The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX


Go Back   Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum > Other (non-Rolex) Watch Topics > Patek Philippe Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 27 July 2017, 05:24 AM   #1
yessir69
2024 Pledge Member
 
yessir69's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Real Name: Kevin
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 3,200
Icon1 Article questioning Patek's reputation

Our friend the Watch Snob wrote an interesting article on Patek.

http://www.askmen.com/fashion/mens-w...e-watches.html

There have been some scattered criticisms on this forum regarding quality control, service time, and whether some of the newer models are just a money grab. Having owned four Pateks, I agree with a lot of what he says. It's not a brand I'm interested in any more because of some (not all) of the points raised in this article.

What do you guys think?

yessir69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 06:01 AM   #2
tavv160
"TRF" Member
 
tavv160's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Real Name: Tony
Location: UK
Watch: AP, Rolex, JLC...
Posts: 631
Questioning Patek's reputation is a bit far for me, but I have to agree on the point of the Pilot Calatrava. It is one of the most uninspiring watches I have seen for a long time, something I would expect to roll out of the Longines or Baume & Mercier factory, not PP. Luckily only 600 of them will be made.

Also, not a fan of the increased size on the platinum Nautilus chrono & blue Aquanaut. But then again, they are a company and must make money by selling what consumers are willing to pay for. I guess there is a good market for larger size watches.
__________________
Kind Regards, Tony.
tavv160 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 06:14 AM   #3
lapince
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Mars
Watch: 5712
Posts: 11,509
Pretty happy with my 3 simple sport models, 5711/12, 5167R, I think they have an incredible selection of different types to please anyone. About prices yes they have hugely raised prices, someone tell me if I am wrong but remember the 3712 being launched in 2005 for 13-15k. Not all their watches keep their value as we have seen them n a few models, 5960p grey and 1A being the 2 in my mind, but you can't get it all right. For the 40th editions they were obliged under public opinions and expectations on forums to do something, money grab not sure. Are they perfect? No, QC and service have serious defects compared to other brands, but overall I still think it's a fantastic brand.
lapince is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 07:16 AM   #4
Socal to az
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 791
Interesting article. Everything they attribute as problems of patek - I mean look at the other manufacturers. AP for example- I sold all mine. Too many issues. And talk about a money grab- who wants a limited edition Arnold or a Shaq.

Despite their issues, Patek still reigns supreme. i especially love the trend towards more 42mm watches. Good on them for adding a modern element to some of their pieces.
Socal to az is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 07:30 AM   #5
HL65
TRF Moderator & 2024 Patron
 
HL65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Real Name: Ken
Location: SW Florida
Watch: One on my wrist.
Posts: 63,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socal to az View Post
Interesting article. Everything they attribute as problems of patek - I mean look at the other manufacturers. AP for example- I sold all mine. Too many issues. And talk about a money grab- who wants a limited edition Arnold or a Shaq.

Despite their issues, Patek still reigns supreme. i especially love the trend towards more 42mm watches. Good on them for adding a modern element to some of their pieces.
I've owned roughly 20 AP's over last 15 years and never had an issue with any of mine. Also APSC blows Patek service away as well as any other manufacturer I know of. I sent my Patek 3970 in for service and got it back 9 months later. AP 3 weeks or so for service. I have had multiple issues with Patek from date sticking on 324 movement to scratch on dial. Sent watches back to fix under warranty and got them back 4 months later. Sure Patek makes great watches and I enjoy them but they have some work to do with QC and service and nobody can argue that.
__________________

SPEM SUCCESSUS ALIT
HL65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 07:45 AM   #6
martinr
"TRF" Member
 
martinr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: California
Posts: 3,097
There is also a new interview with Thierry on Timezone and he makes the point that Patek depends on their retail network and AD's and isn't considering going the boutique route, which is how it ought to be in my opinion. So that isn't a money grab. Also, I don't think larger watches are replacing the smaller ones, they're additional so if you hate the new Aquanaut you can still get the old one for example. The Pilot watch looks bad in most pictures but "luckily only 600..." depends on your point of view. If you want one and can't get one it's bad, have one it's good, don't like it then it shouldn't matter if there are 600 or six thousand. Quality control should be better and service time also.
martinr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 08:06 AM   #7
tyler1980
"TRF" Member
 
tyler1980's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Houston
Posts: 17,622
Well, i just got my first Patek this week, so if they are terrible now its probably my fault.

I thought about buying a Hublot about 10 years ago... and just by thinking about it, look at what happened to that brands reputation.

Sorry
tyler1980 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 08:07 AM   #8
Hollister
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Real Name: James
Location: UK
Watch: 114300
Posts: 1,750
My 5146G seems to have tanked. I didn't buy it as an investment, watches aren't that, but a large part of its appeal was that it would hold its value. It hasn't.

I don't believe I'll ever buy another PP, or at least certainly not a new one.
Hollister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 08:10 AM   #9
Socal to az
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by HL65 View Post
I've owned roughly 20 AP's over last 15 years and never had an issue with any of mine. Also APSC blows Patek service away as well as any other manufacturer I know of. I sent my Patek 3970 in for service and got it back 9 months later. AP 3 weeks or so for service. I have had multiple issues with Patek from date sticking on 324 movement to scratch on dial. Sent watches back to fix under warranty and got them back 4 months later. Sure Patek makes great watches and I enjoy them but they have some work to do with QC and service and nobody can argue that.
I had a Grand Prix, safari and bumblebee.
All had some issues.

I like ap but like patek better.
Socal to az is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 08:11 AM   #10
Tony64
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 2,796
I think Patek took a wrong turn when Thierry took the reins, and the glory days seem more distant with each new release.

My opinion, of course, others probably will disagree.

Tony64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 08:15 AM   #11
Hollister
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Real Name: James
Location: UK
Watch: 114300
Posts: 1,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony64 View Post
I think Patek took a wrong turn when Thierry took the reins, and the glory days seem more distant with each new release.

My opinion, of course, others probably will disagree.

Yes, I agree. The watches are now following fashion rather than defining style - larger cases, larger fonts on the dial, and dare I say it, outright bling.
Hollister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 08:59 AM   #12
Socal to az
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 791
Which is why every new piece has a wait list

10 year wait for 5524.
People salivating for the "ugly and simple" 5522
Advanced Research selling for double MSRP
Impossible to find 5711

Yeah- they are sure doing crappy and making poor decisions.
Socal to az is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 09:11 AM   #13
yoast
"TRF" Member
 
yoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: HK
Posts: 2,242
I believe Patek needs to modernize a bit faster with more inspiring designs than a bland looking time only pilots watch. The blue aqua is a step in the right direction imo.
Also, I think without the nautilus line, the brand probably wouldn't survive.
__________________
IG: @yoast.watch
https://www.instagram.com/yoast.watch/
yoast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 09:27 AM   #14
Socal to az
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by yoast View Post
Also, I think without the nautilus line, the brand probably wouldn't survive.
Socal to az is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 10:32 AM   #15
ufboy73
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: usa
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socal to az View Post
Which is why every new piece has a wait list

10 year wait for 5524.
People salivating for the "ugly and simple" 5522
Advanced Research selling for double MSRP
Impossible to find 5711

Yeah- they are sure doing crappy and making poor decisions.
to be fair, if you ration supply there will be waiting lists...

and i would imagine a brand as storied as patek could live off of good will for quite some time - doesnt mean the brand is healthy or heading in the right direction....that seemed to be the whole point of the article.
ufboy73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 10:34 AM   #16
Socal to az
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufboy73 View Post
to be fair, if you ration supply there will be waiting lists...

and i would imagine a brand as storied as patek could live off of good will for quite some time - doesnt mean the brand is healthy or heading in the right direction....that seemed to be the whole point of the article.
The people who wish for the old days of 33mm men's watches no doubt hate the direction patek is going. Those of us that prefer modern sizes and designs appreciate the addition of larger 42mm watches to the already plentiful supply of their regular smaller traditional pieces.
Socal to az is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 10:35 AM   #17
texex91
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: .
Posts: 17,898
AP and PP have issues...they are watches.

The challenge with PP comes with the service times (as we know).
texex91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 10:56 AM   #18
Vipes
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,831
Quote:
Originally Posted by yoast View Post
I believe Patek needs to modernize a bit faster with more inspiring designs than a bland looking time only pilots watch. The blue aqua is a step in the right direction imo.
Also, I think without the nautilus line, the brand probably wouldn't survive.
Patek has done pretty well before the Nautilus came along.
Vipes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 11:42 AM   #19
jon_jon
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,340
The article has several valid points, both praises for and criticisms of Patek Philippe.

Watch collectors/buyers today are very different from those from a generation ago. Just as the generation of Philippe Stern will slowly diminish, the generation of Thierry Stern will continue to grow. Patek is not abandoning the traditional Calatravas and the complications that they have always been known for. And they are not making the Nautilus their main focus either. Patek has and always will be known for their complicated watches. However their production numbers over the past 10 years has skyrocketed and this has been both a blessing and a curse. People don't have to wait to get their non-Nautilus watches. However with a surplus of new watch supply, watch prices struggle in the secondary market. And unless they can train a whole new group of watchmakers to service these watches, wait time for servicing will get longer. The use of silicium components is a way to improve watch accuracy and to potentially decrease the need for frequent servicing.

So what is the solution? Will restricting supply make things better? Instead of 60,000 pieces a year, what if they went back to only 30,000 pieces a year? What if they changed their production so that half of their watches are from the Nautilus line? No matter what they do, people will be unhappy, whether they are existing clients or potentially new clients. People want instant gratification and if they can't get the 5711/1A, they will cross shop and get an AP 15400. If Patek flooded the market with tons of 5711/1A's, all the current owners will be upset that the market price of the watch has tanked to under $20K USD.

People want exclusivity in the luxury market and Patek is definitely not like Rolex in that pretty much anyone can purchase a Rolex with a 24 month interest free financing. Patek wants consumers to understand the brand and what they produce and want the watch because it is special and not because everyone at their country club wears one. I am not criticizing Rolex as they are one of the most respected watch brands in the world, but they are not a luxury brand in the traditional sense and have become a more attainable brand for the middle class.

I still have a lot of respect for Patek Philippe, even more so after touring their factory and seeing the work they do behind the scene. But there will always be unhappy customers.

In comparing AP vs PP service times, does AP make perpetual calendar chronographs? If they do, what is the typical service time for an AP PCC?
jon_jon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 11:56 AM   #20
rebel_1
"TRF" Member
 
rebel_1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_jon View Post
The article has several valid points, both praises for and criticisms of Patek Philippe.

Watch collectors/buyers today are very different from those from a generation ago. Just as the generation of Philippe Stern will slowly diminish, the generation of Thierry Stern will continue to grow. Patek is not abandoning the traditional Calatravas and the complications that they have always been known for. And they are not making the Nautilus their main focus either. Patek has and always will be known for their complicated watches. However their production numbers over the past 10 years has skyrocketed and this has been both a blessing and a curse. People don't have to wait to get their non-Nautilus watches. However with a surplus of new watch supply, watch prices struggle in the secondary market. And unless they can train a whole new group of watchmakers to service these watches, wait time for servicing will get longer. The use of silicium components is a way to improve watch accuracy and to potentially decrease the need for frequent servicing.

So what is the solution? Will restricting supply make things better? Instead of 60,000 pieces a year, what if they went back to only 30,000 pieces a year? What if they changed their production so that half of their watches are from the Nautilus line? No matter what they do, people will be unhappy, whether they are existing clients or potentially new clients. People want instant gratification and if they can't get the 5711/1A, they will cross shop and get an AP 15400. If Patek flooded the market with tons of 5711/1A's, all the current owners will be upset that the market price of the watch has tanked to under $20K USD.

People want exclusivity in the luxury market and Patek is definitely not like Rolex in that pretty much anyone can purchase a Rolex with a 24 month interest free financing. Patek wants consumers to understand the brand and what they produce and want the watch because it is special and not because everyone at their country club wears one. I am not criticizing Rolex as they are one of the most respected watch brands in the world, but they are not a luxury brand in the traditional sense and have become a more attainable brand for the middle class.

I still have a lot of respect for Patek Philippe, even more so after touring their factory and seeing the work they do behind the scene. But there will always be unhappy customers.

In comparing AP vs PP service times, does AP make perpetual calendar chronographs? If they do, what is the typical service time for an AP PCC?
Nicely said.
__________________
Official Member: 'Perpetual 30' Vegas International GTG 2016
Official Member "WIS-CON" Las Vegas International GTG 2017
rebel_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 12:05 PM   #21
Tony64
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 2,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socal to az View Post
Which is why every new piece has a wait list

10 year wait for 5524.
People salivating for the "ugly and simple" 5522
Advanced Research selling for double MSRP
Impossible to find 5711
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufboy73 View Post
to be fair, if you ration supply there will be waiting lists...
In some countries you wait in line for toilet paper...

ufboy has it right, limiting supply to create a waitlist doesn't negate any of the criticism. It's just simple manipulation of supply less than demand. Ask yourself, if every AD had a blue nautilus for the asking, and a stainless ceramic Daytona to boot, would there be the same demand? Would there be the same furor? And markup? Fuggedaboutit. Would you even pay MSRP or would you expect your usual discount?
Tony64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 12:15 PM   #22
texasmade
"TRF" Member
 
texasmade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Real Name: Robert
Location: Lone Star State
Watch: AP RO 15400, FOIS
Posts: 2,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_jon View Post

In comparing AP vs PP service times, does AP make perpetual calendar chronographs? If they do, what is the typical service time for an AP PCC?
AP does with their grand complication RO. No idea what the service time is but I read AP says all watches in their core collection will be serviced in 21 days under warranty and 42 days if out of warranty. I don't know if a GC watch would qualify as a core collection though.
texasmade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 12:21 PM   #23
jon_jon
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasmade View Post
AP does with their grand complication RO. No idea what the service time is but I read somewhere that AP guarantees all watches will be serviced in 4-5 weeks or something like that.
That is quite a guarantee if true. I can see turnaround time of 4-5 weeks for a simple time and date watch. However I am curious what the actual turnaround time for AP to service their chronographs, perpetual calendars and PCCs.
jon_jon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 12:22 PM   #24
Socal to az
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony64 View Post
In some countries you wait in line for toilet paper...

ufboy has it right, limiting supply to create a waitlist doesn't negate any of the criticism. It's just simple manipulation of supply less than demand. Ask yourself, if every AD had a blue nautilus for the asking, and a stainless ceramic Daytona to boot, would there be the same demand? Would there be the same furor? And markup? Fuggedaboutit. Would you even pay MSRP or would you expect your usual discount?
Ferrari limits supply to create demand.

Ever try to buy a Birkin from Hermes for your wife/girlfriend? Limited supply to create demand.

Porsche GTxxx try buying one. Limited supply to create demand.

It's called smart business. Patek isn't the only one that does this.
Socal to az is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 12:23 PM   #25
Socal to az
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_jon View Post
That is quite a guarantee if true. I can see turnaround time of 4-5 weeks for a simple time and date watch. However I am curious what the actual turnaround time for AP to service their chronographs, perpetual calendars and PCCs.
My bumblebee was serviced twice for the same problem. So much for quick turnaround.
Socal to az is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 12:42 PM   #26
Tony64
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 2,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socal to az View Post
Ferrari limits supply to create demand.

Ever try to buy a Birkin from Hermes for your wife/girlfriend? Limited supply to create demand.

Porsche GTxxx try buying one. Limited supply to create demand.

It's called smart business. Patek isn't the only one that does this.
So at least we agree that the demand is artificial?
Tony64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 12:44 PM   #27
Socal to az
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony64 View Post
So at least we agree that the demand is artificial?
Demand is demand.

If people are actually buying the watches, how is that artificial? I mean do they pay for these watches with artificial money? Is Patek taking fake IOUs and then going to bill these people later when everyone agrees on the real value and demand according to you?

Patek has grown, demand has grown, profits have grown.

Are they perfect? Absolutely not. But they are still the premier watchmaker out there.
Socal to az is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 12:49 PM   #28
KarlS
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Real Name: Karl
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 5,228
To be frank PP has lots of issues. I think I don't have a smallish collection and never had a problem with Patek nor Rolex. Other brands yes. I think my Vacheron took 10 months to service. Not detracting from some of the comments I really don't regard "serious journalism" to include things like "what's your favourite hipster watch?"....
KarlS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 12:55 PM   #29
Tony64
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 2,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socal to az View Post
Ferrari limits supply to create demand.

Ever try to buy a Birkin from Hermes for your wife/girlfriend? Limited supply to create demand.

Porsche GTxxx try buying one. Limited supply to create demand.

It's called smart business. Patek isn't the only one that does this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socal to az View Post
Demand is demand.

If people are actually buying the watches, how is that artificial? I mean do they pay for these watches with artificial money? Is Patek taking fake IOUs and then going to bill these people later when everyone agrees on the real value and demand according to you?

Patek has grown, demand has grown, profits have grown.

Are they perfect? Absolutely not. But they are still the premier watchmaker out there.
I'm not disagreeing. I'm just pointing out that in each example that you gave above you say that "limited supply creates demand".

If you "create" demand then that's artificial, by my definition at least. Not saying it's not a good business model. I simply believe that genuine demand is quality driven, not supply driven.

I respect that you may feel differently.

Tony64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2017, 01:15 PM   #30
texasmade
"TRF" Member
 
texasmade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Real Name: Robert
Location: Lone Star State
Watch: AP RO 15400, FOIS
Posts: 2,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_jon View Post
That is quite a guarantee if true. I can see turnaround time of 4-5 weeks for a simple time and date watch. However I am curious what the actual turnaround time for AP to service their chronographs, perpetual calendars and PCCs.
I'm pretty sure the chronos qualify as core collection since AP sales a lot of chronos in the RO and ROO line. PC and PCC's is another story though.
texasmade is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Takuya Watches

Bobs Watches

Asset Appeal

My Watch LLC

OCWatches

DavidSW Watches

Coronet


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2024, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.