What differentiates the current state of Rolex vs. Panerai's from 5-7 years ago?

[Vince KSA]

Probably the daftest comment that I've read on here in a while.

Shortsighted at best, just plain ignorant at worst.

Rather than ending the thread, just end your contributions.

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

Everybody knows what a Rolex is,Nobody knows what a Panerai is....End Thread.

[superpop]

Originally Posted by Mystro

3 decade of Rolex ownership and I’ll be brutally honest with my own reality check.
I would say Rolex is making their own mistakes in different ways and they could be far worse for the owner.
I could care less how “desirable” a watch is as that isn’t my motive as a enthusiast to buy so take that away from Rolex and what are we left with??? A wildly overpriced factory watch that can’t be purchased or even handled at a Rolex authorized dealer.
Availability or (lack of) is tolerated for a short period of time but once it goes beyond a short time frame the lack of inventory will push away the enthusiast and the affluent customer that just wants a nice watch to wear. The AD’s have even taken a piece of your integrity suggesting you need to purchase 2 watches you don’t want for the chance to buy one that you do want at full msrp.

So now the Rolex market is left with commodity watch flippers trying to make a quick score at the expense of those that buy watches to wear. The new buyers main talking points when it comes to Rolex is only how hard the watch is to get or how much over msrp the watch is selling for. They are not watch enthusiast nor does it reflect on the product itself. The only one happily pulling the strings is Rolex. The customer now has no power with any aspect of their watch from purchasing to servicing. The Rolex dictatorship has made me very uncomfortable for years as a owner.

When Rolex decides to make other radical changes like possibly swapping out movements instead of servicing them at service centers the owner will be left with no recourse.
Rolex freely admits it has no responsibility to carry parts for discontinued movements so forget about handing down that 50 year old Rolex to a family member. Only a decade back, the independent watchmakers had access to parts to keep these old beautiful Rolex watches up and running indefinitely. Those days are gone.
There are a lot of other wonderful watch brands out their you can actually purchase that admittedly not so heavily controlled so you have to accept the advantages and disadvantages that goes along with it.

If/when the house of Rolex cards falls, it will be monumentally horrific as too much of Rolex are artificially controlled unlike other manufactures where the free market has more of a hand in their future. Rolex feels too much like the housing market a decade back in its artificial value and desirability.
As a owner, I am much more concerned with being caught in a servicing dilemma down the road.

Dead on. Rolex has not done nearly enough to protect it's true customer experience. There is a reason they insist on fancy AD showrooms, as they are trying to make for a remembered experience for their customers. Problem is you cannot buy anything as the cases are mostly empty. Now if you want a Rolex you have to deal with some internet or back alley carpetbagger grey. No thanks. They do not need to flood the market but rather bump production a bit and hammer any AD that is caught selling to a flipper. Many will say they are wisely leveraging the brand, I suspect they are bumbling around not sure what to do. Whatever it is they need to figure it out as I have the same sentiment. Lots of other cool watches out there and the current fad will change. In that respect they are destined to be a lot like Panerai.

[Jamie1111]

Originally Posted by Mystro

I am on the flip side. I won’t play the Rolex game of watches you can’t find or buy so my money is going to Panerai. I also own all the Rolex watches I will ever need.
Rolex watches and Panerai watches have their own design and look. Neither will be confused with anything else. Panerai will always be the ultimate strap watch to me.
I love the Panerai brand and their top tier lines with new materials like Carbotech are on fire and their new in-house 9010 movement is outstanding.
Panerai enthusiast are still alive and very strong. The commodity watch brokers have left the brand and have focused on Rolex.

The Panerai Carbotech is the toughest and most comfortable automatic watch I have ever owned by a large margin.

So that one can get wet?


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[Mystro]

Originally Posted by Jamie1111

So that one can get wet?


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Oh snap yes....A genuine proper WR300M dive watch made out of fancy high tech Carbotech with a advanced in-house movement, twin barrel mainspring with a 72hr power reserve and ceramic rotor bearings. Entirely developed and created in the Panerai Manufacture in Neuchâtel.

[Jamie1111]

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[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by superpop

Dead on. Rolex has not done nearly enough to protect it's true customer experience. There is a reason they insist on fancy AD showrooms, as they are trying to make for a remembered experience for their customers. Problem is you cannot buy anything as the cases are mostly empty. Now if you want a Rolex you have to deal with some internet or back alley carpetbagger grey. No thanks. They do not need to flood the market but rather bump production a bit and hammer any AD that is caught selling to a flipper. Many will say they are wisely leveraging the brand, I suspect they are bumbling around not sure what to do. Whatever it is they need to figure it out as I have the same sentiment. Lots of other cool watches out there and the current fad will change. In that respect they are destined to be a lot like Panerai.

The way things are going, a lot of those other “cool brands” might not be around to serve as options.

Rolex is so dominant at the moment that this could be a quartz crisis level extinction for some brands.

Go into their boutiques and Non Rolex AD’s...

No customers in store.

No excitement or demand.

No sales.

That is not sustainable. You’ll start to see doors closing and ad’s dropping brands or getting out of watches and focusing on jewelry...it’s gonna get ugly if you’re not Rolex or Patek

[subtona]

Imho there is no similarity, Panerai attacked and undermined their own brand and value from within by releasing similar limited edition watches.

[JParm]

Originally Posted by jpeezy14@hotmail.com

Outside of the argument that "Rolex is Rolex", what do you guys see differently between Rolex pricing today as compared to Panerai from a few years ago, when pricing was through the roof on every model in the grey market and you couldn't find the most desirable models in stores?

Panerai might have caused some of their downfall in pricing by releasing too many LE's and even non-LE pieces that all were very similar in style. While I don't see Rolex doing something to that extent, do you guys see similarities between the hot Rolex prices now vs. the hot prices of Panerai (and subsequent vast reductions) of yesteryear?

I started this thread a little over a year ago, and pricing has only gotten worse. Who would have thought...

[Juantxo]

Panerai was a flash in the pan. A “rediscovered” brand like so many others (Blancpain, Breguet, etc.). Rolex is Rolex.

[zjd168]

Originally Posted by subtona

Imho there is no similarity, Panerai attacked and undermined their own brand and value from within by releasing similar limited edition watches.

This

[amh]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

Everybody knows what a Rolex is,Nobody knows what a Panerai is....End Thread.

Originally Posted by Vince KSA

Probably the daftest comment that I've read on here in a while.

Shortsighted at best, just plain ignorant at worst.

Rather than ending the thread, just end your contributions.

Rolex as is well known as Coca Cola. Relative to that, Panerai is indeed a non-brand.

Not sure how to quantify this, but I do see Rolex at the top of lists like this:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/karsten.../#ae4e3492fe33

Where is Panerai?

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by amh

Rolex as is well known as Coca Cola. Relative to that, Panerai is indeed a non-brand.

Not sure how to quantify this, but I do see Rolex at the top of lists like this:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/karsten.../#ae4e3492fe33

Where is Panerai?

That doesn’t mean Panerai is unknown. Just relative to Rolex. If that’s your criteria AP, VC and Lange are unknown.

[sinkholeninja]

Everyone should read this about Panerai:

"It appears that for Bonati Officine Panerai was somehow a joke. He was heard saying that the Panerai watch was “un orologio del cazzo”, a shit watch (cazzo = dick). He even had three watches made with the inscription “Cazzomir” and hour markers with the shape of dicks to mock the watch (as seen in the photo below)."

https://perezcope.com/2018/02/15/pam...-of-the-fiddy/

[AK797]

Originally Posted by jpeezy14@hotmail.com

I started this thread a little over a year ago, and pricing has only gotten worse. Who would have thought...

I knew by mid 2017 that Rolex would not change supply or prices after the Brexit bump in the UK changed the market here entirely and they did almost nothing, so unless a black swan flew in or Social Media got banned I didn't see anything changing, but the speed at which prices are moving up this year is pretty alarming.

[Jamie1111]

Originally Posted by MSchott

That doesn’t mean Panerai is unknown. Just relative to Rolex. If that’s your criteria AP, VC and Lange are unknown.

AP is rather we’ll known, vc and Lange not so much. Lange was gone for about 50 years and VC was in serious trouble. Richemont bought and own both Lange and VC.
AP has stood alone throughout its lifespan (like Rolex) and AP is and has been a very reputable brand throughout.


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[JParm]

Originally Posted by AK797

I knew by mid 2017 that Rolex would not change supply or prices after the Brexit bump in the UK changed the market here entirely and they did almost nothing, so unless a black swan flew in or Social Media got banned I didn't see anything changing, but the speed at which prices are moving up this year is pretty alarming.

Agree with you there. It can't last forever...can it???

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by Jamie1111

AP is rather we’ll known, vc and Lange not so much. Lange was gone for about 50 years and VC was in serious trouble. Richemont bought and own both Lange and VC.
AP has stood alone throughout its lifespan (like Rolex) and AP is and has been a very reputable brand throughout.


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That’s not really the point.

[TswaneNguni]

Blue Bronzo ...my favourite in the collection .

[ian.thomas]

I was a hardcore fanboy of the brand, but dumped all my PAMs (5 total) in '05 - '06 due to their extremely poor customer service.

Rolex, on the other hand, has been nothing but the best in customer service.

[Wristwatcherboy]

I had a Panerai Luminor Marina 44mm. The fit and finish was impeccable, the quality was easily on par with Rolex. Also the customer service from the London Bond Street Boutique was outstanding, it was probably the best I’ve ever had. However I sold it and bought a Rolex SD43. The Panerai just wore too large, the dial was too empty and the lack of a date eventually really bothered me. Also the crown always felt a bit flimsy and not substantial enough especially when pulling out to set the time. The SD43 has so far been perfect in every way.

[daveo5]

Questionable service in the US keeps me away.


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[jimcameron]

[QUOTE=Wristwatcherboy;9812121]

Exhibit A. I had a Panerai Luminor Marina 44mm. The fit and finish was impeccable, the quality was easily on par with Rolex.

Exhibit B. Also the crown always felt a bit flimsy and not substantial enough especially when pulling out to set the time.

Exhibit C. Rolex SD43[Quote]


A + B does not equal C

[agentmeister5]

Originally Posted by Mystro

Rolex freely admits it has no responsibility to carry parts for discontinued movements so forget about handing down that 50 year old Rolex to a family member. Only a decade back, the independent watchmakers had access to parts to keep these old beautiful Rolex watches up and running indefinitely. Those days are gone.

I did not know this about Rolex. So if my Rolex gets to the point where it's 20, 25 years old or older and the part isn't available then I'd pretty much be stuck with a watch that doesn't work?

[MercedesHand]

Originally Posted by jpeezy14@hotmail.com

Right - but my point is that Rolex is in the same boat, with desirable pieces not being attainable at MSRP or unless you have the right relationships.

What's stopping Rolexes from going down the same path in the future in terms of loss of value?

Where to begin?

1) Rolex is Top 5 Brand "name" in the whole world.
2) Rolex doesnt go down the limited edition chute.
3) Rolex has multiple line up of watches in multiple size, colors, styles.
4) Rolex doesnt jack their MSRP in haphazard way
5) Rolex management/vision
6) Rolex would NEVER reduce it's dive watches water resistance to reduce MSRP
7) Rolex can be worn on varied wrist sizes. Tuna cans and dinner plates cannot.
8) Rolex is more versatile. Probably not going to see many Panerai at Black tie/Formal event
9) Sylvestor Stallone and Ahhnold are 75 years old.
10) Rolex FAR superior resale value.

As a fan of watches I am saddened to see Panerai's missteps. I owned a Pam 86 anthracite dial which was a great watch but pushed my absolute limits of wearability. Bought it used and still took a bath on resale.

Everything cycles and the Crown is King for the masses who wish to profile and possess more $ than sense. One day, though, the bubble will burst and there will be a new flavor of the watch wearers. However when that happens Rolex will not be caught flat footed and IF/when price drops, it will go no lower than MSRP. Not exactly inexpensive.

Superior brand recognition, excellent quality, astute management that does not answer to shareholders.

Only Rolex can jam up Rolex. And they're too clever for that.

[metdrdg]

Personally I like both brands, but because I have multiple watches I prefer to acquire pieces that tend to hold value better. Panerai was hot but they just just supplied waaay too much and far too many “limited” editions. If they shut down production like Rolex and Patek I’m sure desire for their brand would pick up. That, and get John Mayer to say a couple things about them on Hodinkee. :)

[GaloCinza]

Panerai is an incredible watch maker and the marketing behind military/large pieces is brillant! But in the end of the day its niche player and they want to remain a niche player, making money on that space.

Rolex is Rolex, very few brands (PP and AP, maybe) can be closed compared to Rolex as a brand, company and creator of innovations.

On the other hand, being Rolex is a burden, making it more difficult to change designs and to go after some niches and short term hypes/trends, so they are doing a great job with Tudor on that space (come on: BB Bronze is a poor copy of the Bronzos...)


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[donq]

Comparing Rolex and Panerai is like comparing Mercedes Benz and Hummer.

[Wristwatcherboy]

[QUOTE=jimcameron;9812269][QUOTE=Wristwatcherboy;9812121]

Exhibit A. I had a Panerai Luminor Marina 44mm. The fit and finish was impeccable, the quality was easily on par with Rolex.

Exhibit B. Also the crown always felt a bit flimsy and not substantial enough especially when pulling out to set the time.

Exhibit C. Rolex SD43

A + B does not equal C

Thanks for the algebra lesson but in my case it obviously does.

[BLNR Nairobi]

Originally Posted by Vince KSA

I love Rolex and it will always be the backbone of my collection, as the brand just stands the test of time,.. time and time again.

However I also love my Pan on the right occasion.


Attachment 1056211

That is achingly beautiful.

[TswaneNguni]

289 with dot ... some days ,Rolex in my own inventory, is just too boring .