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Old 8 November 2019, 06:47 AM   #1
TimeLord2
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GENEVA AUCTION 9 NOVEMBER 2019 - Tiffany stamp

Curious what the forum thinks of this watch? Apparently there is an auction in Geneva on November 9 specifically dealing with dual brand high-end timepieces. This one has the Tiffany and Co stamp, with no papers or at least none mentioned. I was curious about the ROW stamp on the movement that indicates it was made for the American Market. I'm sure some of you have seen a few of my posts and know I too have a T-stamp on the dial (rootbeer) but no papers or such having inherited it from my Dad. Are any of you familiar with this ROW engraving on the movement? Here's a link, and a few pics FYI. https://www.phillips.com/detail/rolex/CH080319/36
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Old 8 November 2019, 08:16 AM   #2
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Like the piece very much, except the stamp. For this forum that's kind of the consensus. If you don't have the paperwork to support it, then its a detractor.

But that is this forum, and someone will be willing to pay up to 2x for this piece as the estimate suggests...
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Old 8 November 2019, 08:32 AM   #3
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Like the piece very much, except the stamp. For this forum that's kind of the consensus. If you don't have the paperwork to support it, then its a detractor.

But that is this forum, and someone will be willing to pay up to 2x for this piece as the estimate suggests...
I'm familiar with the forum sentiment, and can't fault the reasoning. That said, I thought the ROW stamp was perhaps the interesting part as I have never heard mention of it on this forum. Prudence when buying cautions to always check the movement for authenticity (to a certain point… and no I am not considering purchasing this). Is this one of those indicators you would look for or is the stamp just something the marketing department decided to sensationalize?
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Old 8 November 2019, 08:35 AM   #4
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I'm familiar with the forum sentiment, and can't fault the reasoning. That said, I thought the ROW stamp was perhaps the interesting part as I have never heard mention of it on this forum. Prudence when buying cautions to always check the movement for authenticity (to a certain point… and no I am not considering purchasing this). Is this one of those indicators you would look for or is the stamp just something the marketing department decided to sensationalize?
The ROW is actually quite standard denotation of an imported movement. I think each swiss manufacturer has a 3 letter denomination, Rolex being ROW (think Omega is OXG).
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Old 8 November 2019, 09:17 AM   #5
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The ROW is actually quite standard denotation of an imported movement. I think each swiss manufacturer has a 3 letter denomination, Rolex being ROW (think Omega is OXG).
And different with each brand. That is interesting. Thank you
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Old 8 November 2019, 11:17 AM   #6
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The ROW is actually quite standard denotation of an imported movement. I think each swiss manufacturer has a 3 letter denomination, Rolex being ROW (think Omega is OXG).
Table here: http://www.ranfft.de/uhr/info-uscode-e.html
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Old 8 November 2019, 11:35 AM   #7
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Now that is the full unabridged version! Thanks Dan!
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Old 8 November 2019, 08:52 AM   #8
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Gilt dial with white Tiffany writing.....I’ll pass at double the price
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Old 8 November 2019, 08:53 AM   #9
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Without the provenance, its just an altered dial IMO
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Old 8 November 2019, 10:15 AM   #10
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Plenty of hyperbole in that description.

It always amazes me that they end up with typos in these descriptions. You’d think that when you’re selling something for tens of thousands of dollars, you would catch things like “The date hand presents a small arrow tip.” HQ Milton has these little mistakes all the time also... Maybe it’s just because I’m an editor? Lol!
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Old 8 November 2019, 10:40 AM   #11
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Plenty of hyperbole in that description.

It always amazes me that they end up with typos in these descriptions. You’d think that when you’re selling something for tens of thousands of dollars, you would catch things like “The date hand presents a small arrow tip.” HQ Milton has these little mistakes all the time also... Maybe it’s just because I’m an editor? Lol!
Always love it when you get bitchly Styles!
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Old 9 November 2019, 12:35 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Styles Bitchley View Post
You’d think that when you’re selling something for tens of thousands of dollars, you would catch things like “The date hand presents a small arrow tip.”...Maybe it’s just because I’m an editor? Lol!
"The date hand presents a small arrow tip" is an editor's bread and butter.

Factual error:
The *24-hour* hand presents a small arrow tip.

Weird verb choice:
The 24-hour hand *has* a small arrow tip.

Missing hyphen:
The 24-hour hand has a *small-arrow* tip.

I do a bit of editing, too. Pedants unite!
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Old 8 November 2019, 10:34 AM   #13
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With regard to signed dials: no proof of provenance = no go.
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Old 8 November 2019, 10:58 AM   #14
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I think @Cooper33 provided an answer to the question regarding the ROW engraving on the movement. Thank you all for your comments
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Old 11 November 2019, 11:59 AM   #15
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in case anybody was interested in the final auction price.

Estimate
CHF30,000 - 60,000
€27,600-55,300
$30,200-60,400

SOLD FOR CHF112,500
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Old 11 November 2019, 05:32 PM   #16
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in case anybody was interested in the final auction price.

Estimate
CHF30,000 - 60,000
€27,600-55,300
$30,200-60,400

SOLD FOR CHF112,500
Wow... Didn't see that coming.
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Old 11 November 2019, 04:03 PM   #17
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Am I drunk or did it sell for $112,000 us?????
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Old 11 November 2019, 04:05 PM   #18
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Wow. Just NOPE
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Old 11 November 2019, 06:50 PM   #19
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Interesting that the general opinion on this forum is ‘not worth anything without the paperwork’, however, obviously worth something considering what it sold for.
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Old 11 November 2019, 07:41 PM   #20
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Interesting that the general opinion on this forum is ‘not worth anything without the paperwork’, however, obviously worth something considering what it sold for.
In general that is the case but since it is sold by a big auction house like Phillips they guarantee the authenticity. The watch will never be questioned as long as it doesn’t show up in anyones archives without a Tiffany stamp. :)

Price is somewhat high but a gilt GMT with a dial in that condition would everyday fetch up towards 40-50 at Phillips. Finding a great condition double signed by Tiffany is not crazy to have a 2-3x premium.

I hope the buyer will be happy with his/her new watch.
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Old 11 November 2019, 08:15 PM   #21
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...since it is sold by a big auction house like Phillips they guarantee the authenticity.
Is this the case, or do many / most of the big auction houses carry extensive disclaimers about dial authenticity / restoration / repainting etc?
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Old 11 November 2019, 09:21 PM   #22
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Is this the case, or do many / most of the big auction houses carry extensive disclaimers about dial authenticity / restoration / repainting etc?
Not sure but a sale through a big auction house is considered provenance. My guess would be that if this watch for example comes up like previous Tiffany probs on forums without the print; Phillips would buy the watch back themselves and make it dissapear. It would cost them more if people start doubting their offerings.

Just look at AQ these days.. Most people expect problems with their lots. You would need to know what you are doing before spending your money there.
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Old 11 November 2019, 10:26 PM   #23
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...a sale through a big auction house is considered provenance.
Not by this correspondent, at least !
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Old 12 November 2019, 05:52 AM   #24
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In general that is the case but since it is sold by a big auction house like Phillips they guarantee the authenticity. The watch will never be questioned as long as it doesn’t show up in anyones archives without a Tiffany stamp. :)

.
This is a bit of a contradiction in the collecting world of Tiffany dials. If many of these “Tiffany” dials are not able to be verified as having come from Tiffany without the proper paperwork, the opposite must also be true. Unless the font is terrible, or someone would confirm that Tiffany was added later, they also wouldn’t be able to prove it to be fake. That being the case, an auction house standing behind it should give no additional comfort than anyone else. I wouldn’t have any interest in a Tiffany dial without provenance from Rolex.
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Old 12 November 2019, 06:04 AM   #25
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This is a bit of a contradiction in the collecting world of Tiffany dials. If many of these “Tiffany” dials are not able to be verified as having come from Tiffany without the proper paperwork, the opposite must also be true. Unless the font is terrible, or someone would confirm that Tiffany was added later, they also wouldn’t be able to prove it to be fake. That being the case, an auction house standing behind it should give no additional comfort than anyone else. I wouldn’t have any interest in a Tiffany dial without provenance from Rolex.
Each to their own. I saw this watch and I would happily have bought it if I were hunting one. A similar was for sale from an Italian dealer a year or so ago; I wouldn’t have dared buying that though.

Maybe not logical at all but that is me. Obviously at least two bidders trusted Phillips in this case.
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Old 12 November 2019, 08:53 AM   #26
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Each to their own. I saw this watch and I would happily have bought it if I were hunting one. A similar was for sale from an Italian dealer a year or so ago; I wouldn’t have dared buying that though.

Maybe not logical at all but that is me. Obviously at least two bidders trusted Phillips in this case.
But you are an educated collector who knows that without provenance these Tiffany dials are very suspect. If the auction house has no provenance, why would them brokering the sale give any additional comfort?
I’m honestly curious and just trying to understand the thought. I really think this is a big problem in vintage collectibles of all types. The auction house has no additional resources in verifying that it’s original than a guy on the street corner, or they would have advertised it as having provenance.
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Old 12 November 2019, 04:21 AM   #27
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Yes, I was quite shocked too. BTW, Swiss dollars = Us Dollars. Of course everything went for double and triple the estimate, which I found quite strange too.
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Old 12 November 2019, 10:10 AM   #28
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I think the basic assumption with a high-end auction house is the vetting of the piece by an expert that is for some reason given even more expertise simply by having been employed at one of these houses. Just being sold by Christie's provides a certain exclusivity to what ever is being sold. That said, how much different would it be to send ti to your local watchmaker and have them do an appraisal. Probably not much but there is that element of Je ne sait quoi. Oh, and that last phrase is probably in their marketing literature somewhere…
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Old 12 November 2019, 11:00 AM   #29
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I think the basic assumption with a high-end auction house is the vetting of the piece by an expert that is for some reason given even more expertise simply by having been employed at one of these houses. Just being sold by Christie's provides a certain exclusivity to what ever is being sold. That said, how much different would it be to send ti to your local watchmaker and have them do an appraisal. Probably not much but there is that element of Je ne sait quoi. Oh, and that last phrase is probably in their marketing literature somewhere…
This isn’t my thought as well. People love to payback for reputation. Look at some of the overpriced stuff HODINKEE has sold. People will pay it juts because it’s from them. It’s an object....it is what it is regardless of who sells it. Baffles me, but to each their own.
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Old 12 November 2019, 11:34 AM   #30
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This isn’t my thought as well. People love to payback for reputation. Look at some of the overpriced stuff HODINKEE has sold. People will pay it juts because it’s from them. It’s an object....it is what it is regardless of who sells it. Baffles me, but to each their own.
Yes, I wrote that but I don't subscribe to this thought either. Just commenting on potential reasons for this misguided belief. Can't argue that it doesn't increase value, even if I do find the reason suspect.
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