50th Anniversary Sub LV Paperwork

[Punchthefatkid]

This 50th Anniversary Sub may be 100% genuine and if it is I apologise in advance to the seller, however I have the following concern over the paperwork at least.

I was always under the impression that the ONLY way to tell a genuine Anniversary LV from a regular black face Sub of the same model year was that the paperwork was stamped LV after the serial number.

There are no other LV references on the watch itself.

This sellers paperwork has no LV reference.

Also the original purchasers name & details seem to be printed/typed on?

Would this be normal on the old paper warrantees or would they be hand written and the AD's details be on a rubber stamp?

Regarding the AD details - I had a quick google of the name J.E Caldwell & Co.

They do appear to be a genuine jewellery store (located in Philadelphia not Miami) but not a genuine Rolex AD - maybe someone could confirm this?

Also the paperwork is stamped 'Non Transferable' but my understanding was always that the warrantee is International and travels with the watch.

Ill let you guys have a look and let me know if I am barking up the wrong tree on this one.

Regards

Max


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rolex-1661...oAAOSwZQRYg4Lo

[yannis]

I believe there were watches that did not have LV written on the warranty. Printed owner's name and non transferable writing seem very odd though.
I would not buy from a seller with no feedback on high end sales.

[Punchthefatkid]

Originally Posted by yannis7777

I believe there were watches that did not have LV written on the warranty. Printed owner's name and non transferable writing seem very odd though.
I would not buy from a seller with no feedback on high end sales.

My only source for this info is David Khalil of Watch Collectors UK.

Here is a link to his Youtube channel and in particular his comments on the LV having to have the original paperwork to prove its genuine.

This guy deals in vintage/used Rolex all day everyday so I would kind of trust his word on this one.

https://youtu.be/Tic0m-gQ6Ks

[freefly]

Originally Posted by Punchthefatkid

I was always under the impression that the ONLY way to tell a genuine Anniversary LV from a regular black face Sub of the same model year was that the paperwork was stamped LV after the serial number.

No "LV" after the SN (on the older papers or newer warranty cards). There are physical differences in the watches as well.
The case is the same, as is the reference number between the lugs. However, the dial, bezel insert, and hands are all different than a "standard" Submariner 16610.

Originally Posted by Punchthefatkid

This sellers paperwork has no LV reference.

The papers clearly show the reference as 16610V, which is correct for the 50th Anniversary model (as is 16610LV on the later warranty cards).

Originally Posted by Punchthefatkid

Also the original purchasers name & details seem to be printed/typed on?

Would this be normal on the old paper warrantees or would they be hand written and the AD's details be on a rubber stamp?

AD's can fill them out differently. This particular AD looks to have had a printer template set up to print the buyer's name/info as opposed to hand-writing it.

Originally Posted by Punchthefatkid

Regarding the AD details - I had a quick google of the name J.E Caldwell & Co.

They do appear to be a genuine jewellery store (located in Philadelphia not Miami) but not a genuine Rolex AD - maybe someone could confirm this?

They were a reputable AD that had been in business since the 1840's, but went out of business several years ago AFAIK.

[Punchthefatkid]

Originally Posted by freefly

No "LV" after the SN (on the older papers or newer warranty cards). There are physical differences in the watches as well.
The case is the same, as is the reference number between the lugs. However, the dial, bezel insert, and hands are all different than a "standard" Submariner 16610.

The papers clearly show the reference as 16610V, which is correct for the 50th Anniversary model (as is 16610LV on the later warranty cards).

AD's can fill them out differently. This particular AD looks to have had a printer template set up to print the buyer's name/info as opposed to hand-writing it.

They were a reputable AD that had been in business since the 1840's, but went out of business several years ago AFAIK.

Your info regarding the V or LV reference to the anniversary model contradicts what David Khalil of watch collectors UK says, (youtube link in post#3) but I am quite new to the world of Rolex so have no reason to disbelieve you.

However, this is the first time anyone has said there are physical differences with the actual watch regarding the dial and hands - could you clarify these?

Thanks for the update.

[freefly]

Originally Posted by Punchthefatkid

Your info regarding the V or LV reference to the anniversary model contradicts what David Khalil of watch collectors UK says, (youtube link in post#3) but I am quite new to the world of Rolex so have no reason to disbelieve you.

I don't know what else I can tell you. If "David Khalil" is the chap in the video you posted above, almost everything he states is wrong. Both 16610V and 16610LV are correct for that reference.
You will see the former on both the older style papers, and early warranty cards, and the latter on the later warranty cards.

Originally Posted by Punchthefatkid

However, this is the first time anyone has said there are physical differences with the actual watch regarding the dial and hands - could you clarify these?

Maybe the first time you are hearing it, but certainly not the first time it's been said, as that is the reality of the situation.
It would seem as though you (and the guy in the video) haven't actually compared the two, as the differences are quite obvious.
The LVs have "maxi" (larger) dial markers/hands in addition to the green bezel.

[Punchthefatkid]

Originally Posted by freefly

I don't know what else I can tell you. If "David Khalil" is the chap in the video you posted above, almost everything he states is wrong. Both 16610V and 16610LV are correct for that reference.
You will see the former on both the older style papers, and early warranty cards, and the latter on the later warranty cards.

Maybe the first time you are hearing it, but certainly not the first time it's been said, as that is the reality of the situation.
It would seem as though you (and the guy in the video) haven't actually compared the two, as the differences are quite obvious.
The LVs have "maxi" (larger) dial markers/hands in addition to the green bezel.

I take your comments on board about the maxi dial etc.

Found this old thread on the subject from 2009!

Appears to confirm what you say about the V on the paperwork but does go on to say that LV will be referenced on the green hang tag.

So without the hang tag at least it would still be difficult to prove it was a genuine LV and not a standard black face Sub with a bezel swap.

[CLH15]

Originally Posted by Punchthefatkid

I take your comments on board about the maxi dial etc.

Found this old thread on the subject from 2009!

Appears to confirm what you say about the V on the paperwork but does go on to say that LV will be referenced on the green hang tag.

So without the hang tag at least it would still be difficult to prove it was a genuine LV and not a standard black face Sub with a bezel swap.

If it the paperwork says 16610V and the serial matches the watch then surely its a genuine LV?

Best way would be to get it checked at RSC i suppose

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by CLH15

If it the paperwork says 16610V and the serial matches the watch then surely its a genuine LV?

Best way would be to get it checked at RSC i suppose

Which is it then??

[freefly]

Originally Posted by Punchthefatkid

I take your comments on board about the maxi dial etc.

Found this old thread on the subject from 2009!

Appears to confirm what you say about the V on the paperwork but does go on to say that LV will be referenced on the green hang tag.

So without the hang tag at least it would still be difficult to prove it was a genuine LV and not a standard black face Sub with a bezel swap.

You contradict yourself in the same post. First you acknowledge the fact that the 50th Anniversary models have the larger maxi dial, but then suggest that it would still be difficult to prove it was a genuine LV without the hang tag.

Again, the 50th Anniversary Submariner (for which both 16610V and 16610LV are correct reference numbers) has a larger maxi dial and matching larger/wider maxi hands (the minute hand being the most obvious).
So, you can easily "authenticate" one by simply looking at it. It would be cost-prohibitive to source a genuine maxi-dial, hands, and bezel insert to install on a "normal" 16610 Submariner, so that possibility is basically nil.

[freefly]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

Which is it then??

As above, both 16610V and 16610LV are correct reference numbers for the 50th Anniversary Submariner. However, the actual case markings are the same for both standard and Anniversary models (16610 T).

[DCgator]

To ease your mind take it to a RSC or to an AD with a watchmaker on premises and get a confirmation Re your particular watch.

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by freefly

As above, both 16610V and 16610LV are correct reference numbers for the 50th Anniversary Submariner. However, the actual case markings are the same for both standard and Anniversary models (16610 T).

I was more interested in this
Best way would be to get it checked at RSC i suppose

[freefly]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

I was more interested in this
Best way would be to get it checked at RSC i suppose

I really don't understand the confusion here.
We are not talking about identifying a fake watch, but simply differentiating between a genuine/original 16610LV and a genuine "normal" Submariner. Or, how to be sure that a 16610LV is not a "frankened" 16610.

So, in that context, one simply needs to look at the watch. No papers, hang-tags, or RSC visit needed to tell the difference. The LV will have the larger maxi dial and hands. Yes, one could source a genuine green bezel insert and fit it on a standard Sub. However, it would be readily apparent, as it would still have the standard dial/hands. Further, sourcing a maxi dial and hands (in addition to the green insert) for a normal 16610 would cost more than simply buying an LV in the first place.

OK, I think I've repeated myself enough here...

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by freefly

I really don't understand the confusion here.
We are not talking about identifying a fake watch, but simply differentiating between a genuine/original 16610LV and a genuine "normal" Submariner. Or, how to be sure that a 16610LV is not a "frankened" 16610.

So, in that context, one simply needs to look at the watch. No papers, hang-tags, or RSC visit needed to tell the difference. The LV will have the larger maxi dial and hands. Yes, one could source a genuine green bezel insert and fit it on a standard Sub. However, it would be readily apparent, as it would still have the standard dial/hands. Further, sourcing a maxi dial and hands (in addition to the green insert) for a normal 16610 would cost more than simply buying an LV in the first place.

OK, I think I've repeated myself enough here...

Eric
I am 100% with you.
You have answered it all magnificently - no issue.

Then we get posts confirming what you said OR Visit an AD?

I am on your side.
a

[freefly]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

Eric
I am 100% with you.
You have answered it all magnificently - no issue.

Then we get posts confirming what you said OR Visit an AD?

I am on your side.
a

Gotcha. I just don't see the need for an AD/RSC visit for something that is so easily determined via visual inspection. Just look at the dial/hands and you will have your answer.

That being said, I think the more important issue would be determining authenticity in general. In other words, if you are looking at a 16610LV with no box or papers, the bigger concern should be if it's a complete counterfeit piece altogether, not whether it's a genuine 16610 with a LV dial/hands/bezel swap. The former is far more probable/likely than the latter (and some of the fakes of that reference are impressive/scary). So in that regard, if you aren't comfortable deteriming the overall authenticity via visual and/or hands-on inspection, then by all means take it to an AD/RSC. OK, now MY head hurts...

[GLADIATOR]

[yannis]

I still do not get the non transferable and printed name on the papers guys. Was that common?

[springer]

Everything below the dealer's name on the warranty paper is completed by the dealer. He can write, he can print or he can type whatever he chooses. It makes no difference. Some dealers even chose to leave it blank or partially blank. Additionally, the dealer chose to stamp non transferable on the paper, which is not an issue at all. If I remember correctly, there was a time when warranties were not transferable but I am uncertain when this changed.

Freefly has covered everything. I agree and do not see any issues with this paper.

Below is a photo of my one owner, brand new in-the-box 16610LV. Notice there is no LV anywhere in the serial number, just the V coded within the serial number. There is an LV after the model number on the green hang tag.

To the OP, be careful out there on the internet, there is plenty of misinformation to be found there.

[Johny]

hi op.

the letter V after the serial refers to the French word for green which is verte.

the letters LV refer to the French words for green bezel which are lunette verte.

[NorthernPike]

My Z serial LV bought new from AD in 2008 has a very slightly different warranty paper. Serial # is followed by LV, and is hole-punched at the top.
There is a sleeve that goes over the outer box. It is labelled 16610LV Maxi Dial.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by Punchthefatkid

My only source for this info is David Khalil of Watch Collectors UK.

Here is a link to his Youtube channel and in particular his comments on the LV having to have the original paperwork to prove its genuine.

This guy deals in vintage/used Rolex all day everyday so I would kind of trust his word on this one.

https://youtu.be/Tic0m-gQ6Ks

Rubbish..

This dude makes a 9 minute video about the 16610LV and doesn't mention that this reference has the maxi dial and hands in addition to the green bezel???!! C'mon...

Umm....yeah. I suggest finding another "expert" ...

[freefly]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

Umm....yeah. I suggest finding another "expert" ...

It's funny, I was watching another video of his when the OP posted the original link. In that video he was condemning "couch professors" for giving out false/misleading information.
Yet in the same breath he went on to state that coronet on the winding crown will never be in the same position when screwed down because "depending on the position you start at will inflict the ending position". Uh, what? LOL...

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by freefly

It's funny, I was watching another video of his when the OP posted the original link. In that video he was condemning "couch professors" for giving out false/misleading information.
Yet in the same breath he went on to state that coronet on the winding crown will never be in the same position when screwed down because "depending on the position you start at will inflict the ending position". Uh, what? LOL...

Lol...that youtube guy is a twit

[Punchthefatkid]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

Rubbish..

This dude makes a 9 minute video about the 16610LV and doesn't mention that this reference has the maxi dial and hands in addition to the green bezel???!! C'mon...

Umm....yeah. I suggest finding another "expert" ...

It looks like I just did...

Sent from my XT1072 using Tapatalk

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by freefly

It's funny, I was watching another video of his when the OP posted the original link. In that video he was condemning "couch professors" for giving out false/misleading information.
Yet in the same breath he went on to state that coronet on the winding crown will never be in the same position when screwed down because "depending on the position you start at will inflict the ending position". Uh, what? LOL...

Same guy also put out up a Youtube video saying that Rolex warranty would no longer be transferable late last year. That one seems to have been taken down.

[crowncollection]

Eric has covered it all and I concur with others everything is normal and correct in this listing.


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[Zoran]

Paperwork seems good as other have indicated.
If you really want to be sure it is an LV, have your AD run the serial number.
It should come up as an LV. I did so with mine as well...

[patrolmi]

My F series from 2005 only has a V -- I think it's correct. That is unless I got scammed by an AD back then which I doubt. The associated hang tag had LV on it.

[Gaijin]

Originally Posted by patrolmi

My F series from 2005 only has a V -- I think it's correct. That is unless I got scammed by an AD back then which I doubt. The associated hang tag had LV on it.

You're fine.