ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

blaine mattison · 17 May 2009, 08:56 AM

the bay has listed a 7016 tudor sub. item number 306155322854. the watch appears ok, EXCEPT the crank shaft thats on top of the motor. what i say COME's from personal experience. as a super new newbie once, (just newbie now) that's the one that bit me>>>
seller has great feed back with a return, could be just an oversight.

stevemulholland3 · 17 May 2009, 09:00 AM

links??

blaine mattison · 17 May 2009, 09:05 AM

Steven, i am sorry. i had a good member of TRF email me the how to and i still can't. and if the board say's do not start a new post until i learn how, so be IT.

very respectfully

bobdog377 · 17 May 2009, 09:33 AM

I think this is the listing Blaine is refering to
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-ROLEX-TU...QQcmdZViewItem

idk01 · 17 May 2009, 10:05 AM

jose_and_sister_trading (795)

For Auction is a Vintage & Rare Rolex Tudor Submariner 7016/0 Automatic in Stainless Steel Case Wristwatch

Dial: Original signed Small Flower, Tudor, Oyster Prince 200m=660ft, Submariner, Rotor, Self Winding, T Swiss T. Lumes have aged.

Model: 7016/0

Caliber: 2483

Serial: 623XXX

Movement: Montres Tudor SA, Geneva, Seventeen (17) Jewels

Case Measurement: 48MM lug to lug and 39MM without the crown.

Hands and Markers: All Original.

Bezel: Original. Has faded. Pearl is missing. Can be rotated to any direction.

Crown: Original Crown signed. Screw In.

Outer Side of the Back Case: Logo, Original Oyster Case By Rolex Geneva. Has some small scratches due to wear and age.

Inner Side of the Back Case: Montres Tudor SA, Geneva, Switzerland, Patented, Stainless Steel, 7528, 1.68

Crystal: Original Plastic Glass Crystal. Has some small scratches due to wear.

Watch Condition: Keeping Time.

Please disregard reflection of the camera on the dial.

No box or papers but guarranteed authentic!

Guaranteed Authentic or your money back!

BID NOW BEFORE IT'S GONE!!!

NO RESERVE!!!

HIGHEST BIDDER GETS THIS COLLECTIBLE WATCH!!!

stevemulholland3 · 17 May 2009, 12:24 PM

yeah,I would definitely want to see the other side of that movement as it sure does appear to be one of the chinese copies of the ETA movements..
everything else seems to be alright..

Terry Newton · 17 May 2009, 02:09 PM

They are members here in TRF and there have been other postings in the; "Watch Out" section over the last two years about them.

Terry Newton

PaulRobert · 27 May 2009, 04:30 AM

hello - I'm a new to the world of vintage Rolex and Tudors. As a "newbie" I read this thread with great interest. I was attracted to this 7016/0 on ebay but I guess the threat of fakes keeps putting me off. In my ignorance this one looked good - the aged dial, faded bezel and hands seem to be correct. But then again what do I know. Can anyone elaborate on why you feel this one is a fake or rather has a possible fake movement and if so how would one ever be sure from the pictures. I look forward to reading the responses.

vtime716 · 27 May 2009, 07:01 AM

i think the movement looks authentic. fake movements doesn't look this good. chinese copies of eta movement is of poor quality and is far from this movement. and besides why will a seller put a fake movement on this genuine case, whereby original tudor movement is not expensive ( tudor oyster prince watch).

blaine mattison · 27 May 2009, 08:29 AM

vtime, i didn't say the whole movement. only the top half of the automatic winding devise. the winding weight. the part that has the writing as-montres tudor s.a. geneva-
that writing on the weight was never used on tudors! it is a commonly seen on copies of tudor subs, tudor rangers, and the mid size tudors with the good looking californa dials marked rolex and tudor. i can personal say I HAVE BEEN BURNT with that on the a.w.d. i would of ASS_U_MED that the seller with that feed back and knowledge of watches would of know that too! what puzzles me, that the seller is a member here and the watch wasn't ROUDERED OUT OF HERE on the bay! that part is an exchange only part from rolex. i ass-u-me, that is the reason why that part was put on. i am only calling the winding weight as>>>>>>>>>NOT AUTHENTIC<<<<<<<<<<<<

respectfully,

blaine mattison · 28 May 2009, 11:22 AM

after receiving a message on the automatic winding devise, winding weight i would like to ask the forum there views on the picture of the movement. after owning and trading a feeewwww. i have NEVER seen a winding weight marked like that as being 100% geniune, authentic or o.e.m.

has any on else????????????????????????????????????????????

Orchi · 28 May 2009, 02:19 PM

Err buddies...Orchi is thinking ETA 2483...should have 25 Jewels...
NOT 17 Jewels...

Only ETA 2484...Cal.390 n Valjoux 722 has 17 Jewels...

blaine mattison · 28 May 2009, 02:31 PM

my discussion i have been having with a fellow member is divided. the watch in question, is about the rotor and the movement. tudor never made marks like that on that rotor.
second, the motor number is missing under the balance wheel ( 2483 ).

so i figure ask the forum, the knowledge of one isn't as great as many! inputs please!!!

tudorman8276 · 28 May 2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchi

Err buddies...Orchi is thinking ETA 2483...should have 25 Jewels...
NOT 17 Jewels...

Only ETA 2484...Cal.390 n Valjoux 722 has 17 Jewels...

...should be 25 jewels!

Orchi · 28 May 2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tudorman8276

...should be 25 jewels!

Err buddy Stan...that is correct...!

But by now...the listing has ended with a winning bidder...
yet the watch seems to carry a couple of issues...

1. Incorrect movement...
2. Incorrect backcase cover marking "7528"...possibly also.
3. Case with ref "7016/0" being fitted with "Rose" Gilt Dial...?

So what's next...?

bagel · 29 May 2009, 12:15 AM

I am not sure about the movement .... other than that it looks fine with me.

vtime716 · 29 May 2009, 09:40 PM

i would like to correct that 2483 movement is 17 jewels, not 25. i see many tudor 2483 with 17 jewels. regarding the back case '7528', i believe is to be correct to a 7016 case. i have 3 tudor 7016, all with the back case of '7528'. the dial feet are correct for this movement 2483. it won't fit on a caliber 390. so i think the dial is original to the movement. sorry to disappoint some people, but i think the watch is original with the correct movement and dial. i don't know why some people are trying to prove that the watch is fake, so as to discredit the seller.

vtime716 · 29 May 2009, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blaine mattison

my discussion i have been having with a fellow member is divided. the watch in question, is about the rotor and the movement. tudor never made marks like that on that rotor.
second, the motor number is missing under the balance wheel ( 2483 ).

so i figure ask the forum, the knowledge of one isn't as great as many! inputs please!!!

the motor number is not missing, it is hidden below the balance wheel. who said tudor never made that kind of markings on the rotor? tudor has made 3 kinds of marking on the rotor ( for your information)

blaine mattison · 30 May 2009, 02:51 AM

would you take a picture of all 3, 2483 movements for the 7016 tudor submariners that you own, and please post pictures. back to the original post, the words>>great feedback>>return>>oversight were used. with the position you have taken, it would make ONE BELIEVE that you are or know the seller!!!! hmmmmmmmm

blaine mattison · 30 May 2009, 09:16 AM

I

have been asked to do some research, and my conclusion is the same one i started with. the examples I currently own are the same ones i found ALL over the internet. i interesting note, i never saw a/an example of the one in the post. also in the examples i post are the movements numbers/or shield full and partially visible.

PaulRobert · 30 May 2009, 09:19 AM

As I said before I am very new to all this and the story gets interesting. One assumes that the regular forum members have a great deal of knowledge about these things (markings, jewels etc) and so one is compelled to believe their point of view. This is a common scenario on knowledge-based sites. There has been a proliferation of knowledge - we all know a little about a lot. I took this all one step further and did a deeper search on the net. This watch and all its contentious parts are certainly not very common however I have found other examples and writings that confirm vtime statements. I would very much like to hear from a real Tudor Sub expert who knows all the variations from the late 1960’s especially those transitional models that, like other manufacturers, consume both new and old parts for obvious financial reasons and sold in the less established markets. Just my humble opinion and some detective work. Best regards to all.

blaine mattison · 30 May 2009, 09:53 AM

with the greatest respect. i run in/with the nawcc/wwt show curciut.(so what!) for a couple of years now, I HAVE PUSHED AWAY all those tudors marked as the one in this post. if i am wrong i REALLY need to know.
next, i will need to apologize to ALOT of people. i just would like to see some examples besides the post as MY ONLY reference. until you are face to face with a person/s with maybe equal or greater knowledge and/or experience and they say this watch is NO GOOD, and then i learned!!! within hours at the nawcc nationals it is know that you are the one holding the tudor sub and ranger!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS NO GOOD!!!!!!!!

i just hope i save a super new newbie from losing 2,100 usd YES 2,100 usd after i sold the pair for 400. the person i bought them from. no recourse trade was done at the lobby after hours>>>>>not at the mart (NAWCC)

respectfully

jtmollaneda · 30 May 2009, 11:21 PM

Sending in behalf of vtime

Orchi · 30 May 2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtmollaneda

Sending in behalf of vtime

Err buddies...since you have access to the movements...
please check whether the Auto-Winding Rotor assembly...is interchangeable...
between...ETA 2483 n ETA 2484...

Then...please post your findings in here...TQ.

Orchi · 31 May 2009, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtmollaneda

Sending in behalf of vtime

Err buddies...also please compare the above pics with
the one posted in the eBay listing...
Do you see the difference in the markings on the Rotor...?

Orchi · 31 May 2009, 12:46 AM

Err buddies...in addtion to the above postings...
please post a picture of a caseback belonging to another
Tudor 7016(no date) or 7021(date) Submariner...for
comparison of the stamped markings with this one...
which was posted in the eBay listing...

Orchi · 31 May 2009, 12:54 AM

Err buddies...by the way...Orchi for one does NOT believe in...
any Tudor 7016 that has a ROSE GILT Dial...similar to this...

BUT that's just Orchi's own opinion...only.

For the other believers...of Tudor 7016 that has ROSE Gilt Dial...
they may want to read this posting...in the TRF's library...posted
by Buddy Larry...

(The 1st link in his entries)

http://www.watchlife.com/Uploads/Tudor.pdf

Orchi believes...the Tudor 7016 and 7021...have TUDOR Shield on MATTE Dial...only.

blaine mattison · 31 May 2009, 02:24 AM

wow! i would hate to be the watchmaker/technician trying to repair the movement in post #23>>picture>>3. the import initials of R O W, belong to rolex. the import code is used to identification to identify the house (marker)

looking for that movement in the R O W will be impossilble. also when ordering a watch parts break down list from the AWCI, it will say nothing about rolex. ( i justtttt did one! on that 2484 eta movement in MY post, thank-you)

since the dials are off, would you be kind to take a picture of the front.

stevemulholland3 · 31 May 2009, 07:52 AM

sorry to correct you here orchi but in fact the 7016 did in fact have three dial varients and at least two case varients with one being the so-called "semi-pointed" crown guard case..
there where in fact rose dials that where sold in that reference and it came with two different movements,a 25 and a 17 jewel movement distributed in europe..

bagel · 31 May 2009, 10:25 AM

According to my archive, 7016/0 came with 3 type of dials (1) rose ; (2) shield with mercedez hand ; and (3) shield with snowflake. Also, all the 7016/0 with serial no. of 62x,xxx came with 7528 and 68 stamps on case back, and also came with rose dial.

17 May 2009, 08:56 AM	#1
blaine mattison "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Real Name: blaine Location: memphis Watch: my next find Posts: 1,060	7016 tudor the bay has listed a 7016 tudor sub. item number 306155322854. the watch appears ok, EXCEPT the crank shaft thats on top of the motor. what i say COME's from personal experience. as a super new newbie once, (just newbie now) that's the one that bit me>>> seller has great feed back with a return, could be just an oversight.

17 May 2009, 09:33 AM	#4
bobdog377 "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Real Name: Roland Location: uk Watch: 16600+1603 tt Posts: 273	I think this is the listing Blaine is refering to http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-ROLEX-TU...QQcmdZViewItem __________________ QUI CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES???

17 May 2009, 10:05 AM	#5
idk01 "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Real Name: Dave Location: Australia Watch: DJ16233TT Posts: 18,485	jose_and_sister_trading (795) For Auction is a Vintage & Rare Rolex Tudor Submariner 7016/0 Automatic in Stainless Steel Case Wristwatch Dial: Original signed Small Flower, Tudor, Oyster Prince 200m=660ft, Submariner, Rotor, Self Winding, T Swiss T. Lumes have aged. Model: 7016/0 Caliber: 2483 Serial: 623XXX Movement: Montres Tudor SA, Geneva, Seventeen (17) Jewels Case Measurement: 48MM lug to lug and 39MM without the crown. Hands and Markers: All Original. Bezel: Original. Has faded. Pearl is missing. Can be rotated to any direction. Crown: Original Crown signed. Screw In. Outer Side of the Back Case: Logo, Original Oyster Case By Rolex Geneva. Has some small scratches due to wear and age. Inner Side of the Back Case: Montres Tudor SA, Geneva, Switzerland, Patented, Stainless Steel, 7528, 1.68 Crystal: Original Plastic Glass Crystal. Has some small scratches due to wear. Watch Condition: Keeping Time. Please disregard reflection of the camera on the dial. No box or papers but guarranteed authentic! Guaranteed Authentic or your money back! BID NOW BEFORE IT'S GONE!!! NO RESERVE!!! HIGHEST BIDDER GETS THIS COLLECTIBLE WATCH!!! __________________ *Apprentice to Terry Newton; Superstar and Fake Sleuth*

17 May 2009, 02:09 PM	#7
Terry Newton "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Real Name: Terry Newton Location: Michigan Watch: Rolex TT GMT II c Posts: 6,644	They are members here in TRF and there have been other postings in the; "Watch Out" section over the last two years about them. Terry Newton __________________ Terry Newton; Superstar and Fake Sleuth "Z" SS Date Submariner "Z" TT GMT-Master IIc

28 May 2009, 11:22 AM	#11
blaine mattison "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Real Name: blaine Location: memphis Watch: my next find Posts: 1,060	7016 custom rotor after receiving a message on the automatic winding devise, winding weight i would like to ask the forum there views on the picture of the movement. after owning and trading a feeewwww. i have NEVER seen a winding weight marked like that as being 100% geniune, authentic or o.e.m. has any on else????????????????????????????????????????????

17 May 2009, 09:00 AM	#2
stevemulholland3 Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Real Name: steven Location: tampa bay Watch: 1680 18k sub Posts: 6,673	links??

17 May 2009, 09:05 AM	#3
blaine mattison "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Real Name: blaine Location: memphis Watch: my next find Posts: 1,060	Steven, i am sorry. i had a good member of TRF email me the how to and i still can't. and if the board say's do not start a new post until i learn how, so be IT. very respectfully

17 May 2009, 12:24 PM	#6
stevemulholland3 Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Real Name: steven Location: tampa bay Watch: 1680 18k sub Posts: 6,673	yeah,I would definitely want to see the other side of that movement as it sure does appear to be one of the chinese copies of the ETA movements.. everything else seems to be alright..

27 May 2009, 04:30 AM	#8
PaulRobert "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: England Posts: 2	hello - I'm a new to the world of vintage Rolex and Tudors. As a "newbie" I read this thread with great interest. I was attracted to this 7016/0 on ebay but I guess the threat of fakes keeps putting me off. In my ignorance this one looked good - the aged dial, faded bezel and hands seem to be correct. But then again what do I know. Can anyone elaborate on why you feel this one is a fake or rather has a possible fake movement and if so how would one ever be sure from the pictures. I look forward to reading the responses.

27 May 2009, 07:01 AM	#9
vtime716 Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Philippines Posts: 71	i think the movement looks authentic. fake movements doesn't look this good. chinese copies of eta movement is of poor quality and is far from this movement. and besides why will a seller put a fake movement on this genuine case, whereby original tudor movement is not expensive ( tudor oyster prince watch).

27 May 2009, 08:29 AM	#10
blaine mattison "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Real Name: blaine Location: memphis Watch: my next find Posts: 1,060	vtime, i didn't say the whole movement. only the top half of the automatic winding devise. the winding weight. the part that has the writing as-montres tudor s.a. geneva- that writing on the weight was never used on tudors! it is a commonly seen on copies of tudor subs, tudor rangers, and the mid size tudors with the good looking californa dials marked rolex and tudor. i can personal say I HAVE BEEN BURNT with that on the a.w.d. i would of ASS_U_MED that the seller with that feed back and knowledge of watches would of know that too! what puzzles me, that the seller is a member here and the watch wasn't ROUDERED OUT OF HERE on the bay! that part is an exchange only part from rolex. i ass-u-me, that is the reason why that part was put on. i am only calling the winding weight as>>>>>>>>>NOT AUTHENTIC<<<<<<<<<<<< respectfully,

28 May 2009, 02:19 PM	#12
Orchi Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Malaysia Posts: 2,934	Err buddies...Orchi is thinking ETA 2483...should have 25 Jewels... NOT 17 Jewels... Only ETA 2484...Cal.390 n Valjoux 722 has 17 Jewels...

28 May 2009, 02:31 PM	#13
blaine mattison "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Real Name: blaine Location: memphis Watch: my next find Posts: 1,060	my discussion i have been having with a fellow member is divided. the watch in question, is about the rotor and the movement. tudor never made marks like that on that rotor. second, the motor number is missing under the balance wheel ( 2483 ). so i figure ask the forum, the knowledge of one isn't as great as many! inputs please!!!

29 May 2009, 12:15 AM	#16
bagel "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 605	I am not sure about the movement .... other than that it looks fine with me.

29 May 2009, 09:40 PM	#17
vtime716 Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Philippines Posts: 71	i would like to correct that 2483 movement is 17 jewels, not 25. i see many tudor 2483 with 17 jewels. regarding the back case '7528', i believe is to be correct to a 7016 case. i have 3 tudor 7016, all with the back case of '7528'. the dial feet are correct for this movement 2483. it won't fit on a caliber 390. so i think the dial is original to the movement. sorry to disappoint some people, but i think the watch is original with the correct movement and dial. i don't know why some people are trying to prove that the watch is fake, so as to discredit the seller.

30 May 2009, 02:51 AM	#19
blaine mattison "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Real Name: blaine Location: memphis Watch: my next find Posts: 1,060	would you take a picture of all 3, 2483 movements for the 7016 tudor submariners that you own, and please post pictures. back to the original post, the words>>great feedback>>return>>oversight were used. with the position you have taken, it would make ONE BELIEVE that you are or know the seller!!!! hmmmmmmmm

30 May 2009, 09:19 AM	#21
PaulRobert "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: England Posts: 2	As I said before I am very new to all this and the story gets interesting. One assumes that the regular forum members have a great deal of knowledge about these things (markings, jewels etc) and so one is compelled to believe their point of view. This is a common scenario on knowledge-based sites. There has been a proliferation of knowledge - we all know a little about a lot. I took this all one step further and did a deeper search on the net. This watch and all its contentious parts are certainly not very common however I have found other examples and writings that confirm vtime statements. I would very much like to hear from a real Tudor Sub expert who knows all the variations from the late 1960’s especially those transitional models that, like other manufacturers, consume both new and old parts for obvious financial reasons and sold in the less established markets. Just my humble opinion and some detective work. Best regards to all.

30 May 2009, 09:53 AM	#22
blaine mattison "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Real Name: blaine Location: memphis Watch: my next find Posts: 1,060	with the greatest respect. i run in/with the nawcc/wwt show curciut.(so what!) for a couple of years now, I HAVE PUSHED AWAY all those tudors marked as the one in this post. if i am wrong i REALLY need to know. next, i will need to apologize to ALOT of people. i just would like to see some examples besides the post as MY ONLY reference. until you are face to face with a person/s with maybe equal or greater knowledge and/or experience and they say this watch is NO GOOD, and then i learned!!! within hours at the nawcc nationals it is know that you are the one holding the tudor sub and ranger!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS NO GOOD!!!!!!!! i just hope i save a super new newbie from losing 2,100 usd YES 2,100 usd after i sold the pair for 400. the person i bought them from. no recourse trade was done at the lobby after hours>>>>>not at the mart (NAWCC) respectfully

30 May 2009, 11:21 PM	#23
jtmollaneda "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Philippines Posts: 3	Sending in behalf of vtime

31 May 2009, 12:46 AM	#26
Orchi Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Malaysia Posts: 2,934	Err buddies...in addtion to the above postings... please post a picture of a caseback belonging to another Tudor 7016(no date) or 7021(date) Submariner...for comparison of the stamped markings with this one... which was posted in the eBay listing...

31 May 2009, 12:54 AM	#27
Orchi Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Malaysia Posts: 2,934	Err buddies...by the way...Orchi for one does NOT believe in... any Tudor 7016 that has a ROSE GILT Dial...similar to this... BUT that's just Orchi's own opinion...only. For the other believers...of Tudor 7016 that has ROSE Gilt Dial... they may want to read this posting...in the TRF's library...posted by Buddy Larry... (The 1st link in his entries) http://www.watchlife.com/Uploads/Tudor.pdf Orchi believes...the Tudor 7016 and 7021...have TUDOR Shield on MATTE Dial...only.

31 May 2009, 02:24 AM	#28
blaine mattison "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Real Name: blaine Location: memphis Watch: my next find Posts: 1,060	wow! i would hate to be the watchmaker/technician trying to repair the movement in post #23>>picture>>3. the import initials of R O W, belong to rolex. the import code is used to identification to identify the house (marker) looking for that movement in the R O W will be impossilble. also when ordering a watch parts break down list from the AWCI, it will say nothing about rolex. ( i justtttt did one! on that 2484 eta movement in MY post, thank-you) since the dials are off, would you be kind to take a picture of the front.

31 May 2009, 07:52 AM	#29
stevemulholland3 Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Real Name: steven Location: tampa bay Watch: 1680 18k sub Posts: 6,673	sorry to correct you here orchi but in fact the 7016 did in fact have three dial varients and at least two case varients with one being the so-called "semi-pointed" crown guard case.. there where in fact rose dials that where sold in that reference and it came with two different movements,a 25 and a 17 jewel movement distributed in europe..

31 May 2009, 10:25 AM	#30
bagel "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 605	According to my archive, 7016/0 came with 3 type of dials (1) rose ; (2) shield with mercedez hand ; and (3) shield with snowflake. Also, all the 7016/0 with serial no. of 62x,xxx came with 7528 and 68 stamps on case back, and also came with rose dial.

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