the course of these 13 years? Or perhaps took it to an AD to have the bracelet sized, fixed, a scratched crystal replaced or anything that would make you lose sight of it for a few hours? I've got the feeling someone has tampered with your watch without your knowing. Otherwise you would have noticed the many misalignments on your dial at the beginning. It's one of the first things you'd notice. I could be wrong but that's my gut feeling.

Anyway if Rolex offer to replace the dial with one of the latest versions and mention the dial swap on the service receipt, I'd be happy with that.

If they say your dial is not a fake , I'd still have it replaced but would ask to keep the original wonky dial so that you have a great story to tell a potential buyer / collector of you were to part with it one day.

[Trimmy]

Originally Posted by EvEr34

Why would AD doubt of the authenticity of the dial if you purchased the watch from them new. If it ends up being a fake dial how could that happen if the watch was indeed new. Could it be lack of quality control? Sure it could be but I doubt it as there are to many things wrong with it. So then the only other possible explanation would be that someone at the AD switch out the dial for a fake one!? Doubt that also.

I'm not implying that your watch is fake but there is not much sense in all of this if the watch was purchased brand new as you stated.

Anyways can't wait to see what the outcome is.



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Thanks, neither can I.

If a AD of long standing can be brought into question, as you suggest, then there is a more mayor issue than l realised.

[Trimmy]

Originally Posted by VicLeChic

Did you happen to lend the watch to someone in the course of these 13 years? Or perhaps took it to an AD to have the bracelet sized, fixed, a scratched crystal replaced or anything that would make you lose sight of it for a few hours? I've got the feeling someone has tampered with your watch without your knowing. Otherwise you would have noticed the many misalignments on your dial at the beginning. It's one of the first things you'd notice. I could be wrong but that's my gut feeling.

Anyway if Rolex offer to replace the dial with one of the latest versions and mention the dial swap on the service receipt, I'd be happy with that.

If they say your dial is not a fake , I'd still have it replaced but would ask to keep the original wonky dial so that you have a great story to tell a potential buyer / collector of you were to part with it one day.

Hi

The watch has been in my personnel collection since the day I purchased it from new.

It has only been out of its box around a dozen times since then, never having been serviced or returned for any other works.

As l have mentioned to others l have no choice but to let this play itself out.

[DavidUK]

Do NOT be on your back foot about this just because you have no legitimate legal right to anything other than the watch as it is. DO NOT let Rolex change the dial out if you (as I) think this will result in a low value frankenwatch. Tell them tomorrow NOT to do this without prior discussion.

If I were you, I'd be pressing for a new replacement and if this model isn't available, another watch of a similar value to what your watch would be worth now OR what it cost new, whichever the higher.

Be perfectly pleasant. Ask how they would feel if this were their watch. Explain you weren't a Rolex expert when you bought it and so didn't notice. Why would you? You expected your Rolex purchase to be of the highest standard. They have let YOU down.

Don't give in. DO NOT accept what they offer without saying "let me think about it" and then sleep on it. I'm just up the A5 from you, so if you need someone to go with you...

[EvEr34]

Originally Posted by Trimmy

Thanks, I somehow think that l will be left with a watch that is genuine and unique, but with very little value. At least the original purchase price of 2.6k back in the day makes that a little easier.... life goes on !

2.6k huh?

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[Britvic]

Originally Posted by VicLeChic

Did you happen to lend the watch to someone in the course of these 13 years? Or perhaps took it to an AD to have the bracelet sized, fixed, a scratched crystal replaced or anything that would make you lose sight of it for a few hours? I've got the feeling someone has tampered with your watch without your knowing. Otherwise you would have noticed the many misalignments on your dial at the beginning. It's one of the first things you'd notice. I could be wrong but that's my gut feeling.

Anyway if Rolex offer to replace the dial with one of the latest versions and mention the dial swap on the service receipt, I'd be happy with that.

If they say your dial is not a fake , I'd still have it replaced but would ask to keep the original wonky dial so that you have a great story to tell a potential buyer / collector of you were to part with it one day.

Hi, will AD in UK be that crafty ??

[autumnwind]

Really interesting thread, and I don't mean that at OPs expense with this faulty dial. But seriously never quite heard of Rolex letting something like that slip through their QC processes. I'd be so bummed out as OP.

Maybe I need to start re examining my entire collection with a loupe now !

And please share the outcome. Think everyone is dying to know what Rolex says after they have evaluated it.


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[springer]

Originally Posted by Trimmy

Thanks for this.

I have no doubt that's it authentic as it was purchased from the main Rolex Dealer in Northampton who l have purchased other Rolex models from over the years. What, on discovering this, is how it ever passed Rolex QC.

If Rolex and the Dealer didn't pick it up, then l don't feel so bad about myself not doing so.

At least l now know it's different in its own peculiar way and for that reason it makes it special to me when l look at it in the future.

Yes l suppose

I can just hear the quality control guys, back during 2004, packing up anniversary Subs and shipping them to dealers - when one guy stops his packing and looks up at the other and says, " hey, this dial here is defective - I noticed the markers are off-center. The other guy stops what he is doing and looks up and tells the first guy, "don't worry, it will be 12 or 13 years before anyone notices a thing."

[Trimmy]

Appreciate that advice David.

Will let you know how things play out.

[Trimmy]

Originally Posted by DavidUK

Do NOT be on your back foot about this just because you have no legitimate legal right to anything other than the watch as it is. DO NOT let Rolex change the dial out if you (as I) think this will result in a low value frankenwatch. Tell them tomorrow NOT to do this without prior discussion.

If I were you, I'd be pressing for a new replacement and if this model isn't available, another watch of a similar value to what your watch would be worth now OR what it cost new, whichever the higher.

Be perfectly pleasant. Ask how they would feel if this were their watch. Explain you weren't a Rolex expert when you bought it and so didn't notice. Why would you? You expected your Rolex purchase to be of the highest standard. They have let YOU down.

Don't give in. DO NOT accept what they offer without saying "let me think about it" and then sleep on it. I'm just up the A5 from you, so if you need someone to go with you...

Appreciate that advice David.
Will let you know how things play out.

[Trimmy]

Originally Posted by springer

I can just hear the quality control guys, back during 2004, packing up anniversary Subs and shipping them to dealers - when one guy stops his packing and looks up at the other and says, " hey, this dial here is defective - I noticed the markers are off-center. The other guy stops what he is doing and looks up and tells the first guy, "don't worry, it will be 12 or 13 years before anyone notices a thing."

Hi,
And your point is ?

Like some other posts the point being missed is that there has been human error involved including myself. Just because this is a Rolex that does not mean that does not apply in this instance. Perfection without faults does not exist.....

I think for now it is best left until l have received any offer from AD and Rolex.

[loupe]

Same configuration as mine, round O with flat 4.
The 5 on your insert seems to be longer oh,and your dial is lopsided!
Mine is also 2004.

[Glidelock]

I'm banking on this being all genuine with an error dial. Irregardless of what others opinions are, if you have a flat four anniversary Sub, with an authentic error dial and a letter from Rolex themselves stating it's an authentic dial...it will someday command more from a serious collector!

[Devildog]

Originally Posted by loupe

Same configuration as mine, round O with flat 4.
The 5 on your insert seems to be longer oh,and your dial is lopsided!
Mine is also 2004.

Just goes to show that you can never totally rely on web based resources to confirm anything.

Clearly there were different dial styles in issue at the same time and with Rolex nothing is certain.

[DavidUK]

Originally Posted by Glidelock

I'm banking on this being all genuine with an error dial. Irregardless of what others opinions are, if you have a flat four anniversary Sub, with an authentic error dial and a letter from Rolex themselves stating it's an authentic dial...it will someday command more from a serious collector!

I recall many years ago the fever about some Royal Mail stamps which had been printed without the Queen's head on them. They were then extremely valuable to collectors.

I'm just struggling to see the same with a Rolex, not sure why. I guess it's partly because the OP may wish to wear it, and might feel awkward, and that I haven't heard of any other "error" Rolexes. Has anyone?

Could this one-offness make this THE most valuable Rolex of all time? The one that slipped through the QC net? Roll over Paul Newman's Daytona...!!

[Trimmy]

Originally Posted by Devildog

Just goes to show that you can never totally rely on web based resources to confirm anything.

Clearly there were different dial styles in issue at the same time and with Rolex nothing is certain.

Hi

Thank you for this, very, very helpful and now makes me firmer in my belief that this simply one that has slipped through the net with a slightly wonky dial.

I have checked you comment regarding the 5 and far as l can see with my small magnifying glass they are both identical.

[loupe]

Originally Posted by Trimmy

Hi

Thank you for this, very, very helpful and now makes me firmer in my belief that this simply one that has slipped through the net with a slightly wonky dial.

I have checked you comment regarding the 5 and far as l can see with my small magnifying glass they are both identical.

No probs. It took me a while to find a dial with the same configuration as mine and a flat 4 but they are out there.
I couldn’t see clearly from your pic but on a second look the 5 does look the same, there are slight differences with long/short 5’s on some bezels.
I’d leave it as is, these error dials are quirky and you would no doubt get a standard service replacement dial which wouldn’t be in keeping with your watch.

[frankoman]

After spending a few months searching for the perfect LV set, this post reminds me of what I found available out there. True it seems the most sought after LVs are Y/F serial, Mark I, Oval O, 5 ticks, flat/fat four, etc. But there are many anomalies out there it seems.

This is a NOS F3 full set that was for sale by a very reputable dealer in Germany. Same configuration as the OP's but the dial is not flawed.

I have also seen many Y serial full sets that have oval Os but 3 tick configurations.

[frankoman]

1

[Trimmy]

Originally Posted by Devildog

Just goes to show that you can never totally rely on web based resources to confirm anything.

Clearly there were different dial styles in issue at the same time and with Rolex nothing is certain.

Hi

Although l have a collection of Rolexs until l noticed the QC mistake in my dial l had never entered any Rolex forums.

I have been fascinated by the response l have had. Generally it has been all good and very helpful, with the odd poke at my inability of not spotting the fault sooner, which l get.

What has also been interesting, is that until I received your post and that from loupe I was beginning to think that maybe l am wrong, even with all the paperwork and having purchased the watch from a top AD. because members out there where in no doubt that my watch 2004 F serial must have five ticks and the oval O in Rolex. This has now been proven to be inaccurate, thankfully, but great information for future assistance with other members problems.

In conclusion and with the latest information I have decided that once l have received a letter of authenticity from Rolex I will leave the watch as it is, for good, or for bad, it is unique as far as l am aware ? which makes it special for me.

Thanks out there for all your help, could not have reached my intended way forward without it !

[loupe]

I'm going to throw it out there and say that this configuration is the rarest. I've seen dozens of Mk1's but just a handful of these. I thought it was maybe only for the US market but have seen 3 (which includes this latest one on the post above) from Europe.
I was called out before for having a Franken watch but slowly these are emerging.
Same old story, anything is possible.

[dcash0615]

What I have learned from this thread is that we have what appear to be Mark 5 dials appearing on early F serial LV's. This has not been mentioned to my knowledge on any charts, which are just estimations from watch enthusiasts through data gathering from the internet, etc. As new discoveries are realized these charts are then updated again to be used as future reference points. But in no way are they to be used to guarantee authenticity of a watch.

[loupe]

It also comes with a round O flat 4 and five ticks as shown in this 2003 brochure.

[sensui]

Originally Posted by dcash0615

What I have learned from this thread is that we have what appear to be Mark 5 dials appearing on early F serial LV's. This has not been mentioned to my knowledge on any charts, which are just estimations from watch enthusiasts through data gathering from the internet, etc. As new discoveries are realized these charts are then updated again to be used as future reference points. But in no way are they to be used to guarantee authenticity of a watch.

Awfully a lot of data points like you said. Anything is possible but i find it funny it's the mk5 variant appearing...when the bulk of these were much later in late 2005. Sorry to the people owning these "rare" examples but you'd have no way to prove this dial was originally to the watch...I've seen questionable things collecting vintage Rolex all the time in terms of originality/period correctness and is always contested from naysayers on both sides. I think one needs to do their own research and draw their own conclusions. No one but Rolex knows the truth and all we have are data points contributed by enthusiasts.

[Trimmy]

Originally Posted by loupe

It also comes with a round O flat 4 and five ticks as shown in this 2003 brochure.

I take your point, but surely the recent photos posted and original Rolex sales brochure images are conclusive evidence that there were other variants around during the MK 1 period.

I can only repeat as l have said throughout that l purchased this watch from new. It has never been returned to any dealer for work and the original hologram label is still present on the back ( not posted )

If l receive a letter of authenticity from Rolex, then again, surely this in its self is acceptance of the new information that has come forward during the last few days.

[Passionata]

Originally Posted by Trimmy

I take your point, but surely the recent photos posted and original Rolex sales brochure images are conclusive evidence that there were other variants around during the MK 1 period.

I can only repeat as l have said throughout that l purchased this watch from new. It has never been returned to any dealer for work and the original hologram label is still present on the back ( not posted )

If l receive a letter of authenticity from Rolex, then again, surely this in its self is acceptance of the new information that has come forward during the last few days.

It s a very interesting thread please keep us updated!

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by loupe

It also comes with a round O flat 4 and five ticks as shown in this 2003 brochure.

This is probably as conclusive as it gets. Great thread