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Old 9 July 2020, 09:27 PM   #1
rockdrock
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AP Code 11.59: Purple

I know, I know, this watch gets a lot of hate. This time around this dial configurations is spectacular. Yes, purple is my fav color but the contrast with the red gold is unique. It is a loud watch too, I can see it would be hard to wear but don’t care, I really like it. I am a fan of the case but last year’s debut was flat as the dials were so bland. To me, not anymore.

Anyone know if these are getting stupid waitlists?





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Old 9 July 2020, 09:30 PM   #2
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I know, I know, this watch gets a lot of hate. This time around this dial configurations is spectacular. Yes, purple is my fav color but the contrast with the red gold is unique. It is a loud watch too, I can see it would be hard to wear but don’t care, I really like it. I am a fan of the case but last year’s debut was flat as the dials were so bland. To me, not anymore.

Anyone know if these are getting stupid waitlists?





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This one would be fairly easy to get. They had one readily available for anyone who wants to pick it up last time I visited the AD in MBS Singapore.

Good luck with your purchase!


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Old 9 July 2020, 09:42 PM   #3
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Don't think this particular reference is hard to get. Would be a great way to establish a relationship with the boutique too
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Old 9 July 2020, 09:45 PM   #4
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I must say I quite liked the 1159 from the getgo, but found it a bit too tame for its case and price. These new dials, although a bit expediently ripped together from Moser and the VC overseas do give the watch the „pop“ it was lacking. I am yet to see them in person and still believe 27k is a bit steep for those movements (just because it improves on what AP would have given you in the 3120, doesn’t bring it up to par with a 5100 or a 324 in terms of finishing). Nonetheless, I believe that this watch is finally coming into its own and might be inclined to get one, should the price be right.
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Old 9 July 2020, 10:12 PM   #5
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I am yet to see them in person and still believe 27k is a bit steep for those movements (just because it improves on what AP would have given you in the 3120, doesn’t bring it up to par with a 5100 or a 324 in terms of finishing).
Of all the things the code 11:59 has been criticized for, this one feels quite odd.


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Old 9 July 2020, 10:17 PM   #6
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If you really like, I’d suggest going to the boutique and asking now. Despite a massive improvement (which I really like) I think the community group think will prevail for the near term and demand won’t be as high as a steel 15500


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Old 9 July 2020, 10:34 PM   #7
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I think it pretty cool to add to a collection. It would definitely be a one-off. I like it. Doubt there is a waitlist for any code piece.
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Old 9 July 2020, 10:37 PM   #8
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I love the purple as well.
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Old 10 July 2020, 12:59 AM   #9
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Of all the things the code 11:59 has been criticized for, this one feels quite odd.


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Why? You get objectively finer finished movements in both the 5227 and Vacheron Traditionelle Auto for the exact same money, if not less (as both these watches can be negotiated whereas the AP boutique will likely not be amenable to arrangements on the price). Aside from its admittedly pretty rotor, the AP’s movement is just about as impressive as the machine that applied its finish, while both Genevean competitors will have bridges angled by hand held touret and hand guided Geneva stripes on their 324 and the 2450 or 5100 series movements. So as much as I like the 1159, the value proposition irks me a bit and I feel that while that’s possibly not the most common criticism, it might well be one of the more substantive ones.
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Old 10 July 2020, 01:20 AM   #10
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This watch is so not for me, but I think it's really gorgeous. If you can pull it off, AND you genuinely like it, by all means go for it. Don't let the Code hate dictate your decision.
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Old 10 July 2020, 01:22 AM   #11
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Sorry still a piece of junk dressed in purple - IMHO.
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Old 10 July 2020, 01:28 AM   #12
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Those hands just kill it. Flat, formless, featureless. Put a set of dauphine or alphas on there and it'd be an instant improvement.
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Old 10 July 2020, 01:29 AM   #13
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Seems more and more purple watches coming out...why not I guess...just not for me
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Old 10 July 2020, 04:08 AM   #14
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Sorry still a piece of junk dressed in purple - IMHO.
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Old 10 July 2020, 04:45 AM   #15
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the AP’s movement is just about as impressive as the machine that applied its finish, while both Genevean competitors will have bridges angled by hand held touret and hand guided Geneva stripes on their 324 and the 2450 or 5100 series movements. So as much as I like the 1159, the value proposition irks me a bit and I feel that while that’s possibly not the most common criticism, it might well be one of the more substantive ones.
This is a really good point. I have not thought about it in this way and absolutely agree. Working on the price and might get it at $24K even with no tax. Even then, getting a VC Overseas might be the smarter idea. If only it came in purple.


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Old 10 July 2020, 04:49 AM   #16
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Sorry still a piece of junk dressed in purple - IMHO.

Hahaha! Thanks APAP. I appreciate the honesty. Just curious, what of the watch misses out for you?


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Old 10 July 2020, 05:27 AM   #17
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This is a really good point. I have not thought about it in this way and absolutely agree. Working on the price and might get it at $24K even with no tax. Even then, getting a VC Overseas might be the smarter idea. If only it came in purple.


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The overseas you get in the high teens is not a gold watch though to be fair. The gold one is significantly more expensive. But going off something like the traditionelle automatic with its 1120 (possibly the best version of the JLC 920) or the patrimony self winding with it’s beautiful 2450, 27-28k gets you quite something elsewhere. And the same goes for the 5227, which while seemingly simple is a beauty of a watch not just under, but also because of its half hunter case. Last but not least, the 6006 must also be considered at this price point. It may have controversial looks (not unlike the 1159), but its 240 movement is hard to argue with.

So you really have a series of fantastic options to underpin your pricing argument. Hope you will be successful and post images soon
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Old 10 July 2020, 12:31 PM   #18
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Why? You get objectively finer finished movements in both the 5227 and Vacheron Traditionelle Auto for the exact same money, if not less (as both these watches can be negotiated whereas the AP boutique will likely not be amenable to arrangements on the price). Aside from its admittedly pretty rotor, the AP’s movement is just about as impressive as the machine that applied its finish, while both Genevean competitors will have bridges angled by hand held touret and hand guided Geneva stripes on their 324 and the 2450 or 5100 series movements. So as much as I like the 1159, the value proposition irks me a bit and I feel that while that’s possibly not the most common criticism, it might well be one of the more substantive ones.
When it comes to fine finishing, the caliber 4302 from AP is really top notch
and on par (if not better) than comparable movements as you mention. From a chronometry perspective the 4302 movement is arguably technically superior with a longer power reserve and better accuracy.

Although it obviously plays a role, the value of a watch can not be judged by the sum of the craftsmanship and technical specifications alone. Applying the same logic, I really wonder what you believe that a Royal Oak Jumbo featuring the decades old caliber 2121 is worth?
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Old 10 July 2020, 12:33 PM   #19
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Would be a great way to establish a relationship with the boutique too

These types of posts just rub me. So we spend that sort of money on a watch we don't want to "establish a relationship"? Ugh.....




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Old 10 July 2020, 01:00 PM   #20
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These types of posts just rub me. So we spend that sort of money on a watch we don't want to "establish a relationship"? Ugh.....




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Well, in this particular case, the OP likes the watch. So it is a good situation for him.

I agree with you. For the rest of us, the idea of having to buy watches we don't really want just to get an "allocation" is annoying... And, I personally won't pay the grey market premium.
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Old 10 July 2020, 01:12 PM   #21
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These types of posts just rub me. So we spend that sort of money on a watch we don't want to "establish a relationship"? Ugh.....




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Sadly this is the environment we live in. Hope it changes in the near future. At least AP isnt as bad as Rolex where it can be impossible to get some of the SS models as a first purchase, which is quite ironic as the 'entry level' watches are the hard to get ones.

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Old 10 July 2020, 02:40 PM   #22
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Why? You get objectively finer finished movements in both the 5227 and Vacheron Traditionelle Auto for the exact same money, if not less (as both these watches can be negotiated whereas the AP boutique will likely not be amenable to arrangements on the price). Aside from its admittedly pretty rotor, the AP’s movement is just about as impressive as the machine that applied its finish, while both Genevean competitors will have bridges angled by hand held touret and hand guided Geneva stripes on their 324 and the 2450 or 5100 series movements.
I’ve seen you mention this in a few posts. I’m genuinely curious about how you determined that the 4302 is not as well finished as movements you mentioned from VC and Patek. I have the 4302 movement in an 15500 and it looks just as well finished as any VC or Patek movement I’ve seen, though admittedly, I’m no expert when it comes to movement finishing. But the reviews I’ve read seem to universally say the movement is well-finished. Also, where did you read or hear that the finishing on the 4302 movement (or any AP movement) is done by machine?

I assumed the finishing of AP movements is done similar to brands like Patek, VC, and Lange. That is, by “hand” but including the use and machines for certain things, like Geneva strip. My understanding is that true, traditional “hand finishing” is very rare these days and generally only found in very low-production watches that are much more expensive than a standard time/date watch from AP, VC, or PP.
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Old 10 July 2020, 03:25 PM   #23
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When it comes to fine finishing, the caliber 4302 from AP is really top notch
and on par (if not better) than comparable movements as you mention. From a chronometry perspective the 4302 movement is arguably technically superior with a longer power reserve and better accuracy.

Although it obviously plays a role, the value of a watch can not be judged by the sum of the craftsmanship and technical specifications alone. Applying the same logic, I really wonder what you believe that a Royal Oak Jumbo featuring the decades old caliber 2121 is worth?
I‘m not entirely sure I’m reading this right. Are you stating that something that is machine made in a significantly higher proportion than other offerings is somehow superior even though the value system of fine watchmaking largely relies on how beautifully something is hand finished?

Im not saying the 4302 is a bad movement, far from it, but the harsh angles of the diamond cutter are not remotely as pretty as the hand applied (if mechanically assisted) anglage of equivalents Patek and VC offerings, and when you turn the bridges over, the (non existent) finish on the underside reminds you more of a Hamilton Khaki than a holy trinity watch.
While the power reserve is indeed a nice to have, the movement is also a rather portly affair to enable that. It’s even thicker and wider than a VC 5100, which has equivalent power reserve for any practical purposes (and actually proper finishing).

So with all due respect, I stand by my comment. Of course finishing is not everything, but in a world where excellent engineering can already be expected at Rolex level, everything beyond that in terms of price distinguishes itself either by marketing and exclusivity or by the additional handwork of the people finishing the movements and cases. As much as I like AP, it’s an objective fact that they have a strong inclination to favor the former over the latter and this latest effort is no different.

As for your example with the 2121, that’s about the only thing AP does by hand under 50k CHF, so you’re essentially arguing against your own case there. Indeed, even AP seems to believe that a hand finished age old JLC movement is worth more than what they just came out with... and I agree with that.
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Old 10 July 2020, 03:35 PM   #24
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Also, where did you read or hear that the finishing on the 4302 movement (or any AP movement) is done by machine?
From the people who do it. AP doesn’t make much of a secret of it, also, you can see it. It’s obvious at first glance. A diamond cutter gets you an entirely different result as a hand guided touret. But don’t take my word for it, a brief research around the web should get you all you need to know about that. As for the unfinished undersides, you’ll need to take the movement apart. But luckily, someone has done that for you. Check Peter Speake Marine‘s Website for his very instructive strip-down.

Well finished is always a relative affair. Not saying the 4302 is poorly finished. It’s typically AP, which is ok. But it’s not on par with the even better finishing standard of brands that do things with more traditional inclinations and more thoroughly, such as Patek and VC, or Lange, or many independents. And for that, AP‘s pricing expectations are, let’s call them: ambitious. Then again, AP is likely correct in assuming that many people who buy these things won’t care because the movements are either in a RO or people are buying them in the 1159 in order to get an RO... that’s their strategy and that’s fine.
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Old 10 July 2020, 04:34 PM   #25
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From the people who do it. AP doesn’t make much of a secret of it, also, you can see it. It’s obvious at first glance. A diamond cutter gets you an entirely different result as a hand guided touret. But don’t take my word for it, a brief research around the web should get you all you need to know about that. As for the unfinished undersides, you’ll need to take the movement apart. But luckily, someone has done that for you. Check Peter Speake Marine‘s Website for his very instructive strip-down.

Well finished is always a relative affair. Not saying the 4302 is poorly finished. It’s typically AP, which is ok. But it’s not on par with the even better finishing standard of brands that do things with more traditional inclinations and more thoroughly, such as Patek and VC, or Lange, or many independents. And for that, AP‘s pricing expectations are, let’s call them: ambitious. Then again, AP is likely correct in assuming that many people who buy these things won’t care because the movements are either in a RO or people are buying them in the 1159 in order to get an RO... that’s their strategy and that’s fine.
When a steel RO 15500 with a blue dial trades at almost twice as much as a precious metal Code 1159 on the open market with the same movement, it's clearly other factors than the perceived value of the 4302 movement that is the issue.

Obviously you have a higher degree of knowledge of watchmaking and finishing than myself and many others, where I think you go wrong is mixing what "value" is to you and what a watch is worth. Ultimately a watch is only worth what people are willing to pay for it on the open market, and the reason why most people are not willing to pay the 27k (or whatevere it is now) for the Code 1159 is not because of the finishing of the movement.
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Old 10 July 2020, 04:58 PM   #26
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When a steel RO 15500 with a blue dial trades at almost twice as much as a precious metal Code 1159 on the open market with the same movement, it's clearly other factors than the perceived value of the 4302 movement that is the issue.

Obviously you have a higher degree of knowledge of watchmaking and finishing than myself and many others, where I think you go wrong is mixing what "value" is to you and what a watch is worth. Ultimately a watch is only worth what people are willing to pay for it on the open market, and the reason why most people are not willing to pay the 27k (or whatevere it is now) for the Code 1159 is not because of the finishing of the movement.
That’s a fair point if you buy watches for other people (i.e. keep them for a little while before you resell them at what you’d hope to be a profit). Indeed, many people do that because they cannot or don’t want to truly afford a watch. They park the money, but eventually want or need it back and must hence rely on what people are or will be willing to give them for a watch down the road. And to them, as you state, value as perceived by the market is much more important than the actual value of the substance, i.e. how much went into making it and how thoroughly it was made.

Personally, I don’t collect watches for anyone other than myself and perhaps my future grandkids if I‘m ever fortunate enough to get any. When I pay for a watch, the money - in my mind - is gone and it’s thus important to me to get something that has enough substance to justify what I expended for it. But I recognize that such an approach to collecting is very 2005... no longer the gout du jour in a world where all that seems to count is for a watch to be hot and waitlisted.

Would you believe that, back when more people looked at watches the way I do, you’d get discounts on 15202s because they were just sitting at dealers and the 15400 was but the stand in you bought to wear something that looks like a RO while protecting your Jumbo from inevitably breaking if you’d take it out into the world too much?

But you’re right, my views are entirely personal. I’m not entirely sure I ever said otherwise though, nor do I believe that I confused an informed opinion on substance with a watch‘s market value or the multitude of factors informing the underlying demand.
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Old 10 July 2020, 06:20 PM   #27
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That colour is pretty awful
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Old 10 July 2020, 08:54 PM   #28
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That colour is pretty awful
You need to be the type to rock it... but it’s a nice option for those who might want to break out of the eternal blue. I’m not sure it’d work for me either though, more intrigued by the burgundy one.
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Old 10 July 2020, 09:02 PM   #29
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A hard pass from me. This is the biggest brand miss for the whole line-up from a major manufacture I can remember.
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Old 10 July 2020, 09:45 PM   #30
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The overseas you get in the high teens is not a gold watch though to be fair. The gold one is significantly more expensive. But going off something like the traditionelle automatic with its 1120 (possibly the best version of the JLC 920) or the patrimony self winding with it’s beautiful 2450, 27-28k gets you quite something elsewhere. And the same goes for the 5227, which while seemingly simple is a beauty of a watch not just under, but also because of its half hunter case. Last but not least, the 6006 must also be considered at this price point. It may have controversial looks (not unlike the 1159), but its 240 movement is hard to argue with.

So you really have a series of fantastic options to underpin your pricing argument. Hope you will be successful and post images soon

Wait a minute... is this Tim Mosso? Either way, thanks Nav. Really thoughtful look at movements which is something that I at times overlook. I will be researching your comments.

You just revived an old flame I have with the 6006. My one issue is the black dial which is just ok (there I go being superficial). I really wish it was caramel brown in rose gold case like a gorgeous one off Calatrava I saw for the PP AD store in Switzerland: Zigerli+Iff, 5153.

The good people at K2 Luxury just sold one whip I missed on.


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