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Old 6 April 2020, 03:15 AM   #5341
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while all that is reasonable, and I needed to look at my own progression to confirm, I do not agree. again, only because I am in that camp, and what you write is, again while reasonable, and over simplification and a generalization.

I can only state this as I can only speak for myself. I learned from what you wrote, I hope you can see what I write.

first, I never thought it was a hoax. I was probably one of the first people out there preparing. The ladies at my supermarket thought I was nuts. I was alone and the only person buying a full cart of nonperishables. My accountant just called me up and said, well you were right, this was way bigger than we all thought it would be. I have had multiple conversations with people where they reminded me that I told them to get prepared.

I am also still not convinced this is actually worse than a flu (please keep listening). I do agree that this is horrible and it clearly faster than the flu. But it also appears that while the flu is seasonal and apparently continues on forever, this might be something that targets the weak and moves on.

This virus is deadly, to be certain. However, given how incredibly contagious this is, it is reasonable to think it might be deadly to a select few and the masses are mostly safe. I am relatively convinced that I had this. I am pretty convinced that most people I know had this. Given that I am from NJ and the examples of how fast this spreads in a room or on a boat, it is reasonable to assume that just about everyone I know has come in contact with this in someway.

So yes, I agree this is no flu. But the flu is responsible for much sickness and much death. It is different. I am not saying Corona is a bad flu, on that I have learned better. However, while different, I am still not certain this is as bad as they make it out to be.

My biggest concern with how bad this is, is not that people are dying. It is how it is overwhelming the health care system.

I still believe that we did handle this all wrong. I still believe that there is a better way.

Many might not agree with the risks or even the losses that I am willing to take or the viewpoint I have. But I said from the beginning of this thread that Thanos had a point.

We are a plague on this planet. And this might very well be the planet culling the herd. This might very well be Mother Nature protecting herself.

I have also been saying from the beginning that I think we are going about it all wrong.

I am a team player. I will do my part and if this is the path we are taking, then I am most certainly will to everything I can...even if that is sitting at home .

And please don't misunderstand me. I am very afraid of this. I am sad about all the deaths and the sickness. I am terrified of how this will effect the ones I care about.

But life is hard and it is not fair.

so while I very much get what you are saying, and it is reasonable for you to make that connection, I also do not think it is a fair or accurate assessment. Again, only because of my own personal experience. But clearly, I fall into the camp of people you are talking to, so I figured I would respond with my own personal thoughts.

And what Blansky is saying is fair. We learn from people with different viewpoints.

I wish you and all yours safety and health through all of this.

Well said Seth and I agree!

I would like to say great minds think alike but I don’t qualify.
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Old 6 April 2020, 03:29 AM   #5342
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the Coronavirus outbreak thread

It should be required that every front line medical doctor in the country take 5 mins to write a message to the local community giving their take on how to proceed and then all of those should be posted on the front page of their respective local newspapers for a week straight.
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Old 6 April 2020, 03:31 AM   #5343
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I'm not certain on the threat level of the virus itself, I think the reaction of the public and the world at large has been nothing short of hysterical on every level. I'm not sure anything in this world is this bad that each nation has reacted to it to the level that they have.
I think seeing the healthcare systems of entire countries and major cities overwhelmed by death and critical illness has something to do with a feeling in the world that this is bad. Makeshift hospitals set up in arenas and parks. Refrigerated trucks parked next to hospitals for body storage. Funeral directors overwhelmed with the dead. Healthcare workers dying of the disease they fight. As a lifelong healthcare worker, yes, these things have me extremely concerned. Have I seen hysteria? Not yet. But I think we will.

I frequently wonder as I navigate this thread, what exactly WOULD qualify as bad to many of the posters here?
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Old 6 April 2020, 03:44 AM   #5344
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I'm not singling your post out as there are many on this thread who share your opinion..

So, the issue is that even non "high risk" individuals will need medical treatment. Quite a few of those in ICU aren't high risk at all. By going back to normal, health care workers are exposed to more cases than they would be by having limitations. This means more personal risk to them, which can be lethal. Why would they want to work under that duress, especially when they are understaffed and don't have enough PPE.

Is that fair to them?

You get to go to a rock concert with 20,000 other people and they get to deal with the illness that propagates afterwards? Virus is still out there and it loves gatherings of people. It's clear that in the weeks following big gatherings, the medical system in the vicinity gets hammered.

So, here is, potentially, a way through this.

There is a waiver attached to a drivers license or other State ID, identifying a person as a "free participant", meaning they can do whatever they want to...but if they test positive for COVID-19 there will be no medical treatment available through the hospital system. The healthcare workers won't be exposed to huge caseloads due to people's decisions. If you want to go out, then go. Get sick?..it's on you.

On the flip side, if you don't sign the waiver, then you must shelter in place with the exception of grocery store runs and doctor / pharmacy. That's pretty much it.

NO restaurants, bars, churches, concerts, No shopping. No flying around. ..etc. Scanning the ID card will either let people in who have agreed to the terms or deny entry to those who don't.

If these individuals test positive, then they can get treatment.

Then when the cases drop out due to herd immunity or a vaccine...the waiver program stops.
Darwinism at it's best. But unfortunately I don't think you would legally be able to withhold medical tx even if they signed a document.
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Old 6 April 2020, 03:49 AM   #5345
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I frequently wonder as I navigate this thread, what exactly WOULD qualify as bad to many of the posters here?
I think the death of a loved one due to Covid will make people sit up and take this seriously. It sucks that it has to happen for people to wake up, but for some people seeing is believing.

Stay safe
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Old 6 April 2020, 03:50 AM   #5346
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OK, call me a Dorklehead, but someone please explain something. I have one more topic I need clarification on. This is from a personal experience the other day. I was walking (not much else to do so put in almost ten miles) and two people were approaching me from the other direction. They walked out in to the bike lane of the street, perfectly understandable, then both stopped and hurriedly put cloth masks on (looks like they were going to rob a bank) and wound them tight. They backed up so far in to the street a car actually screeched and honked, but they didn’t move. Neither did I, this was interesting but I won’t go on with the incident.

My question is a standard Home-Depot cloth or paper masks. JoeyChitwood and other medical professionals/scientists correct me if I am wrong.

1. A virus is microscopic, therefore will NOT be filtered out by a standard paper, or cloth mask designed to keep out particles like sawdust. It will go through as if nothing were there.


2. If a person is infected, the mask will NOT keep a virus from being expelled the opposite way either. It might keep particles from exiting the person’s area, but a virus will not be filtered.

3. A mask DOES protect you in the following way: It keeps you from picking your nose or putting your hand in your mouth (I usually use my foot ). If you have the virus on your hands for example, it will not gain access to your body through your mouth or nose.

So, my assumption: Masks are USELESS in protecting yourself from acquiring the virus through your mouth and nose from inhalation, it ONLY assists in that it keeps you from picking your nose or sticking your finger in your mouth.

The only fact that I know of that would prove my assumption wrong is if a virus molecule HAS to adhere to a physical particle to ... exist(?). And, please understand I am talking about standard pieces of cloth or masks used in wood cutting and dry-wall work, NOT a medical grade, the N-95 or whatever.

So, I have opened myself up here, if I am way wrong with these facts/assumptions, then someone WITH THE PROFESSIONAL KNOWLEDGE tell me so, and I will admit to being wrong.

My point is besides people acting stupid, a paper mask is giving them a false sense of security, that a $.30 Home Depot dust mask will stop the virus from being inhaled and they are 100% protected, I don’t believe this is true at all and on the contrary is quite ludicrous.

But, I put my assumptions out there for abuse, if I am wrong, some qualified person please tell me exactly what points and I bow to your knowledge. I have opened the door for your slings and arrows.
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Old 6 April 2020, 03:50 AM   #5347
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Darwinism at it's best. But unfortunately I don't think you would legally be able to withhold medical tx even if they signed a document.
We do it all the time. they are called Advanced Medical Directives and most states allow them to specifically decline advanced life saving treatments such as mechanical ventilation. The only problem is medical staff need to have it in hand or on file before initiating care and that rarely happens in emergency situations.
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Old 6 April 2020, 03:56 AM   #5348
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I think the death of a loved one due to Covid will make people sit up and take this seriously. It sucks that it has to happen for people to wake up, but for some people seeing is believing.

Stay safe
disagree. it would not change my opinion one bit. it would hurt terribly. but it would not change my opinion.

bad is not 5% of our population dying. to a certain degree 5% is likely very good for the world.

bad is 25% of the population dying.

bad is the entire wolds economy coming to a halt causing mass rioting, poverty, hunger and therefore more disease and death.
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Old 6 April 2020, 03:58 AM   #5349
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As a professional in my own head, I will say that while a virus is microscopic, the droplets it travels in is not. A mask of some sort would protect you should someone spit at you while they’re talking etc... Also it’s a barrier against you touching your face if your hands have something suspect on them.
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Old 6 April 2020, 03:59 AM   #5350
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Simply wow.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:00 AM   #5351
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Simply wow.
agree.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:02 AM   #5352
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As a professional in my own head, I will say that while a virus is microscopic, the droplets it travels in is not. A mask of some sort would protect you should someone spit at you while they’re talking etc... Also it’s a barrier against you touching your face if your hands have something suspect on them.
Completely agree Anthony, but if the paper mask stops the particle, does it also stop the virus? I don’t think so. But, us professionals in our own heads need to listen to the experts.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:03 AM   #5353
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the Coronavirus outbreak thread

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Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy View Post
I was walking (not much else to do so put in almost ten miles) and two people were approaching me from the other direction. They walked out in to the bike lane of the street, perfectly understandable, then both stopped and hurriedly put cloth masks on (looks like they were going to rob a bank) and wound them tight. They backed up so far in to the street a car actually screeched and honked, but they didn’t move. Neither did I, this was interesting but I won’t go on with the incident.

Were you by any chance wearing that 3-D printed Covid mask of yours?





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Old 6 April 2020, 04:05 AM   #5354
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We’re by any chance wearing that 3-D Covid mask of yours?





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Old 6 April 2020, 04:05 AM   #5355
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agree.
I was actually referring to your statement that 16,000,000 (in words: sixteen million) dying in the US alone is not bad, but likely very good for the world. Makes my head spin Or am I misunderstanding, then please excuse.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:06 AM   #5356
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disagree. it would not change my opinion one bit. it would hurt terribly. but it would not change my opinion.

bad is not 5% of our population dying. to a certain degree 5% is likely very good for the world.

bad is 25% of the population dying.

bad is the entire wolds economy coming to a halt causing mass rioting, poverty, hunger and therefore more disease and death.
I agree with you. Perspective is the key.
If a loved one dies then one death is bad.
If we look at this from our own nation's perspective then 5% is bad.
If we look at it from the world's perspective then 10% would be bad.
If we look at it from our lifetime's perspective then 20% would be bad.
How about if we look at it from the perspective of history? In a thousand years will 20% of the current world's population matter to anyone or anything? No.
This isn't going to be the end of the world or the end of civilisation as we know it but it will be "bad" for a lot of people. Looking at it from the perspective of the Earth or history - I agree with you: a case could be made for saying 50% wouldn't be bad for our planet as humans aren't a great species.
Selfishly though, we're all thinking of the here and now.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:08 AM   #5357
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Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy View Post
OK, call me a Dorklehead, but someone please explain something. I have one more topic I need clarification on. This is from a personal experience the other day. I was walking (not much else to do so put in almost ten miles) and two people were approaching me from the other direction. They walked out in to the bike lane of the street, perfectly understandable, then both stopped and hurriedly put cloth masks on (looks like they were going to rob a bank) and wound them tight. They backed up so far in to the street a car actually screeched and honked, but they didn’t move. Neither did I, this was interesting but I won’t go on with the incident.

My question is a standard Home-Depot cloth or paper masks. JoeyChitwood and other medical professionals/scientists correct me if I am wrong.

1. A virus is microscopic, therefore will NOT be filtered out by a standard paper, or cloth mask designed to keep out particles like sawdust. It will go through as if nothing were there.


2. If a person is infected, the mask will NOT keep a virus from being expelled the opposite way either. It might keep particles from exiting the person’s area, but a virus will not be filtered.

3. A mask DOES protect you in the following way: It keeps you from picking your nose or putting your hand in your mouth (I usually use my foot ). If you have the virus on your hands for example, it will not gain access to your body through your mouth or nose.

So, my assumption: Masks are USELESS in protecting yourself from acquiring the virus through your mouth and nose from inhalation, it ONLY assists in that it keeps you from picking your nose or sticking your finger in your mouth.

The only fact that I know of that would prove my assumption wrong is if a virus molecule HAS to adhere to a physical particle to ... exist(?). And, please understand I am talking about standard pieces of cloth or masks used in wood cutting and dry-wall work, NOT a medical grade, the N-95 or whatever.

So, I have opened myself up here, if I am way wrong with these facts/assumptions, then someone WITH THE PROFESSIONAL KNOWLEDGE tell me so, and I will admit to being wrong.

My point is besides people acting stupid, a paper mask is giving them a false sense of security, that a $.30 Home Depot dust mask will stop the virus from being inhaled and they are 100% protected, I don’t believe this is true at all and on the contrary is quite ludicrous.

But, I put my assumptions out there for abuse, if I am wrong, some qualified person please tell me exactly what points and I bow to your knowledge. I have opened the door for your slings and arrows.
Masks will reduce the amount of virus you intake, even if they aren't medical grade.

That can mean the difference between mild disease and being on a ventilator.

Wear a mask.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:08 AM   #5358
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I think seeing the healthcare systems of entire countries and major cities overwhelmed by death and critical illness has something to do with a feeling in the world that this is bad. Makeshift hospitals set up in arenas and parks. Refrigerated trucks parked next to hospitals for body storage. Funeral directors overwhelmed with the dead. Healthcare workers dying of the disease they fight. As a lifelong healthcare worker, yes, these things have me extremely concerned. Have I seen hysteria? Not yet. But I think we will.

I frequently wonder as I navigate this thread, what exactly WOULD qualify as bad to many of the posters here?
If anything, this pandemic has shown that people are going to believe what they are going to believe regardless of the information available. People will see what you wrote above and say it’s not where I live so why should I change how I live. Or they will find some other information to counter it.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:11 AM   #5359
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I frequently wonder as I navigate this thread, what exactly WOULD qualify as bad to many of the posters here?
I don't think anyone thinks that the deaths and the ones to come are not tragic.

But this is a pandemic and there will be thousands of deaths as a matter of reality. Where the differences of opinion come in is how we manage death vs economic chaos.

And we haven't had that many deaths YET and no real economic chaos YET. But we will.

You are exactly right about leveling the curve as you stated from the beginning, and that is happening to some extent as hospitals and science ramps up the supplies and research.

But the bottom line still is, without a vaccine, WHEN do we open the doors? And how bad will it be.

Everyone wants the same outcome. Wind us back 6 months. But that isn't gonna happen so how do we handle and manage our new reality.

Listening to my wife talk to her corporate peeps and the messaging from corporate, and the general atmosphere makes me think that the public seems to think that when the restrictions get released in the next month or two or three, that then we are back to normal.

It's astounding the denial. When the restrictions are released we are then in the eye of the hurricane. Then IT ALL STARTS for real.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:13 AM   #5360
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Masks will reduce the amount of virus you intake, even if they aren't medical grade.

That can mean the difference between mild disease and being on a ventilator.

Wear a mask.
How? How do they reduce the AMOUNT of virus you intake if a mask will NOT stop a microscopic molecule (a Virus).

It’s a very fair question.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:14 AM   #5361
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the Coronavirus outbreak thread

11 13 10
Almost 10 years ago...at High Noon.

Something happened...something that by today’s novel standards we can only hope will be possible on 11 13 20...

I’m only sharing this in the spirit of fueling the focus-forward region of your ventrolateral frontal cortex. And telescope your forward thinking horizon beyond April’s Apex. Handel had it right...looking forward to a better November.


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Old 6 April 2020, 04:15 AM   #5362
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How? How do they reduce the AMOUNT of virus you intake if a mask will NOT stop a microscopic molecule (a Virus).

It’s a very fair question.
Isn't it because the microscopic molecule lives within a bigger glob of snot which a mask would stop?
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:18 AM   #5363
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How? How do they reduce the AMOUNT of virus you intake if a mask will NOT stop a microscopic molecule (a Virus).

It’s a very fair question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w9M6K9vSUM

14:00 minutes in.

You can watch the whole thing...it's very enlightening.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:21 AM   #5364
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The reality

Been looking at all the comments in this thread.

On a watch forum.

It never happens to you, or me, Or our family.

Hang on...

It does. Dying from Covid 19 is like sudden loss. Where the spouse etc doesn't get chance to say goodbye.

That happened to me, my wife was killed by a horse. Four years in and its just one sweep of a second hand going by...
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:22 AM   #5365
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Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy View Post
OK, call me a Dorklehead, but someone please explain something. I have one more topic I need clarification on. This is from a personal experience the other day. I was walking (not much else to do so put in almost ten miles) and two people were approaching me from the other direction. They walked out in to the bike lane of the street, perfectly understandable, then both stopped and hurriedly put cloth masks on (looks like they were going to rob a bank) and wound them tight. They backed up so far in to the street a car actually screeched and honked, but they didn’t move. Neither did I, this was interesting but I won’t go on with the incident.

My question is a standard Home-Depot cloth or paper masks. JoeyChitwood and other medical professionals/scientists correct me if I am wrong.

1. A virus is microscopic, therefore will NOT be filtered out by a standard paper, or cloth mask designed to keep out particles like sawdust. It will go through as if nothing were there.


2. If a person is infected, the mask will NOT keep a virus from being expelled the opposite way either. It might keep particles from exiting the person’s area, but a virus will not be filtered.

3. A mask DOES protect you in the following way: It keeps you from picking your nose or putting your hand in your mouth (I usually use my foot ). If you have the virus on your hands for example, it will not gain access to your body through your mouth or nose.

So, my assumption: Masks are USELESS in protecting yourself from acquiring the virus through your mouth and nose from inhalation, it ONLY assists in that it keeps you from picking your nose or sticking your finger in your mouth.

The only fact that I know of that would prove my assumption wrong is if a virus molecule HAS to adhere to a physical particle to ... exist(?). And, please understand I am talking about standard pieces of cloth or masks used in wood cutting and dry-wall work, NOT a medical grade, the N-95 or whatever.

So, I have opened myself up here, if I am way wrong with these facts/assumptions, then someone WITH THE PROFESSIONAL KNOWLEDGE tell me so, and I will admit to being wrong.

My point is besides people acting stupid, a paper mask is giving them a false sense of security, that a $.30 Home Depot dust mask will stop the virus from being inhaled and they are 100% protected, I don’t believe this is true at all and on the contrary is quite ludicrous.

But, I put my assumptions out there for abuse, if I am wrong, some qualified person please tell me exactly what points and I bow to your knowledge. I have opened the door for your slings and arrows.
Some notes from a manufacturer of N95

“Particles fly into and get stuck in the maze of sticks (fabric). Additionally, An electrostatic charge has been added to the masks to pull smaller particles towards the fibers.”
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:24 AM   #5366
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How? How do they reduce the AMOUNT of virus you intake if a mask will NOT stop a microscopic molecule (a Virus).

It’s a very fair question.
It reduces this from escaping into the atmosphere. Not all of the virus particles, but the majority.


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Old 6 April 2020, 04:25 AM   #5367
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I was actually referring to your statement that 16,000,000 (in words: sixteen million) dying in the US alone is not bad, but likely very good for the world. Makes my head spin Or am I misunderstanding, then please excuse.
I knew what you were referring to.

This is all about perspective. And the amount of people dying I think is horrendous and it breaks my heart.

But I believe I am thinking bigger picture than you are. My perspective. Please don't take offense as none is intended.

What happens when we burn through all of our natural resources? What happens we completely pollute our oceans? What happens when we completely demolish all the rain forests?

I can ask these questions all day. There are a ton of them.

I am of the mindset in that we (as a species) feel it is our responsibility and even our "right" to procreate and consume whatever it is we want.

We are destroying the natural habitats of thousands of species. We are creating smog over many cities. We are consuming more animals at a faster rate than they can possibly reproduce.

If something does not change, something WILL change eventually.

I am not happy about any of this situation. I cant express enough how much I think it is horrifying. It breaks my heart. I am right outside the epicenter. I am seeing it all and I am directly effect...as everyone eventually will be.

But our species is a plagues in and of itself. All we do is consume with no thought to what our actions do. As long as we are taking care of ourselves right? Who cares about world or the animals or the fish or the trees of the world, right?

As long as we can do whatever we want do to, we simply don't care about the repercussions. That is an absolute fact. You simply cant dispute it. As a species we just don't care about our actions and the repercussions of them as long as we get what we want.

We are caring now though right? Less people means less destruction (of everything) and therefore means a longer platform for the species.

Sorry. But when you look at the bigger picture of literally everyone dying due to zero resources, yes, based on a certain perspective 16,000,000 is not that bad.

Horrifying on the small scale. Less so in the bigger picture.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:27 AM   #5368
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We do it all the time. they are called Advanced Medical Directives and most states allow them to specifically decline advanced life saving treatments such as mechanical ventilation. The only problem is medical staff need to have it in hand or on file before initiating care and that rarely happens in emergency situations.
I would link the free participant / no treat Covid-19 waiver to the State ID, like an organ donor. So it would be linked like that.

It would have to very strictly enforced.

No Covid-19 Treatment means just that. In exchange for freedom of participation, there are no medical options for that individual presenting with the virus. 100% NO. Just mortuary arrangements if the need unfortunately arose.

But, just as strict is the stay at home for the people who opt to out of stay @ home. No messing about. There will be penalties for violations.

As dystopian as this all sounds, It would be interesting to see how it would work...
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:30 AM   #5369
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w9M6K9vSUM

14:00 minutes in.

You can watch the whole thing...it's very enlightening.
This was very interesting. From what I understand, it reduces the amount of particles in the air, so an infected person expels less particles the virus is attached to, makes complete sense. The other point is that it keeps you from scratching your face, which I also accept. Your point about having the virus enter your system in a small number so the body can prepare a defense instead of being an onslaught also makes perfect sense; less particles with the virus enter so less virus enters. So a mask may help in the over-all solution, But...

The assumption that an individual person wearing a paper or cloth mask will filter out the virus and keep it from entering their body through inhalation of the nose or mouth is still wrong. That is my point.

Doctors? Scientists? I am at your beck and call for a flogging.
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Old 6 April 2020, 04:32 AM   #5370
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Some notes from a manufacturer of N95

“Particles fly into and get stuck in the maze of sticks (fabric). Additionally, An electrostatic charge has been added to the masks to pull smaller particles towards the fibers.”
Agreed Gus, those N95, or 99, or Pie R squared masks DEFINITELY offer a measure of protection, I am more referring to people that purchase a home-depot mask designed to filter out sawdust and believe this will protect them from inhaling a virus, just can’t be true.
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