6202 Turn-O-Graph -- What Do I Really Have Here?

[shoemakj]

Hello everyone. First post with a questions about a Turn-O-Graph that I found in a bag full of watches.

Quick backstory: My father was a jeweler and Rolex dealer from the mid-60s until 1983. When he closed his last store, everything that didn't sell at time was boxed up and put away, including some old merchandise. He died a couple of years ago and mom is ready to downsize and move to someplace smaller, so that means going through *everything* in the house.

Recently, I literally found a "bag-o-watches" in a box and this one was mixed in among them. It's marked 6202 and the serial number is 950xxx. It has a C&I Oyster bracelet marked 7-66, so I know it's not original. It was most likely a watch taken in trade for a newer one in the early 70s. Perhaps used as a loaner until it stopped working.

Based on today's valuations of these watches, I thought I had a real "barn find" on my hands until I started comparing the dial to other 6202 examples. It looks like this one's been poorly redone.

My question (if you've made it this far) is how should I proceed in getting this watch back in service? Or should I not even bother and just sell it as-is for parts?

Appreciate any helpful advice!

--Jim

[Autavian]

Fake dial

[shoemakj]

I was afraid of that. I'm sure my dad knew it as well, which is why he tossed it in a bag of random watches instead of repairing and reselling it 40 years ago. Maybe I'll take it to an indy shop and have them look around the inside to see if it's worth salvaging. Thanks.

[CaveDiver]

I would not say fake dial. It is a redone dial and has characteristics of a redone dial of long ago. Fairly common. Can’t tell for sure, but the hands look good from the limited views. The watch has value. The bezel and insert appear to be original from the limited views. This watch is far from trash.
Cd

[henrylee]

I wouldn't trash it yet, this could turn into something interesting

[Dr.Smellody]

I like it. Personally sick of keyboard commandos calling everything fake. Very few dials, due to the shape, will fit on an a260 or a296 movement. So, I highly doubt it is FAKE. Redone in the 60s or 70s like probably 90% were is HIGHLY likely.

I think 6200, 6202, 6204, and 6205 watches with real, but redone dials deserve their own world.

The six or 15 people on the planet with original (not repainted) dials should be happy for what they have and have some appreciation for those other, less than pristine watches, that have survived.

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by CaveDiver

I would not say fake dial. It is a redone dial and has characteristics of a redone dial of long ago. Fairly common. Can’t tell for sure, but the hands look good from the limited views. The watch has value. The bezel and insert appear to be original from the limited views. This watch is far from trash.
Cd

This^^ IMHO still a valuable watch

[TheVTCGuy]

I am not smart enough to tell you which parts are real, fake, original or re done, but AM smart enough to know it is definitely not “trash.” I think it has a lot of character as is, but if the dial is not a real Rolex, then i would send it in for restoration. It may or may not be worth it monetarily, but I think would become an excellent vintage piece someone cherish

[Paul]

Originally Posted by CaveDiver

I would not say fake dial. It is a redone dial and has characteristics of a redone dial of long ago. Fairly common. Can’t tell for sure, but the hands look good from the limited views. The watch has value. The bezel and insert appear to be original from the limited views. This watch is far from trash.
Cd

.... popped up on a VRF thread a while back. So darn hard to retrieve things on VRF now ( no Search engine and blocked Photobucket pics ) but here it is in its now-compromised form.


http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...ographic+proof

Another example of that style 6202 dial sold on eBay last year. Looked to be NOS and I had a lazy try at buying it, deeming it to be interesting enough for a dial-less 6202 gathering dust on my bench down here. The eBay dial sold for pocket-money so the market seemed to have tagged it as just another refinished dial.


For me, the dial has a cool, kinda raw quality to it. It would take a lot to convince me that it has any link to the Rolex factory, but the very early Sub dials were also fairly basic in their execution with some variance of characteristics even amongst a small run reference like the 6202.


Is there anything printed below the 6:00 o'clock marker ?

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by henrylee

I wouldn't trash it yet, this could turn into something interesting

Agree!!!

[rootbeer7]

We need to be sympathetic to 're-done' dials afterall these watches are old. In fact, they make great daily wearers. Definitely not trash!!

[Frogman4me]

Looks to have a refinished dial but the rest of the parts have strong value if correct.

[R.W.T.]

This is a typical RNY refin. I have seen at least a couple of models serviced by RNY in the 60's with this dial. My own included 6202. Their paperwork has a tick box for dial refinish. My guess is that when a watch was uncommon and service dials not stocked in NY due to lack of traffic...6610 is another example I have seen...they would simply send the dial out locally for refinish rather than wait for the shipment from Geneva. Speculation of course. I have this EXACT dial with the bits from my 6202 though the box for refinish is not ticked.

The insert looks to be a fairly fresh service insert from the same period albeit the scratch at 3:00...

It's a great watch. Dials are rare in the wild but not unheard of.

[watchcrank]

Dials do come up time to time. The bezel & insert are actually more difficult to obtain in good condition. Nice find & I would not hesitate to wear as is. M

[R.W.T.]

Originally Posted by watchcrank

Dials do come up time to time. The bezel & insert are actually more difficult to obtain in good condition. Nice find & I would not hesitate to wear as is. M

Yep...I agree.

[Wembleyisgreen]

I don't know what it is exactly, but I sure do think it looks cool.

[shoemakj]

Sorry for the late response, but work had me going 110% last week. Thanks for the all the encouragement and advice. I really appreciate it. I'm leaning toward getting it serviced. Taking it to an indy Rolex watchmaker here to get an estimate and see how comfortable he is with vintage stuff.

[Vlad]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

Yep...I agree.

+1

Redone dial, replacement bracelet, original bezel and insert.

From the pictures, the case seems to be over polished. Are the numbers (model and serial) clearly visible or are they worn out?

Do you have a picture of the movement? Some of them came with a beautiful gold plated finish (Tommy knows...)

[Autavian]

Originally Posted by Dr.Smellody

I like it. Personally sick of keyboard commandos calling everything fake. .

“Keyboard commandos” that’s cute.

Refinished, aftermarket, fake, whatever you prefer to call it, it’s not correct and not original which significantly affects the value of any watch, particularly those pre 60s.

Of course there is value in parts that might be original, insert, bezel, case, movt, caseback etc. min hand looks to be a 13mm which could have value as well for those who have 6536,5508s,6538 who need a donor replacement, which many do. Second hand looks to be longer than the min hand.

Yes, maybe 5-15 people have the right dial configuration etc as with many pieces from the 50s, scarcity in age right?

If any owner of a refinished not original dial feels comfortable wearing a vintage watch with that dial, that’s for them to decide, I’m in no position to judge. More power to them. As far as value is concerned, there’s without a doubt a big decrease.

Sincerely,

Keyboard Commando ;)

[Dr.Smellody]

Originally Posted by Autavian

“Keyboard commandos” that’s cute.

Refinished, aftermarket, fake, whatever you prefer to call it, it’s not correct and not original which significantly affects the value of any watch, particularly those pre 60s.

Of course there is value in parts that might be original, insert, bezel, case, movt, caseback etc. min hand looks to be a 13mm which could have value as well for those who have 6536,5508s,6538 who need a donor replacement, which many do. Second hand looks to be longer than the min hand.

Yes, maybe 5-15 people have the right dial configuration etc as with many pieces from the 50s, scarcity in age right?

If any owner of a refinished not original dial feels comfortable wearing a vintage watch with that dial, that’s for them to decide, I’m in no position to judge. More power to them. As far as value is concerned, there’s without a doubt a big decrease.

Sincerely,

Keyboard Commando ;)

Incorrect. Let's go with watch with an original dial that was refinished by someone other than Rolex 50 years ago.

I stand by words and do not disagree that the removal of an a260 or a296 dial at service and refinishing incredibly impacts the value. But NOT FAKE.

[R.W.T.]

Originally Posted by Vlad

+1

Redone dial, replacement bracelet, original bezel and insert.

From the pictures, the case seems to be over polished. Are the numbers (model and serial) clearly visible or are they worn out?

Do you have a picture of the movement? Some of them came with a beautiful gold plated finish (Tommy knows...)

I don't think the case is over polished. Photos don't really show well. They weren't terribly thick lugs to begin with. The band looks to be USA or incorrect ends and they don't fit up well.

I think the case is fine. I think you will might possibly find an RNY felt tip mark in the case back. As for all of the criticism of the dial...sure...it's refinished. The bezel and insert are worth more than an original dial and MUCH harder to find in that condition. I'd MUCH rather be looking for a dial than a bezel and insert for a 6202. You can certainly wear that watch as is once serviced and keep your eye out for the dial.

[Dr.Smellody]

In 1954, an $80, $90, or $100 watch would have a been a huge investment for anyone.

After five or ten years of wear, it would probably be the self winding module coupling spring (part 5607) that would break first. Although the bubbleback movements were robust, daily wear and winding didnt offer the same service life as a modern sub.

When new, the glowing radium dials must have been incredible. Glowing in the day I imagine. After a year or so that performance would deminish.... at ten years the radium would have discolored the Dial, the lume would barely glow and the settling radium, and whatever the radium dissolved, dust would discolor and degrade the dial.

Watch isn't self winding and a manual wind lasts 12 hours. Time for a service.

Unless you lived in NYC, service centers were not readily available to 90% of customers. Besides..... in the 1960's there were still able And capable watchmakers in most every community.

By now a new sub was a couple hundred bucks or more. Service was probably $10 from the local watchmaker. The customer would complain at service that they missed their lume or other dial details. The watchmaker would grind down the dial and refinish it themselves or send to dial refinishing house if the customer wanted to pay.

Could you imagine the horror to our modern Rolex aficionados if their watch was returned in 1962 by their watchmaker and it looked like the dial had been refinished by a toddler?

Anyhow. They accepted the watch, now self winding, and wore it for 10 more years. For their $15 investment, they still had a Rolex and it was reliable and working again. The dial also glowed again for another fiver years. In 1965, there were not Rolex knockoffs in Tijuana or mass produced in China.

Fast forward fifty years, people call them FAKE? I think not. I call them survivors that have lost 90% of their value. They still have a place though. Not everyone has $50k or more for one of the 25 or 50 examples that didn't get used and was therefore NOT molested.

[SgWatchBaron]

Dropped you a PM sir

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Dr.Smellody

In 1954, an $80, $90, or $100 watch would have a been a huge investment for anyone.

After five or ten years of wear, it would probably be the self winding module coupling spring (part 5607) that would break first. Although the bubbleback movements were robust, daily wear and winding didnt offer the same service life as a modern sub.

When new, the glowing radium dials must have been incredible. Glowing in the day I imagine. After a year or so that performance would deminish.... at ten years the radium would have discolored the Dial, the lume would barely glow and the settling radium, and whatever the radium dissolved, dust would discolor and degrade the dial.

Watch isn't self winding and a manual wind lasts 12 hours. Time for a service.

Unless you lived in NYC, service centers were not readily available to 90% of customers. Besides..... in the 1960's there were still able And capable watchmakers in most every community.

By now a new sub was a couple hundred bucks or more. Service was probably $10 from the local watchmaker. The customer would complain at service that they missed their lume or other dial details. The watchmaker would grind down the dial and refinish it themselves or send to dial refinishing house if the customer wanted to pay.

Could you imagine the horror to our modern Rolex aficionados if their watch was returned in 1962 by their watchmaker and it looked like the dial had been refinished by a toddler?

Anyhow. They accepted the watch, now self winding, and wore it for 10 more years. For their $15 investment, they still had a Rolex and it was reliable and working again. The dial also glowed again for another fiver years. In 1965, there were not Rolex knockoffs in Tijuana or mass produced in China.

Fast forward fifty years, people call them FAKE? I think not. I call them survivors that have lost 90% of their value. They still have a place though. Not everyone has $50k or more for one of the 25 or 50 examples that didn't get used and was therefore NOT molested.

This.

[onthedial]

@shoemakj
It would be interesting to see your dial photographed with a macro lens under studio lighting, shot from different angles. Without seeing better pics, my feeling is that your watch could be authentic, although the dial has been re-painted.
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Instagram: @onthedial