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Old 4 September 2017, 03:35 AM   #31
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Apparently Mercedes and Ferrari have some sweetheart deals as well regardless of the constructors championship result with guaranteed super payments or something. One of the teams leads was talking about that a few months ago and how it's a disadvantage to all the other teams and gives M and F a significant advantage. I think they were taking about how to try to attract new teams, like Haas, into the sport. It was something they hoped would change with the new management of F1. Though I don't really know much about the business aspect of the sport, only what they were saying. If that's also true, it's clearly an unfair advantage.
It seems like they need more of an Indy style shake up with less emphasis on spending hundreds of millions on custom cars and more on driver skill and some old fashioned luck.
It's also odd to me that the whole competition is about the constructors championship but much of the sponsors are loyal to drivers. That's a strange set up.


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One of Bernie's legacies is that Ferrari get paid $100m every season just for turning up. Ferrari themselves are understandably completely resistant to the idea of giving this up. They would argue that they add huge value to the Formula One business as a result of their rich history and legendary status as the premier name in motorsport, so are well worth what is effectively an annual bribe. I'm not aware that Mercedes have a similar deal.

Many would agree with your assertion that Formula One ought to shift to lessen the disparity between the teams and make it more of a driver's formula. To that I would respond in two ways. Firstly, there are plenty of other motorsport categories in which the machinery is more evenly matched and the drivers make more of a difference, e.g. Moto GP (which is brilliant to watch) various touring car championships, IndyCar etc. Secondly, F1 is as much a marketing exercise as it is a sporting competition. The big names use the exposure as advertising to sell road cars. That's basically the reason Merc re-entered the sport a few years back (and one of the prime reasons for the change to hybrid engines as car manufacturers know there is no long term future in thirsty, large capacity engines). It's why they value the constructors championship so highly. It's why they pay Lewis so much - not only is he a truly great driver, his reach on social media spreads the message of the Merc brand to an audience they ordinarily have relatively little traction with. If they couldn't have the opportunity to leverage their vast resources into building a competitive car they wouldn't have come back. Similarly Ferrari is synonymous with F1 and they wouldn't countenance any possibility that they might spend a few seasons chugging along at the back of the grid, which might be the result of a wholesale change in the ethos of F1.

Now you could rightly argue that this is not the way to look at a sporting contest and things may yet change given the new ownership. But I doubt it as the manufacturers inherently have too much power. If the rules are changed too much against the status quo, then they can simply up sticks and leave. Or form a new competition where they make the rules, leaving F1 up the swanny.
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Old 4 September 2017, 04:37 AM   #32
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Good race. Great result for Ricciardo coming from the back of the grid to finish 4th was impressive. Hamilton wins for the 6th time this season and both Mercedes handily beat Ferrari on their home turf.
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Old 4 September 2017, 04:56 AM   #33
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I just hope Mercedes have developed enough to be competitive at Singapore where Ferrari will no doubt be stronger.


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Old 4 September 2017, 06:19 AM   #34
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Apparently Mercedes and Ferrari have some sweetheart deals as well regardless of the constructors championship result with guaranteed super payments or something. One of the teams leads was talking about that a few months ago and how it's a disadvantage to all the other teams and gives M and F a significant advantage. I think they were taking about how to try to attract new teams, like Haas, into the sport. It was something they hoped would change with the new management of F1. Though I don't really know much about the business aspect of the sport, only what they were saying. If that's also true, it's clearly an unfair advantage.
It seems like they need more of an Indy style shake up with less emphasis on spending hundreds of millions on custom cars and more on driver skill and some old fashioned luck.
It's also odd to me that the whole competition is about the constructors championship but much of the sponsors are loyal to drivers. That's a strange set up.


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Mainly Ferrari. As mentioned earlier they get about $100M just for showing up. RB, Mercedes, McLaren, and Williams also get money for showing up but nowhere near the amount Ferrari gets. Even though Ferrari has been crap the past 3 years, they still received more money than Mercedes this yearwho has won everything from 2014-2016.

http://www.totalsportek.com/f1/formula-1-prize-money/
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Old 4 September 2017, 06:28 AM   #35
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That was one of the things I didn't understand about the Haas interview because Ferrari had a bad run and Red Bull was the car to beat not long ago?
Of course if you take away the historical bonuses etc. they might be insolvent? Hard to know. One things for sure, you better have DEEP pockets and and a lot of available cash to lose if you want to break into that game. The extra tens of millions that the other teams get are just one more slap in the face.
It's also interesting that the management company gets 1/2 the profits. Nice skim there.


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Old 4 September 2017, 08:10 AM   #36
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There was an interesting interview with Gene Haas where he was talking about the teams and how Mercedes and Ferrari are a good second faster than everyone else no matter what they do. He felt that there was perhaps some additional advantage that they had because they were experienced automotive manufacturers. You could see his frustration. He even said that unless things changed in some way that allowed conditions such that all the manufacturers at least had a chance to win that he'd have to consider his continued investment in the team.


Gene surprised me with his comments. Was he in a cave the past 5 years before pulling together his team? F1 has always had a few teams with more advantages than the rest of the paddock.

Racing costs money...Winning costs insane money...Dominating requires 10x of Winning.

He must have missed something in that formula IMHO.
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Old 16 September 2017, 11:51 AM   #37
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So, I'm not sure what McLaren accomplishes by switching to Renault engines and Toro Rosso is going to Honda? Porsche rumors and Aston Martin engines for Red Bull?

Enjoy the Singapore Grand Prix!
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Old 16 September 2017, 11:52 AM   #38
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So, I'm not sure what McLaren accomplishes by switching to Renault engines and Toro Rosso is going to Honda? Porsche rumors and Aston Martin engines for Red Bull?

Enjoy the Singapore Grand Prix!
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Old 16 September 2017, 12:32 PM   #39
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i would think that nobody would want to touch Honda with a barge pole. They must be blaming McLaren for their reliability problems. Strange turn of events.
I imagine they must have agreed to invest a lot of money in TR.
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Old 16 September 2017, 01:17 PM   #40
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F1 weekend here in Singapore is a PITA. Part of my commute to and from work is on the actual circuit so they close the road and it takes me an extra half an hour to get home at night.

I've been the past four years but not bothering this time. After seeing the music acts playing this year, it's just as well. Load of

I shall watch on tv though, really hope Lewis extends his lead but he hasn't done too well here recently.
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Old 16 September 2017, 04:42 PM   #41
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So, I'm not sure what McLaren accomplishes by switching to Renault engines and Toro Rosso is going to Honda? Porsche rumors and Aston Martin engines for Red Bull?

Enjoy the Singapore Grand Prix!
The McLaren-Honda partnership has been an unmitigated disaster for McLaren. They're by tradition probably second only to Ferrari in prestige amongst F1 constructors and the sight of their cars pootling round the back of the grid and even worse, retiring from every race has been terrible for their brand. They were starting to worry it might even affect their road car business, which has been very successful recently. So they figure, because they reckon they have a great chassis, that with a Renault engine they can match Red Bull's level next season. Whilst it probably won't make them Championship contenders, they might be challenging for podiums and the occasional freak win. One of the significant effects of that change in grid position means their share of the revenue, which is partially based on standing in the constructors championship, will increase (partially offsetting the huge hit they'll take losing the large subsidy Honda currently provide). All that is better for their business and means they keep Alonso, who otherwise would've been off.

Toro Rosso partnering with Honda is a Red Bull strategy. Their relationship with Renault has been strained to say the least for years (they nearly split the season before last) and RB have been looking for an alternative, though Merc and Ferrari won't supply them engines for obvious reasons. Honda for their part are keen to continue their involvement in F1 so needed a team to supply engines to. So RB figure they'd let the junior team use the Honda next season in the hope that they iron out their problems by 2019, when RB themselves will switch to Honda engines. This now appears to have been confirmed by the fact that Renault announced their divorce from RB after next year. Clearly it's a massive gamble for RB, however it would make them effectively a works team for the first time, which matters to them.
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Old 17 September 2017, 07:09 PM   #42
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Time will tell how competitive McLaren are with Renault power, while they have an amazing history they were slugs with Mercedes power not that long ago! Logic suggests with such terrible power the chassis has improved a lot, think Brawn from the shadow of Honda's last effort (a Merc in the back and a championship resulted).

Personally I think Red Bull will kick their ass next year, and McLaren probably will be doing well to be matching it with factory Renault with Carlos on board. Honda, hard to tell, if they can get it right then Red Bull will certainly take them in 2019 and the cash support from Honda. Would be great to see Porsche or others come in, would be even better if they chuck out the vacuum cleaners in process and bring back some revs and sound. I hope Aston does not get ahead of itself and waste money it does not have on F1. They are starting to get their act together and their SUV will start to fill the coffers alongside the new Vantage. Then again with its hook up with Merc, maybe the Aston will be a Merc in drag and slot into the back of the Red Bull.

Lets hope Renault and in Particular Dan can pull off a win tonight.
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Old 17 September 2017, 09:47 PM   #43
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A few spots of rain!

That should spice things up nicely...


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Old 17 September 2017, 10:16 PM   #44
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Spectacular startline pileup in the wet...!!! Hammy gets thru unscathed...
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Old 17 September 2017, 10:19 PM   #45
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Hammy gets thru unscathed...

Phew!!!



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Old 17 September 2017, 10:20 PM   #46
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Did Vettel cause that initial crash?


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Old 17 September 2017, 10:49 PM   #47
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Did Vettel cause that initial crash?


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I don't think he did. He was hit and spun out afterwards due to leaking fluid if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 17 September 2017, 10:58 PM   #48
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I don't think he did. He was hit and spun out afterwards due to leaking fluid if I'm not mistaken.


Who hit him? Kimi or Max?

It looked like he turned left into the Kimi Max battle meaning one of them had nowhere to go.

Feel sorry for Alonso, he was up to 3rd by the first corner then was taken out.


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Old 17 September 2017, 11:22 PM   #49
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Looked like a usual max situation someone is coming past me I shall block them
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Old 18 September 2017, 03:57 AM   #50
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Looked like a usual max situation someone is coming past me I shall block them
Max was the meat in a Ferrari sandwich. I don't think he had any options when Vettel was coming from his right and Raikkonen drifting into him from his left.

Good win for Hamilton. A bit of a gift really.
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Old 18 September 2017, 05:57 AM   #51
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Looked like a usual max situation someone is coming past me I shall block them
You seriously can't be blaming Max for this one.

If I had to blame anyone, it's Vettal, but it's gone down as a racing incident and I sorta agree with that.
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Old 18 September 2017, 06:12 AM   #52
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You seriously can't be blaming Max for this one.

If I had to blame anyone, it's Vettal, but it's gone down as a racing incident and I sorta agree with that.
I watched it a few times, Raikonnen was coming past and max pulled across on him so they were going to have an accident anyway, I agree completely that Vettel made it a three way by pulling across, which to be fair happens every time with the person on the front of the grid, he could not have seen his team mate going quicker, so it would be classed as a racing incident. Alonso punted in the ensuing mess.

Apart from the first 3 minutes probably the most boring GP of the year. Lets home the new owners do something about the entertainment.
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Old 19 September 2017, 09:03 AM   #53
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You seriously can't be blaming Max for this one.

If I had to blame anyone, it's Vettal, but it's gone down as a racing incident and I sorta agree with that.
Purely on Vettel. He also can't be that stupid in these situations. If Max passes him then who cares. Vettel's only concern should be beating Lewis at this point. Instead his idiotic move basically gift wrapped the WDC to Lewis and WCC to Mercedes.
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Old 19 September 2017, 10:37 AM   #54
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Purely on Vettel. He also can't be that stupid in these situations. If Max passes him then who cares. Vettel's only concern should be beating Lewis at this point. Instead his idiotic move basically gift wrapped the WDC to Lewis and WCC to Mercedes.
He's driving like Lewis did a few years ago. He needs to calm down and realize that he's not going to win every race or the championship without controlling his emotions.
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Old 19 September 2017, 12:20 PM   #55
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The Stewards got it right IMHO. At the start, there were several independent decisions. Some were more optimistic than some of us might have chosen.

As for Seb's focus - it is contracted to be constructor's points. That's what he is paid to gain each race. The WDC is a personal achievement worthy of him, but not the prime objective.

To wit: Lewis' allowing Bottas to regain P3 in Hungary. The team scored the same constructor's points and Hamilton was a man of his word.
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Old 1 October 2017, 09:45 AM   #56
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Another devastating result for Sebastian Vettel during quali. An engine problem saw him not even set a time in Q1 which means he will start from dead last for the race. Raikkonen starting from P2 has a real shot at a win though as the Ferrari seems to have good race pace. Plus, a 60% chance of rain. Should make for a fun race!
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Old 1 October 2017, 10:47 AM   #57
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These complicated engines are robbing us of racing, sort it out Liberty.

And while you're at it sort the aero out so they can follow, is it really that difficult.
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Old 1 October 2017, 11:14 AM   #58
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There was an interesting interview with Gene Haas where he was talking about the teams and how Mercedes and Ferrari are a good second faster than everyone else no matter what they do. He felt that there was perhaps some additional advantage that they had because they were experienced automotive manufacturers. You could see his frustration. He even said that unless things changed in some way that allowed conditions such that all the manufacturers at least had a chance to win that he'd have to consider his continued investment in the team.
I have heard that Haas Automation is going to have one of their F1 and NASCARS at the HaasTEC, on October 10-13.
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Old 1 October 2017, 03:20 PM   #59
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F1 and the top class of world endurance are a mess for largely the same reason. They let the top tiers of sport be about the manufacturers. All the sports were better in earlier years where manufacturers were limited to providing mainly customer cars. If they can find a way to get more of a "control" motor, i.e. set HP / torque etc (much like GTE is in endurance racing) then it is highly likely Cosworth would come back and make a standard motor. Then it would be down to innovative teams and great drivers. Would be great to see all the Aero removed. F1 only EXISTS for entertainment, it is not to cascade technology to road cars or to show how they can now achieve 5mpg using batteries vs 2mpg without it.....Particularly with all the trucks/planes they use. For mine the entertainment value has never been lower.
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Old 2 October 2017, 01:54 AM   #60
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Watching the livestream of Goodwood Revival just the week before last reminded me what great racing was ... skinny cigar hulls, no aero downforce, mechanical drivetrains and engines that would easily overpower those skinny tyres. That was the 60s.

Come 70s everything went winged & wide... ok ok so did Elvis... but that was good racing too.

F1 in the last 10-15yrs... why does it feel like watching Scalextric?
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