Real or fake 6262

[77T]

Originally Posted by g-boac

Question - would the original purchaser of this watch have recourse against AQ for this?

Only IF...if the buyer reads TRF or has a knowledgeable vintage watchmaker who is well versed in the manual wind Daytona’s.

I believe the answer is yes a refund is due. Because if the reliance the buyer placed on AQ’s claim of authenticity. To avoid a protracted court case, AQ should refund the buyer’s money.


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[roh123]

Originally Posted by 77T

Only IF...if the buyer reads TRF or has a knowledgeable vintage watchmaker who is well versed in the manual wind Daytona’s.

I believe the answer is yes a refund is due. Because if the reliance the buyer placed on AQ’s claim of authenticity. To avoid a protracted court case, AQ should refund the buyer’s money.


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I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the buyer actually is HQ Milton.

[btinl]

Originally Posted by roh123

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the buyer actually is HQ Milton.

So you don’t think the consignment story is true?

[77T]

Originally Posted by roh123

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the buyer actually is HQ Milton.

If true, then HQM’s statement “returned to consignor” would be false. Not worth pursuing further methinks. All hands are dirty to one extent or another in the incident.


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[roh123]

Originally Posted by 77T

If true, then HQM’s statement “returned to consignor” would be false. Not worth pursuing further methinks. All hands are dirty to one extent or another in the incident.


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No one knows but it would be even more embarrassing to have bought it. The consignee statement is convenient. Not that it makes it any less bad to market and sell.

Oh well.. Doesn’t matter at all.

[swish77]

What's even more troubling with this story is that Jose at Perezcope says he emailed HQ Milton twice with his findings/warning before ever posting on IG about the problem, but there was no response nor reaction on the HQ website, except that the price was dropped from $61.5K to $60.5K at one point.

Perhaps his communication didn't reach the right person, but that part of the story makes it sound even worse. It seems as if it took the public IG post to force a response/reaction, but maybe there's another explanation.

HQ Milton has been a longtime presence here on TRF, mainly in the sales section, via Jacek for many years, and now through Scott. And like many here, I've bought watches from them, dating back at least a decade. This is sad.

[Showcall]

you maybe able to find out via the Auction House?

[Kliminator]

Originally Posted by swish77

What's even more troubling with this story is that Jose at Perezcope says he emailed HQ Milton twice with his findings/warning before ever posting on IG about the problem, but there was no response nor reaction on the HQ website, except that the price was dropped from $61.5K to $60.5K at one point.

Perhaps his communication didn't reach the right person, but that part of the story makes it sound even worse. It seems as if it took the public IG post to force a response/reaction, but maybe there's another explanation.

HQ Milton has been a longtime presence here on TRF, mainly in the sales section, via Jacek for many years, and now through Scott. And like many here, I've bought watches from them, dating back at least a decade. This is sad.

Yeah - that is what is the tough part of this whole situation. I doubt there is going to be anything addressed on this part of the story...

To be fair, part of me thinks that these types of mistakes do happen in the watch community (and have been reported / documented time and time again). It certainly still negatively reflects on HQ Milton and unfortunate for any of the previous customers that even have a shimmer of doubt now as a result of these recent events.

[Greglaw]

The Antiquorum is a separate matter. In my State the buyer would have claims but more facts and information would be needed. The right thing to do would be to refund the buyer’s money,. If they did not there would be a number of theories for recovery.

Originally Posted by swish77

I've been saying it for years ... these auction houses (Phillips, Sothebys, Christies, and in this case, Antiquorum) are not much better than a fancy Ebay. You cannot let your guard down no matter who's selling the watch. Sure, sometimes there are great examples for sale, but you need to be so careful. Just like with every other purchase, you need to do a massive amount of homework.

I sometimes work with these auction houses in the art world, and occasionally run into the same problem. They're overwhelmed, understaffed, and often with a lack of expertise, which can lead to sloppiness. HQ Milton got burned too in this case. Big black eye.

I can't tell if this situation is getting worse with full fakes, Franken-watches, undisclosed relumes, etc .... with vintage Daytonas, GMTs, red Subs, whatever ... Or whether the community policing by experts like Jose at Perezcope is just getting better, which is great, of course.

[Greglaw]

Sorry didn’t mean to quote you meant to address the antiquorum issue.

[Haywood_Milton]

To my great irritation I have today been approached again to ask if I am involved with HQMilton.

There has never been any connection between me or any of my companies and HQMilton, nor indeed any of my extended family, their companies and HQMilton.

I have been given something of an explanation why they called their business HQM, but I was never happy that they did.

Please let no-one associate them with me or my businesses.

Insta : haywood_milton_rolex

[Tavli3]

Hayward glad you cleared that up. I was wondering the same!

Here's another article from Perezcope about another fake Daytona movement that he notified the seller about the issues and it was ignored. And then stated when exposed as the now standard excuse that it was a consignment watch. I call BS on this excuse from all parties. HQ Milton was a trusted seller. The whole point of being a trusted seller is negated if you can't spot an obvious fake. Also don't insult our intelligence with the excuse that the warning from Perexcope might have not reached the right person. Is HQ Milton that big an organization? Even if so, you would think that any underling seeing that would say hey boss you better take a look at this.

All of this is inexcusable! Trusted Sellers are not Trusted Sellers if they don't know what The F they are posting for sale on their websites. This is in addition to the complaints of inaccurate descriptions which to me were valid complaints. Fellow dealers need not rebut. I find that offensive also.

I'm concerned with the sanctity of the vintage collecting hobby and it's a disgrace that if you're not an expert of the highest caliber you can't buy anything with confidence. You fellow dealers should instead of circling the wagons should call these guys out and try to keep the hobby as honest as possible. This whole thing is disgusting.

Oh, almost forgot here's the article: https://perezcope.com/2018/10/05/fak...63-yg-3300740/

There needs to be more policing if the hobby is to survive.
Here's a watch for sale that I think the movement is fake since there is no Fabre swiss engraving on the train gear bridge.

And this one with the engraving that Perexcope has indicated on another movement was fake
https://www.chrono24.com/rolex/dayto...id13118795.htm

I'm not expert enough to say one way or another but maybe someone with more expertise could chime in for the benefit of all fellow members.

and again I don't want to hear any BS from fellow dealers sticking up for their friends like Luke Rotham, Stephane, Micheal Morgan, Michael Moran and now HQ Milton and who knows how many others. And let me be clear I have nothing against any vintage dealer only those with a lack of any morals and those that try to defend them.

[ILuvSubs]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

Hayward glad you cleared that up. I was wondering the same!

Here's another article from Perezcope about another fake Daytona movement that he notified the seller about the issues and it was ignored. And then stated when exposed as the now standard excuse that it was a consignment watch. I call BS on this excuse from all parties. HQ Milton was a trusted seller. The whole point of being a trusted seller is negated if you can't spot an obvious fake. Also don't insult our intelligence with the excuse that the warning from Perexcope might have not reached the right person. Is HQ Milton that big an organization? Even if so, you would think that any underling seeing that would say hey boss you better take a look at this.

All of this is inexcusable! Trusted Sellers are not Trusted Sellers if they don't know what The F they are posting for sale on their websites. This is in addition to the complaints of inaccurate descriptions which to me were valid complaints. Fellow dealers need not rebut. I find that offensive also.

I'm concerned with the sanctity of the vintage collecting hobby and it's a disgrace that if you're not an expert of the highest caliber you can't buy anything with confidence. You fellow dealers should instead of circling the wagons should call these guys out and try to keep the hobby as honest as possible. This whole thing is disgusting.

Oh, almost forgot here's the article: https://perezcope.com/2018/10/05/fak...63-yg-3300740/

There needs to be more policing if the hobby is to survive.
Here's a watch for sale that I think the movement is fake since there is no Fabre swiss engraving on the train gear bridge.

And this one with the engraving that Perexcope has indicated on another movement was fake
https://www.chrono24.com/rolex/dayto...id13118795.htm

I'm not expert enough to say one way or another but maybe someone with more expertise could chime in for the benefit of all fellow members.

and again I don't want to hear any BS from fellow dealers sticking up for their friends like Luke Rotham, Stephane, Micheal Morgan, Michael Moran and now HQ Milton and who knows how many others. And let me be clear I have nothing against any vintage dealer only those with a lack of any morals and those that try to defend them.

You make a good point. Greed and sharp practice is going to kill the golden goose that laid the golden egg for dealers. Enthusiasts are going to shun the vintage Rolex market if there is a real lack of confidence in the authenticity of what they are buying.

Unfortunately these sort of threads seem to be cropping up more often than not. Case in point... https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=770440

TRF members who have been on this forum longer than I have may want to chime in. Has this sort of behaviour always been going on and we just haven't really seen it or is it just a recent phenomenon because of the huge appreciation in values of all these timepieces and the greater temptation to engage in such behaviour given vintage Rolex is more mainstream than it ever has been before?

[Tavli3]

If Perezcope is as smart as I think he is he will start his own market place where he gets a cut of every watch sold and buyers like me can feel confident that he has vetted every watch. C24 only guarantees your money but in no way safe guards you from falling prey to one of these high end huksters! There's a screaming business opportunity here for the right person.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

If Perezcope is as smart as I think he is he will start his own market place where he gets a cut of every watch sold and buyers like me can feel confident that he has vetted every watch. C24 only guarantees your money but in no way safe guards you from falling prey to one of these high end huksters! There's a screaming business opportunity here for the right person.

Unfortunately, there is a fatal flaw in this idea, since once the "expert" gets a cut of the sales, he becomes a dealer, and the motivations change.

The only way this would work is if buyer and/or seller were willing to pay a non-refundable authentication fee regardless of whether or not the sale went through. And it would have to be a significant fee to make it worth a true expert's time.

As you know, this type of service really doesn't exist in the vintage watch world, and we can all probably figure out why it doesn't.

[southtexas]

Is Perezcope the guy that Orchi accused of faking vintage Panerai on a grand scale?


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[btinl]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Is Perezcope the guy that Orchi accused of faking vintage Panerai on a grand scale?


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yes

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by btinl

yes

Popcorn......

[springer]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Is Perezcope the guy that Orchi accused of faking vintage Panerai on a grand scale?


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You nailed it grasshopper. Those were some pretty nasty threads on Perezcope.

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by springer

You nailed it grasshopper. Those were some pretty nasty threads on Perezcope.

Do the nasty threads change in any way the matter discussed here?
Perezcope discovered and exposed a fake/franken watch that a dealer was going to sell for a lot of dough.....to, possibly, a member of our forum.
We should be rather thankful.

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

And this one with the engraving that Perexcope has indicated on another movement was fake
https://www.chrono24.com/rolex/dayto...id13118795.htm

Imo this watch is alright and absolutely consistend with other 6262 from the same batch. All early 6262s had 6239 stamped casebacks and the first version of the caliber 727 with wide caliber stamp (7 2 7). Case and reference number engravings between the lugs are spot on for this batch.


Cheers

Jose

[Andad]

I am doing my best to make sense of all this?

[roh123]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Is Perezcope the guy that Orchi accused of faking vintage Panerai on a grand scale?


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Orchi normally protects AQ when their shady business is discussed. Has he mentioned this mess?

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Is Perezcope the guy that Orchi accused of faking vintage Panerai on a grand scale?

Those accusations were false, as 90% of the other claims made by said individual. It's simple math. Where are all the fakes I was accused of selling? Where are all the people I was accused of scamming? None has ever come forward. How so?

The truth is the accuser was working hand in hand with a known Italian counterfeiter named Rinaldi in an attempt to discredit me. What a coincidence that the attacks only started after I exposed a qualified counterfeit belonging to Rinaldi offered at Antiquorum Hong Kong...

And let's not forget his relentless attempts to legitimize Rinaldi's obvious fakes.

Wanna see some of the fakes he tried to "legalize"? -> https://perezcope.com/2018/08/13/the...cles-part-one/

Originally Posted by roh123

Orchi normally protects AQ when their shady business is discussed. Has he mentioned this mess?

Calling out everybody but defending the undefendable.


Cheers

Jose

[Tavli3]

Jose, thanks for clearing up that Orchi accusation business. Very relieved to hear it actually otherwise good God it would mean we had an expert fraudster calling out other fraudsters. Was losing my mind for a bit there.

Also thanks for your opinion on the 727 movement. Can I ask one other question, I'm seeing many 727's without the swiss made fabre suisse engraving, is that normal or a fake issue??

Thanks again

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

I'm seeing many 727's without the swiss made fabre suisse engraving, is that normal or a fake issue??

That's normal. At some point around case number 5.0 million, Rolex stopped applying the "Swiss Made Fabr. Suisse" engravings. These later movements have also a slightly different barrel bridge.


Cheers

Jose

[Tavli3]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

That's normal. At some point around case number 5.0 million, Rolex stopped applying the "Swiss Made Fabr. Suisse" engravings. These later movements have also a slightly different barrel bridge.


Cheers

Jose

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by roh123

Orchi normally protects AQ when their shady business is discussed. Has he mentioned this mess?

Orchi is pretty detestable. Thankfully my IG feed is free of his various usernames’ posts and has been for quite some time. I lost track of the saga.


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[gtnator]

This hobby is getting harder.


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[swish77]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

I don't want to hear any BS from fellow dealers sticking up for their friends like Luke Rotham, Stephane, Micheal Morgan, Michael Moran and now HQ Milton and who knows how many others. And let me be clear I have nothing against any vintage dealer only those with a lack of any morals and those that try to defend them.

Some good points in your post, but I didn't read anyone sticking up for the dealers you mention. Everything I've read is pretty damning. Did I miss something?