Papers from my service 25 years ago - Provenance?

[TimeLord2]

Hi all, these are two sets of service papers for my watch that I had done in 1995 and 1989, respectively. My question for the experts is this in several parts...
I do not have the original box or papers for this watch. However, I did get it serviced years ago at a place in Los Angeles on Bundy Drive, which was listed as a Rolex Service Center, proprietor Walter Gooden Jr. First of all, disclaimer, I do not want to sell the watch but I would like to determine if this limited documentation does anything to support it being authentic Rolex at the very least. It does have a Tiffany dial so that is where the difficulties begin. And end I suppose... And, no I have not service the watch recently, although that is in the near future. All comments welcome and appreciated. Well maybe not that last part, we'll see. You Savages!

[interestedwatcher]

Nice watch, got more pictures?

The papers and matching serials etc will help for sure, but they aren't the be all and end all.

[TimeLord2]

More pics...

[Dan S]

Fun to see the papers, but not much value-added IMO. If you could find the original receipt from Tiffany, that would be significant.

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Fun to see the papers, but not much value-added IMO. If you could find the original receipt from Tiffany, that would be significant.

I would have to agree. That said, what if anything would this tell you about the watch and was Walter's shop the RSC at the time or just another AD that didn't sell anything and only did repairs? Thanks for the comment Dan.

I realize this will not authenticate the Tiffany stamp but does it authenticate that the watch came with a brown dial and all brown insert, which Rolex (as of 1 month ago) wanted $500 just to authenticate the actual parts before they would even consider a service. On that last part, no, I would not have it serviced there if I wanted any of the vintage parts preserved. They made it quite clear they would replace everything. And I mean everything. Given the scope, I'm not sure why they didn't just offer a discounted watch if I turned it in on the spot.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

I would have to agree. That said, what if anything would this tell you about the watch and was Walter's shop the RSC at the time or just another AD that didn't sell anything and only did repairs? Thanks for the comment Dan.

I realize this will not authenticate the Tiffany stamp but does it authenticate that the watch came with a brown dial and all brown insert, which Rolex (as of 1 month ago) wanted $500 just to authenticate the actual parts before they would even consider a service. On that last part, no, I would not have it serviced there if I wanted any of the vintage parts preserved. They made it quite clear they would replace everything. And I mean everything. Given the scope, I'm not sure why they didn't just offer a discounted watch if I turned it in on the spot.

I can't answer your questions about the shop, but either way, I don't think anyone would question that the papers are legit. With respect to the insert, the fact that it's original probably doesn't counteract the fact that it's damaged. People don't seem to care so much if the insert is original, as long as it is period-correct. The dial on the other hand ... Anything you can do to show it's legit, even old photos, would be helpful.

Personally, I agree that you should preserve the original parts and have it serviced by someone other than the RSC. I'm glad they made it clear that they were going to replace parts, and that enabled you to make a good decision.

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I can't answer your questions about the shop, but either way, I don't think anyone would question that the papers are legit. With respect to the insert, the fact that it's original probably doesn't counteract the fact that it's damaged. People don't seem to care so much if the insert is original, as long as it is period-correct. The dial on the other hand ... Anything you can do to show it's legit, even old photos, would be helpful.

Personally, I agree that you should preserve the original parts and have it serviced by someone other than the RSC. I'm glad they made it clear that they were going to replace parts, and that enabled you to make a good decision.

Thanks for the comments Dan. On your last one, yes, they made it clear. I could also tell they were not familiar with 4-digit references of their own brand. I found that very strange. A six month TRF membership ghosting the Vintage Forum should be a minimum threshold for employment. That last bit was sarcasm BTW...

[TimeLord2]

Oh, and here is the clasp. An American made 14K.

[oysterquartz17000]

Papers are good in the sense that they remove that demand from some buyers to meet at an AD to have the watch authenticated. People still do ask, but they are less inclined to do so with papers.

[powerfunk]

Isn't the silver-text all-brown insert really rare? I thought that was one of those little-known rarities, as most have yellow text. I think there's a good chance it's a service insert but I'm not sure

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[roh123]

How does it proof that the insert is correct for the model? It only proves it came to them that way that time. I am surprised that there’s no notion of the tiffany stamp. Did you own the watch back then? Did it have a tiffany stamped dial when going to service? Normally that would be mentioned even in the service papers.

[GrandCanyon]

The paperwork proves you have owned the watch since 1989 and it is an authentic Rolex - Gooden wouldn't service it if it was a fake. How original the watch is, can not be validated by this paperwork. Prior to the establishment of the RSC in Beverly Hills, CA. (2002 ?), Walter C. Gooden was an Authorized Service Center for Rolex in Los Angeles. I purchased a Rolex in 1982 and I dropped the watch and cracked the crystal, I called Rolex in New York and they referred me to Mr. Gooden. At that time Mr.Gooden only serviced Rolex/Tudor watches. Gooden was a good guy IMO, because my watch was only 2 months old he replaced the crystal for no charge. They serviced my GMT 3 times in 1987, 92 and 99. After the RSC opened he serviced other Swiss watches, including Rolex. Mr. Gooden passed away in 2009.

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by powerfunk

Isn't the silver-text all-brown insert really rare? I thought that was one of those little-known rarities, as most have yellow text. I think there's a good chance it's a service insert but I'm not sure

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The dial has never been replaced and the watch was purchased at Tiffany in Beverly Hills in teh early 70s when my Dad owned a women's clothing store a few blocks over on Bedford. The text is actually gold not silver.

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by powerfunk

Isn't the silver-text all-brown insert really rare? I thought that was one of those little-known rarities, as most have yellow text. I think there's a good chance it's a service insert but I'm not sure

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Originally Posted by roh123

How does it proof that the insert is correct for the model? It only proves it came to them that way that time. I am surprised that there’s no notion of the tiffany stamp. Did you own the watch back then? Did it have a tiffany stamped dial when going to service? Normally that would be mentioned even in the service papers.

All paper work for the watch is long gone. My dad did not care about that stuff and who knew it might be an issue in the future. Yeah, I dug the service papers up because I thought it might mention the Tiffany stamp but no. Definitive proof is not forthcoming but the real direction of this post is whether the previous service documents support the legitimacy of the watch. The issue came up when I walked into the Rolex building in Beverly Hills a few weeks back and the guy there was completely unfamiliar with a 1675, in general. He asked about the bezel overhanging the edge of the case, whether the insert was always brown, whether the dial was always brown, whether the bracelet was original, and then of course the Tiffany stamp was the last straw. I really just wanted to purchase a new brown insert and price a new rotating bezel as mine does not rotate freely and needs replacement. They would not sell me either without me first letting them send the watch to their vintage workshop in Pennsylvania at a cost of $500 to verify the initial combination of parts at sale. I suppose that is a kind of verification but again they would not be able to establish the stamp, just that it was sold by Tiffany. Seems a lot just to have them say oh the watch did come in this configuration. You would think they could look up the serial number and give, as in gratis, the information. I can't imagine any actual research has to go into the process. Made me really think F U Rolex.

[Verdi]

Unfortunately, in the old days, the watch was a normal watch that came for a service. All original, nobody paid attention to Tiffany dials because they were somehow “normal”.
Up to early 90s you could still buy a new one in the shop.

So, they did not bother to mention this on service papers. Who would have known.....years later this could have had such a big impact, value wise.

When a watch is accepted for service it is generally accepted that is all original. Paper do support authenticity but Tiffany dials have been so faked in the last years, almost everyone does not believe one is genuine without a receipt from Tiffany.

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by GrandCanyon

The paperwork proves you have owned the watch since 1989 and it is an authentic Rolex - Gooden wouldn't service it if it was a fake. How original the watch is, can not be validated by this paperwork. Prior to the establishment of the RSC in Beverly Hills, CA. (2002 ?), Walter C. Gooden was an Authorized Service Center for Rolex in Los Angeles. I purchased a Rolex in 1982 and I dropped the watch and cracked the crystal, I called Rolex in New York and they referred me to Mr. Gooden. At that time Mr.Gooden only serviced Rolex/Tudor watches. Gooden was a good guy IMO, because my watch was only 2 months old he replaced the crystal for no charge. They serviced my GMT 3 times in 1987, 92 and 99. After the RSC opened he serviced other Swiss watches, including Rolex. Mr. Gooden passed away in 2009.

Thank you! This is what i was looking for. Well that, and if Walter's boutique was the Rolex Service Center or if he was just an AD that also repaired watches. Thanks for the comments all!

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

I really just wanted to purchase a new brown insert and price a new rotating bezel as mine does not rotate freely and needs replacement.

The bezel likely just needs to be removed, cleaned, and re-installed. Often they become stiff over time from junk that gets beneath the bezel.

Many may not agree with me, but personally, I wouldn't put a service insert on that nice watch.

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by Dan S

The bezel likely just needs to be removed, cleaned, and re-installed. Often they become stiff over time from junk that gets beneath the bezel.

Many may not agree with me, but personally, I wouldn't put a service insert on that nice watch.

It has been removed and cleaned but I never did replace it even when Walter recommended a new one 25 years ago. Wish I had purchased a new one then, and kept the original of course. Beau and Edvi at LAWW also saw the watch and made an attempted to fix the bezel but that only added a few degrees of rotation. Of course, they can probably make it work if they tinker with it for a while, seems like they can fix anything! Prior to that, I took it to Geary's also in BH and their watchmaker Mario removed it cleaned it and also said it needed to be replaced to function properly. Not sure why I have become fixated on this, aside from the fact that it doesn't work properly... Thanks for the comments Dan, I do really like the current insert but to replace that one with a period correct, faded unit would be quite costly and i hear purchasing through Rolex (new) was not that expensive.

[Dan S]

Well, even aftermarket 18k GMT bezels are $500+, so it might be worth having LAWW tinker a bit.

[miamiclay]

I’m no expert, but as said above, it seems your paperwork “supports” but does not “prove” the Tiffany dial. All it proves is that it had a brown dial by 1989.

I think it’s pretty good support though, as I don’t believe Tiffany-specific dials for these were commonly being faked before 1989. The other possibilities seem much less likely.

Have you checked to see if Tiffany can get you a copy of the original sale receipt from their archives? I assume the reason that Tiffany receipts are accepted as “proof” of a Tiffany dial’s originality is that back then, Tiffany marked ALL of their Rolex dials? Otherwise, given that the sale receipt would not usually indicate how the dial was marked when new, even a Tiffany receipt wouldn’t “prove” anything about the dial.

One more thing - It might be a good idea for you to sign and notarize an affidavit to keep with the paperwork you have. The affidavit would state some facts upon your “information and belief” (that your father John Doe purchased the watch new at Tiffany located at X address, around a certain date), and others to your “personal knowledge” (that it had a brown, or even brown Tiffany-marked, dial from new or by X date [whatever you recall], that you had the ‘89 and ‘95 services done and what they did, etc.).

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by miamiclay

I’m no expert, but as said above, it seems your paperwork “supports” but does not “prove” the Tiffany dial. All it proves is that it had a brown dial by 1989.

I think it’s pretty good support though, as I don’t believe Tiffany-specific dials for these were commonly being faked before 1989. The other possibilities seem much less likely.

Have you checked to see if Tiffany can get you a copy of the original sale receipt from their archives? I assume the reason that Tiffany receipts are accepted as “proof” of a Tiffany dial’s originality is that back then, Tiffany marked ALL of their Rolex dials? Otherwise, given that the sale receipt would not usually indicate how the dial was marked when new, even a Tiffany receipt wouldn’t “prove” anything about the dial.

One more thing - It might be a good idea for you to sign and notarize an affidavit to keep with the paperwork you have. The affidavit would state some facts upon your “information and belief” (that your father John Doe purchased the watch new at Tiffany located at X address, around a certain date), and others to your “personal knowledge” (that it had a brown, or even brown Tiffany-marked, dial from new or by X date [whatever you recall], that you had the ‘89 and ‘95 services done and what they did, etc.).

Thank you, I appreciate the advice. I know without the receipt there will always be a question. My father is still alive so he could provide more information, and I did ask him about the watch and said he was very specific about insisting on one with the Tiffany stamp on it. I did try Tiffany and Co. in BH and they only keep records up to 15 years old. So no help there. The door man suggested I get in touch with the HQ in NY, which I did, again without success. My Dad seems to have lost all pics from the past over the course of a few moves, hopefully my sister has a pic with him wearing it and maybe a pic of the store front on Bedford.

Thank you all for commenting. And if anyone is wondering, no this is not a (fishing expedition) precursor to selling, or a first look before the auction. You will not see this listed for sale. Anywhere. Anytime. Keeping it!

However, I am curious if anyone has ever utilized Rolex services for appraisal and authentication? Anybody?

[miamiclay]

With your father still available, definitely have him sign an affidavit (preferably on the back of a large, clear color photo of the watch), because he is the only person who can state with personal knowledge that he bought the photographed watch new, with this dial, from X Tiffany location, on about Y date. It’s not the same as a Tiffany receipt of course, but it’s better than nothing.

I don’t know about him insisting on a Tiffany marked dial because, at that time, I am not certain Tiffany sold Rolexes without their name on them.

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by miamiclay

With your father still available, definitely have him sign an affidavit (preferably on the back of a large, clear color photo of the watch), because he is the only person who can state with personal knowledge that he bought the photographed watch new, with this dial, from X Tiffany location, on about Y date. It’s not the same as a Tiffany receipt of course, but it’s better than nothing.

I don’t know about him insisting on a Tiffany marked dial because, at that time, I am not certain Tiffany sold Rolexes without their name on them.

I did ask the same question because that struck me as odd too, when he used that exact wording, "insisted". He said they offered Rolex without the stamp but told the sales person that he wanted one with Tiffany on the dial. I really appreciate your recommendations and comments.

[Sherbie]

Pls feel free to tell me to get back in my box, but have you tried to press the bezel down with 4 fingers and then rotating it?

Pretty sure these models had the locking mechanism on them


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[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by Sherbie

Pls feel free to tell me to get back in my box, but have you tried to press the bezel down with 4 fingers and then rotating it?

Pretty sure these models had the locking mechanism on them


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Thank you for the suggestion but it's definitely worn out. Even using the special Rolex tool for bezels.

[onthedial]

Re: Walter Gooden
Here’s an advert from the mid-90s

————
IG: @onthedial


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[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by onthedial

Re: Walter Gooden
Here’s an advert from the mid-90s

————
IG: @onthedial


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Nice find!

[77T]

I know you have a special watch there and the desire to learn as much as possible.

Just my 2¢: nothing you mentioned will convince a skeptical collector, but the rest of us immensely appreciate seeing that watch.




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[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by 77T

I know you have a special watch there and the desire to learn as much as possible.

Just my 2¢: nothing you mentioned will convince a skeptical collector, but the rest of us immensely appreciate seeing that watch.




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Yes. Your 2¢ is spot on. I have only been on this forum for about 8 months but that point has been driven home from many threads. i don't plan on selling it but thought it would be nice to put together some documentation for whichever of my 3 kids ends up with this. I'm quite happy to get everybody's opinion and suggestions as that is why I joined. Honestly, I am obsessed with this forum and quite amazed at the depth of knowledge here. I have added a few more pics just for the hell of it. Oh and in case you are wondering why the bracelet looks so good, I had it Rolli-worked at the beginning of the year. Still not perfect but it was quite far gone and they did a great job. Very happy with what they did.

[77T]

I noticed how nice the RolexUSA bracelet looked and now understand better with your before & after pics.




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