How do we explain this to a newbie?

[1675-David]

TBH I never really read the descriptions either but I do get your point, when a seller posts a watch for sale with mottled lume and hands, a dial with an obvious drag mark, marks where the hands have been removed during a service and a couple of random gouges and still insist in calling it "excellent" then something else is going on. Anyone in our community would question such a dial, and avoid said watch, but someone with little experience of the vintage world who has been given the impression that buying the seller is the way to go could be easily fooled. It appears that Jacek has shifted focus from servicing the collector/watch nerd community to taking advantage of the inexperienced.

[RFC]

Will J reply to defend what is clearly an indefensible and misleading posting? To me as an amateur collector following this forum closely I would think that a trusted seller would explain, defend, or retract his listing. To remain silent is to admit of course assuming J is reading this thread.

[Pocosso]

I would stay away.

[Boopie]

Not my cup of tea, but it’s not being marketed to me, either.

I don’t like the look of tarnish on my silver, copper etc. Perhaps I should be prouder of my sterling silver candlesticks, and call what’s covering them “patina.”

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Boopie

I don’t like the look of tarnish on my silver, copper etc. Perhaps I should be prouder of my sterling silver candlesticks, and call what’s covering them “patina.”

In its most literal original meaning, "patina" refers to the discolored outer layer on copper/bronze, so the tarnish on your candlesticks isn't far off. ;-)

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by Boopie

Not my cup of tea, but it’s not being marketed to me, either.

I don’t like the look of tarnish on my silver, copper etc. Perhaps I should be prouder of my sterling silver candlesticks, and call what’s covering them “patina.”

I love a nice patina on silver, and how it sometimes looks blue/purple/yellow depending on...Hmm. Depending on what? Levels of oxidation or something...

Tarnished silver cup (excellent condition ;-):

[Greglaw]

Originally Posted by 1675-David

TBH I never really read the descriptions either but I do get your point, when a seller posts a watch for sale with mottled lume and hands, a dial with an obvious drag mark, marks where the hands have been removed during a service and a couple of random gouges and still insist in calling it "excellent" then something else is going on. Anyone in our community would question such a dial, and avoid said watch, but someone with little experience of the vintage world who has been given the impression that buying the seller is the way to go could be easily fooled. It appears that Jacek has shifted focus from servicing the collector/watch nerd community to taking advantage of the inexperienced.

Albino? I have seen that description. As far as the “patina” sub and “albino” posted here...no thank you. Maybe a good explanation for a newbie is to buy a really nice later model vintage piece...ie. 81/82 5513...78 1675 gmt...enjoy it for a bit...research, read, and think about your next move. Maybe these pieces advertised could be fun or beaters for the wealthy. I like the faded bezels, fascia bezels, the tropical dials...but, it really comes down to taste. And a newbie should be very careful, do lots of research and talk to the folks who really know their stuff. Ie. Springer. Mike Wood. Highlander. Haywood. Talk about what you want. Talk about and look at lots of pictures of vintage pieces. Any so-called newbie shouldn’t even be delving into watches like these pictured for the money asked...otherwise caveat emptor. Same for anyone, really. Don’t buy and then ask if it is ok...that is maddening...as are those posts...do you research first.

I know enough about vintage to be dangerous (to myself ) as I have owned several pieces over the years...be careful, be smart and do your homework. I have been around long enough to see the fads...dial is everything...no, wait, case is everything...wait...crown guards matter...actually it all matters, really, get the best piece you can all around is my thought...but, I am no expert, but a little common sense helps. Don’t spend 20k or more then ask everyone “is it real’ or “what do you guys think”

I love vintage pieces. I am not worried about a little polish. So long as lugs are thick, and crown guards good...and other things are in order, hey I am good. But, that is me. Highly unlikely 30 year old pieces haven’t been tended to. Seriously, who in the 50s, 60s 70s and 80s didn’t have a service and some attention to the watch. Make your own history with it. Carry the torch. That is one Jamoke’s opinion.

[jonscl]

Looks like it’s sold!

[mroberts]

How does that happen to a dial with no damage to the movement/ case/ any other part of the watch? It seems like the dial would have to have been exposed to somewhat extreme conditions compared to many other watches from the same era that we're protected inside the case.

[powerfunk]

This feels like a relevant place to post my album of badly damaged dials with cute names. Quite a few are from Jacek, although I imagine some of them are a bit tongue-in-cheek.

[IgCarr]

Great album, Rob. Thanks for sharing. My question is that unless the dial is stabilized, then the dial will continue to deteriorate. What might look cool today will end up looking less so in a few years. Though I suppose the original seller would just say that the more damage, the more you can get for it when the new owner tries to sell.

[Greglaw]

If you read a man and his watch…you’ll see a cool watch by Grahame Fowler with some history and a pretty beat up dial but a cool perspective…just some food for thought

[Dan S]

Just wait, the day will come soon when dealers will try to convince newbies that repainted dials are really cool and interesting.

"This original dial was repainted by hand nearly 40 years ago, creating a unique style that adds to the historical interest of the watch."

[Dr.Smellody]

Buy low. Sell high.

[jonscl]

Uh oh I just bought one from him... did I get screwed...

[jonscl]

Hm apparently I can't post a link/pics without 10 posts yet

[Andad]

Originally Posted by springer

Paul, I have a different view than you.

For me, the photos depict a damaged dial and anyone with any sense at all would describe it as such and not call it excellent - whether there are photos or not.

Maybe if he said the dial was damaged but still had excellent lume might be acceptable for some, but to call this dial excellent in no way equates to it being in excellent condition - which the picture clearly shows that it is not.

There are many buyers here and elsewhere on the internet, forums, Instagram etc. that are uninitiated and need help when viewing and purchasing vintage. I get questions all the time from newbies asking for help. As an example, a few weeks ago, I helped someone with an issue on a watch he purchased from a supposed reputable seller that had dial lume issues and poorly relumed hands - none of which was disclosed to the buyer. This was not discovered by the buyer for several weeks after the purchase.

So, for me, describing a damaged dial as "excellent" is not proper at all and not good for buyers or the watch community.

Hopefully, misrepresenting watch defects or damage does not become, nor should it become, the standard for sellers as long as they post photos of any such defects or damage without describing the defect/damage in the listing.

I would expect a comment from the seller?

For clarity of their dial evaluation?

[jonscl]

Odd that he hasn't seen/commented yet, no?

[jonscl]

Originally Posted by jonscl

Uh oh I just bought one from him... did I get screwed...

I thought this was a nice representation of a red Mk4 but after seeing this thread, idk?

Thoughts??
https://tropicalwatch.com/watches/gadr

[cm70]

The dial is everything but excellent, it is a fact ….
The rusty dial is not a tropical dial nor it has a “tropical pattern”; the tropical maxi dial Subs show uniformity of the tropicalization OR some stardust. The dial on topic is described in order to catch the not informed people between the lines of truth/appereance/opinability/definitions like too many sellers do worldwide ….
Tropical dial is a real plus … rusty dials with relumed hands (and indexes should be added) are a real and strong minus …

[FrenchBigCrown]

Originally Posted by jonscl

I thought this was a nice representation of a red Mk4 but after seeing this thread, idk?

Thoughts??
https://tropicalwatch.com/watches/gadr

The chamfers look a little odd to me - it may just be the photos though.

[1665fan]

Rust bucket garbage……. Just call it like it is…..”excellent” is the new blanket term all the dealers use…. And fake tropical dials(water damage) is an absolute LIE!!!!!

[brandrea]

This thread has been an interesting read. As a long time admirer of vintage references, I’m always intrigued by the minefield that collectors face.

Personally, I’d go off of the pictures more than any superlatives (pun intended) in making a buying decision. I’d also work with someone I dependent of the seller and extremely knowledgeable in vintage Rolex before making a purchase decision.

[cm70]

It is clear that both the tropic and rusty dials are “damaged” … as well as spiders, stardust etc ..the origin and effect of the damage is different … here is my damaged dial, but not rusty, dial …if I had to describe this dial as a Seller I would state “damaged” with ongoing changes …

[Paulie 50]

I agree with JP. My take on it is that the description can be described as disingenuous, the favourite word of politicians to describe and justify a " white lie " but isn't a white lie just as bad as a black lie? There lies ( excuse the pun) the conundrum.

[saxo3]

How do we explain this to a newbie?

Do not chose "buy the seller" as your first and most important criteria.

[springer]

Originally Posted by jonscl

Uh oh I just bought one from him... did I get screwed...

Not if you got kiss with it!!!

[chocopeluche]

I think a case could be made that the description is fair. My understanding is that "tropical" is a term mostly reserved for gilt dials and the aging their lacquer experiences.

The dial posted by the OP is gilt, and yes it may also have some damage, but "tropical" aging is very common for these even if un-damaged. Its far from a damaged non-gilt dial being marketed as tropical which would be more disingenuous.

Not an expert but trying to look at this from the other side, also TW has some of the best photos around, so its not like they're hiding anything, buyers can see for their own eyes what they're buying.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by chocopeluche

I think a case could be made that the description is fair. My understanding is that "tropical" is a term mostly reserved for gilt dials and the aging their lacquer experiences.

The dial posted by the OP is gilt, and yes it may also have some damage, but "tropical" aging is very common for these even if un-damaged. Its far from a damaged non-gilt dial being marketed as tropical which would be more disingenuous.

Not an expert but trying to look at this from the other side, also TW has some of the best photos around, so its not like they're hiding anything, buyers can see for their own eyes what they're buying.

What’s happened to that dial is not, in any definition, what “tropical” is. It’s damaged. How? Who can say. But, that description is beyond using terms loosely.

[GoWarriors]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I personally think the original watch posted in this thread looks pretty cool.