The vagaries of the VRF "elite"... story told here since it was deleted on VRF

[psv]

Originally Posted by RolexWatcher

Might be hard to be THE Roger Moore given Roger was English and was in the British Army rather than the US Army but we can only hope! :)

Roger said he is a grad of UN Naval Academy. How is that US Army?

And that other Roger Moore, if you are referring to James Bond, he was a Commander in the British Navy, not Army.

[RolexWatcher]

Originally Posted by psv

Roger said he is a grad of UN Naval Academy. How is that US Army?

And that other Roger Moore, if you are referring to James Bond, he was a Commander in the British Navy, not Army.

Sorry got myself navy and army mixed up :)

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by psv

Roger said he is a grad of UN Naval Academy. How is that US Army?

And that other Roger Moore, if you are referring to James Bond, he was a Commander in the British Navy, not Army.

Royal Navy !!
the Army is just "British" after Cromwell ....

[psv]

Originally Posted by RolexWatcher

Sorry got myself navy and army mixed up :)

Isn't that a faux-pas for a Brit? :-)

(seriously, my first post was made in gist, no hard feelings!)

[marcello pisani]

one of my favourite "all time" pics : UK Special Forces after the liberation of Port Stanley ( 1982 ) with the Falklands flag back in their hands :

[TheDude]

A good bit of advice is to have any new vintage purchase looked over and serviced by someone like Bob Ridley soon after you purchase it. Someone of his stature and credibility will be able to lend credence to any discrepancies that might be discovered.

[Submarino]

Great post and truth well told. I've only done two deals here on TRF following the 'buy the seller' advice and I couldn't be happier. Both KyleL with whom I did a watch trade less than a week ago and Jacek who I purchased my Rootbeer from have been great people to deal with.

Always, try to gauge who you are dealing with and get all your questions answered if possible. If you feel comfortable go with your gut feeling. If they take advantage of you and you discover 'foul play' a while after the transaction, always remember: 'LIFE IS ALL ABOUT KARMA, WHAT COMES AROUND GOES AROUND'. If someone screwed me over and I didn't notice, no worries, the higher order did.

[renfield33]

i enjoyed reading this post. thanks for taking the time. i can't handle browsing the VRF because it looks terrible (on the screen).

[arabesque]

There are two ways to learn/prevent mistakes,

1. read about it and
2. experience personally.

The former is preferred and I get here. Thank you.

[Johny]

good post. i have been lurking on the vrf for some time now with a view to perhaps joining.

[harry in montreal]

Roger, it sounds like you have come across some really aggressive dealers. i have been in the art business forever, and its the same thing there.

certain experts become simple opportunists... some just sink to scammers. i mean the temptation to sit in front of a PC and aggressively offer unethically low prices is just too great. if one pans out each month, then its free money to them.

what is worse is their threats. i dont mind people trying to overstate their piece in a trade, but be nice. in the end, your only form of recourse would be to post the exchange and let others decide.

seeing that you are a successful guy, i wouldnt recommend even trying to clean it up. you never will. money brings out the worst in many people.

if you are ever in montreal i know of a barn fresh early seventies merc 6.3 sedan waiting for a resto !

harry

[springer]

Roger, I read your post here, and along with Orchi and some of the others who have posted a response to you, I echo your sentiments too. There are some real "land sharks" across the bay from TRF!!!!!!

I frequent VRF nightly, and lately, there have been several threads on VRF regarding a 1960 GMT listed there that has a replacement dial, hands, band etc. One of the VRF members posted a thread on this watch and felt the seller needed to list the watch for "what it was" instead of relying on photos for a potential buyer to sort it out. Nothing in the listing mentioned any of the replacement parts. Not long after the thread was started, one member in particuliar, went after the thread with a vengence - even commenting that the original poster wasn't the Rolex police or something to that efect. I was quite shocked at the number of VRF members that were taking shots at this member for trying to draw attention to a vintage watch that contained very few of the original parts - but instead was comprised mostly of Rolex replacement parts. Although the watch was priced according for having replacement parts, individuals on the forum thought that the photos of the watch "spoke for themself" and clearly indicated the parts were Rolex replacements and that it was the buyers responsibility to do his "due diligence" before making an offer on the watch. Some of the comments even took a shot at TRF and how things are done here. That was real special too!

Basically, after reading thru all the posts and threads on this GMT listed on VRF, it was evident that it was the buyers responsibility to know what he was looking at and ask all the appropriate questions before a purchase. The problem with this mentality is many Rolex owners are new to vintage Rolexes and are venturing into the vintage market for the first time and don't know a gilt-dialed GMT from a mark II dial or what is the appropriate dial and bracelt for a particuliar year. Many "newbie" buyers are relying on these sellers descriptions and take them as gospel - afterall, many of these sellers consider themselves experts. Most "newbie" buyers do not know the difference between what is original, and what are replacemet or counterfeit parts. Needless-to-say, I was disappointed in what I read on VRF regarding this GMT thread.

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by springer

Roger, I read your post here, and along with Orchi and some of the others who have posted a response to you, I echo your sentiments too. There are some real "land sharks" across the bay from TRF!!!!!!

I frequent VRF nightly, and lately, there have been several threads on VRF regarding a 1960 GMT listed there that has a replacement dial, hands, band etc. One of the VRF members posted a thread on this watch and felt the seller needed to list the watch for "what it was" instead of relying on photos for a potential buyer to sort it out. Nothing in the listing mentioned any of the replacement parts. Not long after the thread was started, one member in particuliar, went after the thread with a vengence - even commenting that the original poster wasn't the Rolex police or something to that efect. I was quite shocked at the number of VRF members that were taking shots at this member for trying to draw attention to a vintage watch that contained very few of the original parts - but instead was comprised mostly of Rolex replacement parts. Although the watch was priced according for having replacement parts, individuals on the forum thought that the photos of the watch "spoke for themself" and clearly indicated the parts were Rolex replacements and that it was the buyers responsibility to do his "due diligence" before making an offer on the watch. Some of the comments even took a shot at TRF and how things are done here. That was real special too!

Basically, after reading thru all the posts and threads on this GMT listed on VRF, it was evident that it was the buyers responsibility to know what he was looking at and ask all the appropriate questions before a purchase. The problem with this mentality is many Rolex owners are new to vintage Rolexes and are venturing into the vintage market for the first time and don't know a gilt-dialed GMT from a mark II dial or what is the appropriate dial and bracelt for a particuliar year. Many "newbie" buyers are relying on these sellers descriptions and take them as gospel - afterall, many of these sellers consider themselves experts. Most "newbie" buyers do not know the difference between what is original, and what are replacemet or counterfeit parts. Needless-to-say, I was disappointed in what I read on VRF regarding this GMT thread.

this is the real problem : the same thing happens everywhere if there is not a "special" rule in the forum.
in some forums with many mods ( like the italian "Orologi & Passioni" for example ) it's easier to check every new thread in the market section so that all propositions without a clear and real description are corrected either by the mods
or by readers ( but you need very "skilled" ones and not newbies ).
this last option btw creates many times big brawls between the one who opened the thread and other members ....
the best possible solution is to create a rule that forces to indicate replacement parts and after a very big work for the mods.

[Grissom]

Excellent post! And having been a member of the NAWCC since 1976, and having collected for over 40 years, this is not a new phenomena.....I have seen this way before the internet. When professional selling replaces collector to collector interactions, or when some folks attempt to control and direct the market, this can clearly be an outcome. A nice wake up call, to all involved. Luckily here at TRF we have many nice "trusted" sellers who do not exhibit such behavior, in my personal experience.

[Tcaviglioli]

Well I am afraid, that the process of collecting any vintage items involves some bad experiences, unfortunately, meeting some people with low ethics and not so scrupulous, ready to do whatever it takes to make money...

Depending on whether or not, you are lucky, I believe that over time we all had our share of bad experiences (that resulted in financial losses). But like with everything else there bad guys and good guys, and with time you know how to separate them. And you learn enough not to make the same mistakes twice or not to deal again with the certain people.

I have no problem with a dealer trying to make money, it is obviously his professional activity and as long as he's adding value (i.e. he can find watches you could not find by yourself, etc) and show good ethics (usually you can only find out about this, when a problem happens), well you know what you are paying for and this is ultimately your decision.

That being said, I don't believe VRF is better or worse than any other forums on this question, mods do try to sort out individual issues privately which is very helpful and is probably the best solution. Public bashing is very dangerous in my opinion...

Then as with any community of individuals, online or not, problems will appear from time to time, and persons with bad intentions (or bad behaviors) will show up.

Buyer beware is a good rule and now you can find a lot of info on various forums and do your homework before any purchase. Some will still get burnt, but how can we avoid that? As with anything, you need to know what you are buying or you are a fool.

it is in my opinion impossible to police everything but abuses should definitely be reported, it is a small world and reputation is everything.

Just my view...

[Newportkrieger]

A great post IMHO as well HOWEVER, I am disappointed that the OP was not willing to name these "dealers" with whom he had such well documented unpleasant experiences with.

These people do business here and elsewhere that TRF members frequent and knowing who to watch out for is;

1) Always appreciated
2) The only way to apply market pressure to ensure good faith and fair dealing.

Allowing these "dealers" to continue their trade completely anonymous is a disservice to us all.

GO NAVY! BEAT ARMY!

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by Grissom

Excellent post! And having been a member of the NAWCC since 1976, and having collected for over 40 years, this is not a new phenomena.....I have seen this way before the internet. When professional selling replaces collector to collector interactions, or when some folks attempt to control and direct the market, this can clearly be an outcome. A nice wake up call, to all involved. Luckily here at TRF we have many nice "trusted" sellers who do not exhibit such behavior, in my personal experience.

Unfortunately , this is the point i would most agree with...what you see on VRF sales corner is probably the most honest reflection of the vintage watch world as a whole...simply because it has the biggest volume of sales/pieces offered - of which what happens on the internet is but a tiny fraction...compare the number of offerings on there vs the number on trf...VRF offers a bigger window onto the whole watch world.

If you think it is sharky on VRF ...let me assure you it is nothing compared to the real world and by comparison ( and through a lot of hard work) it is squeaky clean . If you don't believe just do a quick ebay search under vintage Rolex on ebay and have a look at the standard of stuff that is peddled on there, the blatant fakes, the lashes ups, the dogs, the watches with added papers, the fraudsters - this is the norm out there boys and girls.......sad but true.

[ExpII]

I've had better luck here on TRF than any of the other forums. I've bought and sold a watch and purchased a few other things. People seem fair and I like that.

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by jedly1

If you think it is sharky on VRF ...let me assure you it is nothing compared to the real world and by comparison ( and through a lot of hard work) it is squeaky clean . If you don't believe just do a quick ebay search under vintage Rolex on ebay and have a look at the standard of stuff that is peddled on there, the blatant fakes, the lashes ups, the dogs, the watches with added papers, the fraudsters - this is the norm out there boys and girls.......sad but true.

you are right !
I'm also sure that you will not love me anymore after the suggestion I have done in my above post ... that would increase SO MUCH your work as mod...
your loveless uncle ...

[jedly1]

yeah ..,.thanks marci....why not take my whole life away :)

to be blunt the problem is not the guys who do not know what they sell like the guy with the GMT yesterday .....the problem is the people who know how to play 'the system'..because always the rules are kept to ...and the trick is in the grey area or the impossible to prove area so there is only one result possible ...an argument over opinion ......

and as we both know our hobby is one of opinion not fact ... look at O&P ...i don't think two people have ever agreed on anything ....

[dddrees]

Ronald Reagan said it best "trust but verify".

In other words not enough checks or ballances, or reguiation exist that governs these transactions.

Unfortunately often it helps to have something that holds individuals accountable for their actions.

This is not to say any forum has this responsibility, or some people aren't honest, it just helps if there is something in place to hold people accountable for their actions.

Go Army!!! Beat Navy!!!

[Saxon007]

to the OP

Well said.

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis

...and I just know before I click it that the seller is asking upwards of 20% more than the credible value. Over time, I just start ignoring those names and don't even look at their watches.

I've noticed this too, the prices are sometimes (not always) ridiculously out of line. A very recent ad for a Jubilee bracelet with GMT endlinks purchased "brand new" states "The jubilee is for a Datejust so you will have to tight fit your 2mm Springbars and leave them attached". He wants $800. I just bought a GMT jubilee bracelet from Rolex SC (Dallas) and it cost $575. Another guy wants $700+ for a NOS 1675 bezel and non-fat font insert - they are $240 from RSC Dallas.

I understand a bit of markup but I don't understand why anybody would pay 200% more than Rolex's already inflated prices.

[STEELINOX]

Excellent read, Roger...

One word, "TRF" and the trusted sellers here; you wont find a finer group of people who know customer service and the meaning, "trusted," is in their blood.

[Rickster]

Great post
I applaud your courage for your post. I felt the comments got way too personal about someone questioning a watch for sale on VRF. In fact i made a mental note not to deal with that dealer.

I am fairly new to collecting watches. I have learned lots over the past year but still need help knowing whether a piece is "all original" or not. I dont know why anyone would have a problem with that.

Dealers - What if you came to me and I sold you some Graf G5's, with tuuk fuzed blades, elastic no lines laces and a used tongue and charged $650? Dont know what im talking about? Now you know how I feel

Thanks for the post

[red1108nyc]

Great post.

I can stand low bids since it is a free market.. a bid is a bid afterall and its better than no bid. However I can not stand dealers/sellers who are dishonest, do not believe in full disclosure and does not stand by their words.

Thanks again for posting this.

Fred

[HL65]

Originally Posted by jedly1

yeah ..,.thanks marci....why not take my whole life away :)

to be blunt the problem is not the guys who do not know what they sell like the guy with the GMT yesterday .....the problem is the people who know how to play 'the system'..because always the rules are kept to ...and the trick is in the grey area or the impossible to prove area so there is only one result possible ...an argument over opinion ......

and as we both know our hobby is one of opinion not fact ... look at O&P ...i don't think two people have ever agreed on anything ....

I have to agree with you on this Jed but if I do does that disqualify your post as that would be 2 people agreeing?
To the OP- well written and thought out. I think like in anything else- one has to be very careful with who they do business with and trust. There are plenty of good people and even more bad ones out there. The more educated people can become the better armed they are to navigate through it all. It is a shame when people mislead others and make false claims and representations or do not properly disclose facts that one needs to make a good decision. Sadly - new buyers get stung the most and turned away from the vintage world when they realize what they bought wasn't what they thought they bought. It is clearly important to develop a network of trusted people to deal with not just to buy from but to get second opinions from and input prior to making decisions. So- be careful- be patient and be smart about what and who you deal with and happy hunting!

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by jedly1

If you think it is sharky on VRF ...let me assure you it is nothing compared to the real world and by comparison ( and through a lot of hard work) it is squeaky clean . If you don't believe just do a quick ebay search under vintage Rolex on ebay and have a look at the standard of stuff that is peddled on there, the blatant fakes, the lashes ups, the dogs, the watches with added papers, the fraudsters - this is the norm out there boys and girls.......sad but true.

Jed is right guys.
Where else do you buy vintage Rolex? I wanna know where I can buy safe and cheap Have any been to a watch show recently looking for vintage Rolex? Ebay, pawn shops, craigslist, newspaper, local jeweler,estate sales, etc I go all over and can tell you what I see at these places can be very scary and you have no recourse 99% of the time. If they can they will lie to you and take your money in a heartbeat most of these guys. No pictures to look at and most of the time they will not open the case back etc its sold as you see it. When you ask about it they all say I dont know anything about it this is how I got it, does it do it for you. Unfortunately this hobby is not like it was 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. Everything changed and fake parts and watches are everywhere. This has turned many off and they have left the hobby altogether.The stock market says when in doubt get out.

At the last show I was at in Munich a fellow came up to mine and Tempo's table and offered a 1655 with all papers etc to us along with his story of how Rolex just serviced it etc. You really only have a few minutes to examine it and so I told him it was a franken at best or an all out Phong fake.He got pissed and told me I dont know what the @#$% im talking about. A few tables over he stung a dealer I know for 9k euro as he thought he was getting a deal. He took the watch the next day to Rolex and they told him everything was fake except the dial and the movement. Still think forums are sharky?

[Jagatai]

This has been a great thread. I trust a handful of guys and so far they have steered me in the right direction. I feel that the quality of this discussion is excellent.

[Yazo]

Wow... what an eye opener....seriously thank you for posting this!!!

[psv]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Jed is right guys.
Where else do you buy vintage Rolex? I wanna know where I can buy safe and cheap Have any been to a watch show recently looking for vintage Rolex? Ebay, pawn shops, craigslist, newspaper, local jeweler,estate sales, etc I go all over and can tell you what I see at these places can be very scary and you have no recourse 99% of the time. If they can they will lie to you and take your money in a heartbeat most of these guys. No pictures to look at and most of the time they will not open the case back etc its sold as you see it. When you ask about it they all say I dont know anything about it this is how I got it, does it do it for you. Unfortunately this hobby is not like it was 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. Everything changed and fake parts and watches are everywhere. This has turned many off and they have left the hobby altogether.The stock market says when in doubt get out.
At the last show I was at in Munich a fellow came up to mine and Tempo's table and offered a 1655 with all papers etc to us along with his story of how Rolex just serviced it etc. You really only have a few minutes to examine it and so I told him it was a franken at best or an all out Phong fake.He got pissed and as usual told me I dont know what the @#$% im talking about. A few tables over he stung a dealer I know for 9k euro as he thought he was getting a deal. Still think forums are sharky?

Well, do you really have recourse on VRF? I have a buddy who bought a 1665 from a well known VRF seller (operates on other places as well) and it was not as describes/what he expected but that individual refused to take it back! Then he had to spend serious money to swap parts out to make it all match.

It is a shark tank, the responsibility of course lies with the buyer, but if certain very respectable sellers started giving better descriptions I think other would be forced to follow.