Thoughts on this 1675?

[greekbum]

Well wanting to see for myself I found that the 3 watches I have from 3.2-3.6 million sold in the USA box sets I have are in french and filled out from the jewelery store and I even have original sales receipts for them. I have had these since before it was worth faking so they are 100%. I posted a pick of a 400xxxx and it is USA.

[springer]

I've had a little experience with papers thru the years, and while I agree and disagree with some of the comments here, my observations are:

The early 1970's and up warranty paper did not have a water mark at first and was added sometime after they began printing them. I have seen French guarantee papers from USA jewelers/dealers but it is very, very rare. Who knows where a USA dealer obtained a Rolex with a French warranty paper, but more than likely it was from a dealer overseas. I have seen more French warranty papers issued thru the US PX exchange than from dealers. Dealers did have blank warranty papers at their disposal, as it was just a WARRANTY PAPER! While most contained punched serial numbers, some were hand written and some were typed. No big deal here. Dealers can still have warranty cards reissued today, but they have to go thru Rolex to have the card re-issued. Dealers now do not stock or have at their disposal, blank warranty cards.

As far as watches purchased in Switzerland, since they speak French and German, warranty papers in Switzerland could be French or English. This is not a mystery either.

Now, back to this GMT. When I see a French warranty paper with a USA band, that was not issued thru the US PX exchange, it is a red flag to me. Not a major red flag here, but still something to consider. Another thing I see quite often is a vintage watch for sale that has a Swiss band, French warranty paper and a USA made box. When I see this, it usually tells me that something, or someone has been piecing together parts/accessories etc. Is it a deal breaker, maybe, maybe not. It becomes a deal breaker to me when the seller's answers to my questions are not possible for this combination.

[jedly1]

I have seen French guarantee papers from USA jewelers/dealers but it is very, very rare. Who knows where a USA dealer obtained a Rolex



I am away from home so can't access my picture files .... But off the top of my head I can't recall ever seeing a 3 million serial, usa supplied one piece paper in anything other than French .....Do you have a pic of such a thing ... I am happy to be wrong.

[cruvon]

My red subs a 3.8 mill and has the chrono papers in French. Here's the papers link http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=180175&page=3
Any way to tell if the watch was originally from the US or elsewhere? I don't have the sales receipt. Purchased it recently from the US though so assuming was purchased by it's original owner in the US though could have been imported in. The accompanying card is in English and so is the booklet. Btw was US English used in US papers or was it always UK English?

This link has the watermark pictures
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=186510

[springer]

Beginning around 1969, in the USA and from what I have found in my research, was a transitional period for the guarantee papers. Below are pics of a guarantee booklet for a 311XXXX GMT. There is no guarantee "paper" with this watch, but just the guarantee booklet. I have seen these guarantee booklets with other Rolexes as well. I can't say for sure it came with a guarantee paper, but I see no reason why it would since the guarantee is expressly written in the booklet. I don't know how long these were issued, but I would guess just a couple of years. I've really never kept a record of every warranty paper that I've ever seen, so I can't say for sure that there was never an early 1970's warranty "paper" in English. Good luck in your research Jed!

[jedly1]

well here we go....a quick half hour raid of Andrew and Erics archives (being USA base seller i figure they have the biggest number of USA watches)...

these i believe highlight what is considered the progression .....and again i say it is perfectly normal for French papers in the 3 million serial range ...i would find it very odd if there were English ones in this serial range....

before about 2.5 million (i.e. the end of the 60's and 1970) ...things are a bit of a mess.. nearly all two part papers, a guarantee of some sort and on chrono models a chrono cert of some sort ....different markets with lots of different combos

BUT getting into the 70's as our focus as that is what is under discussion ....70-71 --72 ...two part punched papers in french ......to the end of 2 million serialsand some 3.0..;









from around the end of 2 million serial numbers 2.9 ??) Rolex changes to one part papers ...combining chronometer paper and guarantee into one document ...in specific Rolex USA uses french written papers also for 3 right up to early 4 million million serial number watches covering approximately 1971/2/3/4














http://newturfers.com/bin/mwf/topic_...=and#pid456785



During the 3 million serial Rolex USA , for whatever reason seem to also also tried something else...only in 3million serials...maybe for replacements they lost , who knows...these papers usually freak people out a bit and take a bit of explaining but there are far too many of them attached to perfectly honest original owner watches to be anything other than correct ...NOTE these are also french !!





around the start of 4 million lets say 1974/5..... Rolex USA switches to a one part paper in the english language, marked rolex watch Co USA...and from here until about 7 million serial numbers continues to use this papers with punched numbers.






maybe from as early as 6 million around the start of the 80's Rolex USA switches to using typed serial, with typed dealer details....and continues using this all the way through the 80's and nineties....

[cruvon]

Whew Jed, what a way to spend a Sunday, thanks for that extensive paperwork writeup:)

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by springer

Beginning around 1969, in the USA and from what I have found in my research, was a transitional period for the guarantee papers. Below are pics of a guarantee booklet for a 311XXXX GMT. There is no guarantee "paper" with this watch, but just the guarantee booklet. I have seen these guarantee booklets with other Rolexes as well. I can't say for sure it came with a guarantee paper, but I see no reason why it would since the guarantee is expressly written in the booklet. I don't know how long these were issued, but I would guess just a couple of years. I've really never kept a record of every warranty paper that I've ever seen, so I can't say for sure that there was never an early 1970's warranty "paper" in English. Good luck in your research Jed!

i have to say I would be very suspicious of that type of guarantee booklet being with a watch with a 3 million serial...they are usually associated (forgetting date as it confuses the issue a bit) with watches in the low two millions ...so spread that out to late 1 millions and mid to late 2 millions ....and thats pushing it and mostly only seen them with non chronometer rated watches especially cosmographs. ...and as they are readily available to buy and be filled in as they are usually typed or written you need to be cautious IMHO ..though you do see the odd punched one.....

[KDA]

Originally Posted by jedly1

i have to say I would be very suspicious of that type of guarantee booklet being with a watch with a 3 million serial...they are usually associated (forgetting date as it confuses the issue a bit) with watches in the low two millions ...so spread that out to late 1 millions and mid to late 2 millions ....and thats pushing it and mostly only seen them with non chronometer rated watches especially cosmographs. ...and as they are readily available to buy and be filled in as they are usually typed or written you need to be cautious IMHO ..though you do see the odd punched one.....

Here is mine (of the same kind) from a 5513 with a 1968 IV caseback. Would be interested to see a few others for comparison.

[KDA]

Check out this link too - I think you will all find it very interesting

http://www.rolexephemera.com/sub-Guarantees.htm

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by jedly1

well here we go....a quick half hour raid of Andrew and Erics archives (being USA base seller i figure they have the biggest number of USA watches)...

these i believe highlight what is considered the progression .....and again i say it is perfectly normal for French papers in the 3 million serial range ...i would find it very odd if there were English ones in this serial range....

before about 2.5 million (i.e. the end of the 60's and 1970) ...things are a bit of a mess.. nearly all two part papers, a guarantee of some sort and on chrono models a chrono cert of some sort ....different markets with lots of different combos

BUT getting into the 70's as our focus as that is what is under discussion ....70-71 --72 ...two part punched papers in french ......to the end of 2 million serialsand some 3.0..;









from around the end of 2 million serial numbers 2.9 ??) Rolex changes to one part papers ...combining chronometer paper and guarantee into one document ...in specific Rolex USA uses french written papers also for 3 right up to early 4 million million serial number watches covering approximately 1971/2/3/4














http://newturfers.com/bin/mwf/topic_...=and#pid456785



During the 3 million serial Rolex USA , for whatever reason seem to also also tried something else...only in 3million serials...maybe for replacements they lost , who knows...these papers usually freak people out a bit and take a bit of explaining but there are far too many of them attached to perfectly honest original owner watches to be anything other than correct ...NOTE these are also french !!





around the start of 4 million lets say 1974/5..... Rolex USA switches to a one part paper in the english language, marked rolex watch Co USA...and from here until about 7 million serial numbers continues to use this papers with punched numbers.






maybe from as early as 6 million around the start of the 80's Rolex USA switches to using typed serial, with typed dealer details....and continues using this all the way through the 80's and nineties....

Err Buddy Jedly...this is evidently why Orchi said in a previous posting...
that you can be likable...

Thanks very much for sharing...

This last pic showing the COSC certificate of a 16550 Explorer II S/Nos. 9,323,xxx...
is very interesting...
The watch has a unique combination of Dial + Band...
very nice...n 100% Original from Factory...

[springer]

Jedly, here is a chronometer certificate you missed. 28XXXXX serial number which is a "tick" away from 1970. The pics present the front and back which is a punched serial number. I have trouble comprehending that Rolex issued English and French "papers" for many years then around 1970 discontinued the English "papers" and went to strictly French versions, and then a few years later, went to the English and French papers again. Although you made a nice presentation, from the million or so watches produced during that time frame, I do not have anything in my library or at my disposal to indicate otherwise. You might be on to something!

[Beaumont Miller II]

This is great information. Jed thanks for taking the time and effort to post such extensive material on the issue of correct papers.

[jedly1]

yes for sure...there is this odd one you show, from USA market moslty ... i would categorise it as one of the ones from the 70 and before odd variations of two part sets that i did not go into - also like the UK and other English speaking markets there was a two part set with guarantee in English, before it reverted to the all french...maybe Geneva were just centralising control who knows.I agree whole heartedly that it seems illogical...but hey its Rolex we are talking here :):):)..

...and here it is also particularly important to remember that 70-71-72 serial numbers are all over the place more so than at any other time....so sometimes when you talk serials they fall out of sync...and sometimes when you convert them to a time line that also falls out of sync...firstly because there is a big disparity between what people date a serial number to using the older compiled tables, compared to the newer more accurate refined ones...and secondly because as i mention those couple of years ( a pet project of mine as a 71 baby - at one time all the watches i bought were 71)....are really like someone in the stores knocked the shelves over and jumbled the boxes of cases up)...so you get

2.5 from 71..../yet some 2.8 from 7o...you get 2.6 from 69 and from 71...you get 2.7 with 70-71-and even 72 backs....

....and then of course from model it changes also ...explorer 1's are notorious for being 'off' on their serials compared to subs ...


but yes...this as a sample of all the 3 million serials sold in USA is not all of them...as well as being something 'known' and discussed and accepted by dealers and collectors as 'accepted wisdom, in this pictorial it is ALL of the 3 million USA supplied pieces as sold by two of the USA most trusted and highly regarded dealers, both with excellent archives which for me represent an excellent and honest cross section to display the point ...and neither of them in their archives has a watch that presents differently.....so i would say these are the norm....and i would suggest it would be the opposite of what you originally said, that in fact to find a watch from the first half of the 70's with English papers would be very rare.....

BTW ....I doubt impossible because i know for sure at least some of the later typed USA style papers have been available and people have been stupid enough to try and pass them off as correct for earlier serials......

[Mosco]

Just to establish the worth of this piece, I wanted to mention how it did on the open market (did not sell here, so I don't believe any rules are being broken).

Following Orchi's advice, I decided to part the watch out. The box fetched $200, papers set was another $300, rivet bracelet $300, dial $700, crown $200, crystal $50 and case/movement $2000.


No, just kidding. It sold on an open market as a complete set to a reputable collector from Hong Kong for $7000. Hope this helps for comparing actual market prices.

[Michael M.]

Originally Posted by Mosco

Just to establish the worth of this piece, I wanted to mention how it did on the open market (did not sell here, so I don't believe any rules are being broken).

Following Orchi's advice, I decided to part the watch out. The box fetched $200, papers set was another $300, rivet bracelet $300, dial $700, crown $200, crystal $50 and case/movement $2000.


No, just kidding. It sold on an open market as a complete set to a reputable collector from Hong Kong for $7000. Hope this helps for comparing actual market prices.

You had me scared there for a moment

[P7K3]

I have a 16753 that I purchased new in 1982 & it has the punched serial numbers, French warrantee & translation booklet.

[Yeager]

Jed,


Wow...great Writeup and pics...

[Mosco]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

You had me scared there for a moment

Sorry Michael